New panel

[amillet]

I dropped our Mooney off at avionics shop today for install of GTN 750, GTX 330 ES, Flight Stream 210 & DAC GPSS. This Mooney was in the shop for new panel with cost > $120K.

[Chocks]

So I'm curious about this in a Mooney. I think in most GA aircraft you lose some money doing the upgrades you want. You might recoup some when you either sell it on, or keep it for long enough for it to appreciate.

Having said that, isn't there a bit of a better situation in a Mooney as far as ROI? That looks like a newer long body, so will that aircraft be worth $75-$100k more with the new - I assume all glass - panel? Would it take long to gain the additional $25k or is that just blue sky, "cost of ownership"?

[gsxrpilot]

Hmmmm... is the money spent on upgrades to my C offsetting the hours I'm flying off the engine?

[donkaye]

Example: 1991 Mooney Bravo.  Bluebook sets value at $150,000.  Add all the avionics you can think of: $100,000 (I actually paid a lot less).  All in at $250,000.  New cost of Acclaim: $700,000 which doesn't include ADS-B In, since it is not available on new Acclaims.  The Bravo is better equipped than the Acclaim.  Bravo is about 20 knots slower than an Acclaim.

If you expect to fly for awhile, do you really care if you could get $250,000 for the Bravo when you would have to pay $450,000 more for an airplane that is not as well equipped?

I think I may have the most well equipped Mooney in the fleet and I didn't pay anywhere near $120,000 net for the upgrade.

New equipment:  G500 with SVT, GAD43e, GTN 750, GTN 650, GMA 35, GTS 800, GDL 88, GTX 330ES, GDL 69A, Flight Stream 210, WX 500, MVP 50, ESI 2000, Alpha System Eagle AOA with Valkyrie HUD.  I kept the KFC 150 AP, the KN 63 DME, and the Miniflo-L Fuel Management System.  Not shown is the Aera 796 that I have on the yoke for Approach plates, secondary XM weather and radio, back active and passive traffic from the GDL 88, secondary backup AI from the Flight Stream 210, and quick access to other functions.  As soon as the ESI 500 becomes available, I am going to swap out the ESI 2000, so if someone knows who would want one, let me know.

 

[Chocks]

That panel is kickass!!

Shane

The Squawk Shoppe

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[carusoam]

When my panel grows up, it wants to be like DK's.

Tons of flight data available at the push of a touch screen, including weather and traffic. Things that weren't even thought of in the analog days.

A whole lot better than having a book of approach plates to thumb through in IMC. Ever drop the book and lose the page while flying?

Somewhat better than a whole bunch of portable devices.

The nice thing here is there are choices. You don't need a high end IP to fly in IMC. A low end one is expensive enough.

Now, turning to the magic of math...

My instrument panel has been largely unchanged since the day it was born 20 years ago.

If it were to cost 120 AMUs to get something similar to DK's. That would be $500 each month for the next 20 years.

Difficult to afford when you are young, have kids in school, and a mortgage.

Less difficult when you are older, kids have moved out, and the mortgage is paid.

Our government accounting office has calculated the monthly cost of each child to be approximately 1amu per month up to age 18. Getting one out of the house frees up enough cash to afford a fancy IP and a hangar to keep it in.

I have a few more years before the kids leave.  So I am still in the planning phase.

Best regards,

-a-

[Bob_Belville]

I spent 50 AMU, net, 3 years ago for a new panel (on a 50 year old M20E). GTN 750, Aspen Pro 1000, JPI EDM 930, GDL 88, GTX 327, GMA 340. (I kept STec 50, Stormscope 900, KX 155, GPS 696.) This year I added CYA100 AOA.

My old Mooney gives me great pleasure every time it takes me somewhere. This month it is getting new windows and McFarlane throttle & mixture cables. When my heirs sell it it will be worth what it's worth. 

[Danb]

Don your panel is awesom and exactly why those of us with the bastard GX type plane feel totally scewed by Mooney, my only recourse is to spend 50-60 grand which is looking better all the time or stick an experimental tag on my plane and make the changes as explained by a Garmin ex. on the condition on anatomy. Been playing the waiting game for a few yrs. one dilemma is if I did go ahead with the new GFC and waas upgrade would I actually recoup the discount on my plane which currently exists. Another problem as I see it ,it seems as though I'd have to send my plane to Mooney for the upgrades, I did not do that five yrs ago when I had the funds allocated in fear Mooney would go in bankruptcy while having my plane in there custody.  I'm still in favor of a class action suit but would need enough other Mooney GX drivers along with me, it seems our attempt at applying pressure has fallen on deaf ears.

