Mastering ( or not ) landing the M20C

[MQQNEY]

Hi to all, I'm a new Mooney owner, ( but long time devotee ), without a great many hours logged as yet, though I am working to remedy that very enthusiastically. I remember thinking when I started flying my beloved mooneybird that she seemed fairly easy to land, but recently I have bounced a landing, and on another occasion, the nosewheel. The frustrating thing is that I can't identify anything to label "probable cause". I can't say that every landing I've ever attempted has been perfectly executed, but I can say that I HAVE always been aware of what is required from me, over the fence at the right speed, hold off as long as possible, so I'm at a bit off a loss as to what might be the most likely cause of this. I don't want an element of doubt creeping over me every time I turn final. So, if anybody is inclined to offer advice, I'd be much obliged. I'm not sensitive to constructive criticism 

[Oscar Avalle]

The most important thing to do is to keep your speeds under control and of course the attitude. In my case I use 100 downwind, 90 base and 80 final. I then adjust with my AOA the final landing attitude. 

But most importantly, get an instructor and practice, practice and practice. Don't worry and don't get frustrated, you will get it right.

Oscar

 

[PTK]

3 hours ago, MQQNEY said:

...recently I have bounced a landing, and on another occasion, the nosewheel. The frustrating thing is that I can't identify anything to label "probable cause". I can't say that every landing I've ever attempted has been perfectly executed, but I can say that I HAVE always been aware of what is required from me, over the fence at the right speed, hold off as long as possible, so I'm at a bit off a loss as to what might be the most likely cause of this...

There are two things to look at: What are your pattern speeds you're trimming for particularly over the numbers, and at what height above the runway are you transitioning through ground effect and to slow flight. If you're too fast you'll bounce, and if you're on speed but high you'll bounce. Also need to be sure you are actually transitioning with proper attitude and proper speed at appropriate height and allowing the airplane to touch on the mains when it's ready without forcing it. Your aim is to stall it on the mains. To bounce on the mains is one thing but as you know you don't want to be bouncing on the nose. 

Good idea to go out with an instructor and do landings until these things become second nature. And they will!

[Danb]

Seriously consider getting Don Kaye s info on landing your plane, it really is in the stability , proper speed, attitude etc mode. Confidence breeds good landing's

[TTaylor]

Mooney's can be a bit tricky and I found the short bodies to be the most of all.  Landings can be kind of like the yips in golf, you get a few bad ones and it is hard to get back in the groove again.  First check that your air pressures are correct in the tires.  I once over inflated the main tires by about 10 psi and was bouncing my landings until I figured it out.   

In the short body Mooney; stabilization, speed, and trim are critical, but to get back in the groove you might try using less flaps rather than full flaps on a few landings. The older (pump type flaps) tend to put a little more nose down force on the short body and make getting a smooth transition to flair a little difficult.  Try half flaps for a few landings to see if that helps gets your confidence back up, then slowly add full flaps as you get more comfortable again. On the C, I landed most of the time with half to 2/3 flaps compared to full on an electric flap F. 

As others have said if you have an instructor or friend that is a Mooney pilot it is always good to have someone observe your techniques and see if you have developed some bad habit that is causing problems.

[orionflt]

Check a couple of things,

first are you forcing the aircraft down at the point where you feel you should be landing?

if you find you are but your speeds seem to be correct i suggest you have your pitot static system/ airspeed indicator checked, mine was reading low and i was doing the same thing you described. 

If they are ok and your still having an issue find a Looong runway and do several landings but instead of trying to land try to keep the aircraft just off the runway (power off of course)....just keep it flying until it settles onto the runway, this can help you readjust your site picture and will give you a better feel for the aircraft.

Brian 

[MyNameIsNobody]

I used to land NO FLAPS.  Fine with just me.  NOT FINE when loaded.  Now I Land power to idle when runway made and full flaps MOST of the time.  May carry a little power into short final if windy...especially if gusting.

Biggest deal is to hold it in the round out.  Hold it off.  HOLD IT OFF.  Bleed off the airspeed and HEAR THAT STALL HORN IN THE FLARE and HOLD IT OFF SOME MORE when mains make contact.

LET THE PLANE LAND WHEN IT IS READY TO LAND.  Once I started doing this landings have been a non-event.  Sometimes nose transition is quicker, depending on wind.

THEY FLOAT A LOT in the summer in ground effect.  DON'T RUSH IT.  EVER.  So what if you miss the first turn-out?  Greasing landings is awesome and easy if you let 'em land when THEY are ready.