 

[PTK]

Dan, can you change to experimental? And what's involved?

What's the downside if any?

 

[ryoder]

As far as I know you cannot simply go experimental.  There is EAB for builders and exhibition is what the 172 with a Corvette engine has.  Exhibition has limitations and you have to plan to take it to air shows etc.. 

To me the ultimate panel is two G3X touch screens with remote com, nav, transponder.  Those can be found in RV10s and this RV9.

[Danb]

Peter, I'm not sure?  I have not done any research except a remark from the Garmin engineer who mentioned in off cheek. Frustration starts to make one reach for solutions. The main issue is still the fact that Mooney has left us in a bind. In good faith are lot of us bought the GX models new or near new prior to the big waas push and no knowledge of Adsb. When I purchased my plane Mooney actually did not lie, the info was that the plane was waas upgradeable that's true but at a ridiculous cost for the benefit, that basically is a complete change from an auto pilot  system that works great to the even better Garmin GFC. I don't see the benefit cost wise to the change in autopilots? Every time I reach out to Mooney it's the next quarter they will have some half ass solution.

 

 

[Danb]

The person I was dealing with just got back to me with the answer to my experimental request from the fsdo and it was clear I could not do it for all practical reasons. That's now out of my misguided thought process. Back to wait and see. 

[Guest]

I purchased my 1965 M20E with an upgraded panel that was paid for by the previous owner.  It features an Aspen Evolution 2000 with synthetic vision, Avidyne TAS605 traffic displayed on the glass, Weather,  S-Tec autopilot slaved to both the digital HSI and the Garmin Gns430W.  G496, GSL30, GTX327, PMA8000b audio, custom yoke, JPI 700.  The panel was designed and installed by Aerotronics of Billings Montana.  The previous owner invested 75K in the panel.  I recently purchased this aircraft and paid less for the entire aircraft than the cost of the avionics. (and the aircraft has many more improved features as well)   I'm posting this because there was some discussion regarding return on investment.  I think that while there is some added value by upgrading, you may or may not see all that money come back. In my sellers case, only 20% of the invested value was realized.  I think we modify and improve our aircraft because we love them.  I will continue to improve this aircraft and enjoy it until I can't anymore or until I buy something different.  Hard to put a ROI number on that.   Its a labor of love and like Bob said, when its sold, it'll be worth what its worth.  My panel isn't nearly as nice as those posted on here.  You gentlemen have some AMAZING panels on here that are VERY impressive! The beauty of these new glass avionics is they're upgradeable and that's REALLY important with the pace that technology is changing.

[Marauder]

I purchased my 1965 M20E with an upgraded panel that was paid for by the previous owner.  It features an Aspen Evolution 2000 with synthetic vision, Avidyne TAS605 traffic displayed on the glass, Weather,  S-Tec autopilot slaved to both the digital HSI and the Garmin Gns430W.  G496, GSL30, GTX327, PMA8000b audio, custom yoke, JPI 700.  The panel was designed and installed by Aerotronics of Billings Montana.  The previous owner invested 75K in the panel.  I recently purchased this aircraft and paid less for the entire aircraft than the cost of the avionics. (and the aircraft has many more improved features as well)   I'm posting this because there was some discussion regarding return on investment.  I think that while there is some added value by upgrading, you may or may not see all that money come back. In my sellers case, only 20% of the invested value was realized.  I think we modify and improve our aircraft because we love them.  I will continue to improve this aircraft and enjoy it until I can't anymore or until I buy something different.  Hard to put a ROI number on that.   Its a labor of love and like Bob said, when its sold, it'll be worth what its worth.  My panel isn't nearly as nice as those posted on here.  You gentlemen have some AMAZING panels on here that are VERY impressive! The beauty of these new glass avionics is they're upgradeable and that's REALLY important with the pace that technology is changing.

Can you zoom in on the Aspen being displayed? Looks like you got stuff I like to see closer. Thanks.

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[Guest]

The Aspens have multiple functions and can be customized.  The left is the primary flight display and the right is the multifunction display.  I can show you a couple of photos that are closer up but there are quite a lot of variations and it would take several images to cover them all.  If you're looking for a closer up image of what is being displayed in this picture, I can shoot one for you in this configuration on my next flight or take a short video for you.

[DXB]

22 minutes ago, Barcho said:

The Aspens have multiple functions and can be customized.  The left is the primary flight display and the right is the multifunction display.  I can show you a couple of photos that are closer up but there are quite a lot of variations and it would take several images to cover them all.  If you're looking for a closer up image of what is being displayed in this picture, I can shoot one for you in this configuration on my next flight or take a short video for you.