Have fun.

[Yetti]

Try half flaps.

Sight picture.  Before take off sit on the runway visualizing what it looks like.  Then recreate that visualization when landing adding some nose high effect.   My home runway has some pretty good down slope.   I do a little freak out when I have to land on a flat runway.  Then tell myself "you got this"

[Raptor05121]

Don't forget to try no flaps. For the past 6 months of me learning to fly my plane, I have been recently doing 0 flap takeoff and landings. I've learned quite a bit. (Flaps are a nicety to have with weight in the ass on takeoff, and no flaps on landing is good with gusty wind).

[M20F]

Just hold it off till it quits flying.  All the ASI indicates is how many feet of runway you need.  If you force it down or land with excessive sink (you can hold 85mph with 2000 FPM sink or with 100 FPM of sink which is another reason why ASI fixation is bad for landing). 

You also should consider upgrading to an F.  A C is a ranger and thus lands like a bucking bronco.  A F is an Executive which like a Cadillac offers a much smoother ride with a fine retractable step and cigar lighter. 

[gsxrpilot]

Assuming you've got enough runway, I'd try a bit more speed and no flaps. When we fly formation, we have 6000 ft minimum and are over the numbers at 90 knots, power to idle and try to keep it flying but don't touch the throttle. New formation pilots report the smoothest landings ever. Take that experience and use the same technique with proper speed. It worked for me in a C.

[Hank]

A C model is easy to land, but few landings are "great."

I make it easy on myself, 90 mph downwind with Takeoff Flaps; drop gear abeam point to of intended landing and begin descent; 90 mph base, continuing descent; 85 mph on final, slowing to 75 mph by 50' agl (slow an additional 5 mph for every 300 lb below gross); adjust flaps and power as needed to maintain desired glideslope; Throttle to Idle when the runway is made. Then hold it in ground effect, 1-2' agl, and keep picking up the nose until she beeps and sets down by herself.

This is one of my landings along the Ohio River before I moved. I had to add power to level off and clear the trees (holding 700 msl, field is 567 msl), then pulled to idle at that point. This starts as I roll wings level at 500 agl (1100 msl).

Good luck, and happy practicing!

[MBDiagMan]

I am also new to my Mooney and was worried, being a tailwheel putt-putt driver.  When I started asking questions on this forum, there were a few people here that attempted to equate landing a Mooney to advanced brain surgery.  I was very pleased to learn that it is just another airplane with a few things you need to know.  I am no instructor, but I believe that a poor landing is very often preceded by a poor approach.  If you have the proper speed stabilized on final, the likelihood of a bad landing is very low.

[Marauder]

2 hours ago, MBDiagMan said:

I am also new to my Mooney and was worried, being a tailwheel putt-putt driver.  When I started asking questions on this forum, there were a few people here that attempted to equate landing a Mooney to advanced brain surgery.  I was very pleased to learn that it is just another airplane with a few things you need to know.  I am no instructor, but I believe that a poor landing is very often preceded by a poor approach.  If you have the proper speed stabilized on final, the likelihood of a bad landing is very low.

I think part of your good experience with landing a Mooney is probably due to your experience gained as a tail wheel pilot. As someone who "flies" a tail wheel to the hangar, you are more tuned into paying attention to the act of landing. This is in contrast to those us who learned in more forgiving tricycle planes or relied on arrestor cables.

[MyNameIsNobody]

On 4/25/2017 at 9:18 AM, MyNameIsNobody said:

I used to land NO FLAPS.  Fine with just me.  NOT FINE when loaded.  Now I Land power to idle when runway made and full flaps MOST of the time.  May carry a little power into short final if windy...especially if gusting.

Biggest deal is to hold it in the round out.  Hold it off.  HOLD IT OFF.  Bleed off the airspeed and HEAR THAT STALL HORN IN THE FLARE and HOLD IT OFF SOME MORE when mains make contact.

LET THE PLANE LAND WHEN IT IS READY TO LAND.  Once I started doing this landings have been a non-event.  Sometimes nose transition is quicker, depending on wind.

THEY FLOAT A LOT in the summer in ground effect.  DON'T RUSH IT.  EVER.  So what if you miss the first turn-out?  Greasing landings is awesome and easy if you let 'em land when THEY are ready.

Have fun.

F what I said.  No flaps-Go fast-fly it on.  Have fun...