I think Marauder is just trying to welcome you into the fairly exclusive "dual Aspens in a vintage Mooney" club.  I wonder if you guys have other stuff in common too...do you like bigger ladies? 

[Guest]

ha ha ha ha     I'm sure we have LOTS in common.  I like my women like I like my Mooney's.  Short, sweet, fast and lean!

 

[Marauder]

The Aspens have multiple functions and can be customized.  The left is the primary flight display and the right is the multifunction display.  I can show you a couple of photos that are closer up but there are quite a lot of variations and it would take several images to cover them all.  If you're looking for a closer up image of what is being displayed in this picture, I can shoot one for you in this configuration on my next flight or take a short video for you.

I'm an Aspen 2000 owner as well. Just curious what is displaying on the MFD. Never saw a magneta circle before and can't tell what's displaying next to the AI in the MFD.

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[mitch0537]

WOW!!! I hope you are getting a hell of a lot more that a 750, 330 ES, Flightstream, DAC GPSS and a new panel for $120K. Did you shop around?

[Marauder]

WOW!!! I hope you are getting a hell of a lot more that a 750, 330 ES, Flightstream, DAC GPSS and a new panel for $120K. Did you shop around?

I think the picture that was posted by amillet was for another Mooney that was having a $120k worth of stuff installed.

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[amillet]

Correct.  My budget is less than 1/4 of that.  The other Mooney was already in the shop in that condition.  

[DaV8or]

2 hours ago, Barcho said:

The Aspens have multiple functions and can be customized.  The left is the primary flight display and the right is the multifunction display.  I can show you a couple of photos that are closer up but there are quite a lot of variations and it would take several images to cover them all.  If you're looking for a closer up image of what is being displayed in this picture, I can shoot one for you in this configuration on my next flight or take a short video for you.

I have often wondered, but never bothered to investigate much because I can't afford the price tag anyway, but are Aspens customizable to get rid of info? Can you basically make a 1000 say into just the glass equivalent of a an HSI and AI? When I look at them I just see way too much crap on the screens. The old six pack is really not bad at giving just what you need to know to fly the plane. 

My AI has tured out to be a piece of crap and lops over crooked about 5 degrees (I bought it new), but the warranty has long expired and I really don't need it in my VFR flying. Of course my HI precesses all the time like all the HIs I have ever known. So I fantasize about a Aspen to take care of these two things, but for the same money I could buy a new car, or remodel the bathroom. I need to keep perspective. I don't know if I'll ever fly IFR again. Just curious.

[Marauder]

2 hours ago, Barcho said: The Aspens have multiple functions and can be customized.  The left is the primary flight display and the right is the multifunction display.  I can show you a couple of photos that are closer up but there are quite a lot of variations and it would take several images to cover them all.  If you're looking for a closer up image of what is being displayed in this picture, I can shoot one for you in this configuration on my next flight or take a short video for you.

I have often wondered, but never bothered to investigate much because I can't afford the price tag anyway, but are Aspens customizable to get rid of info? Can you basically make a 1000 say into just the glass equivalent of a an HSI and AI? When I look at them I just see way too much crap on the screens. The old six pack is really not bad at giving just what you need to know to fly the plane. 

My AI has tured out to be a piece of crap and lops over crooked about 5 degrees (I bought it new), but the warranty has long expired and I really don't need it in my VFR flying. Of course my HI precesses all the time like all the HIs I have ever known. So I fantasize about a Aspen to take care of these two things, but for the same money I could buy a new car, or remodel the bathroom. I need to keep perspective. I don't know if I'll ever fly IFR again. Just curious.

Yes, you can remove things on the display. For those who prefer the mechanical ASI and altimeter, you can turn off those fields on the AI. The HSI can have features minimized as well. Also, if you suspect you are only going to do VFR only, you can purchase the VFR PFD version. It can be ungraded through software to a full capable unit at a later date.

When I replaced my steam with the Aspens I was in a bit of data overload. Now I find that when I am in a steam only plane, I find it uncomfortable at having to look at multiple instruments for the same information.

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[Guest]

Marauder is right.  The displays can be customized and items can be turned on and off.  The airspeed tape on the left and the altitude tape on the right can both be turned off to display just the attitude indicator.  The HSI can display the waypoints under it and those waypoints can be zoomed in and out to make things much less congested.  The HSI can also convert to arc mode in situations where you need a more zoomed in view.  These are the pro versions and as Marauder mentioned, there is also a basic VFR version available.  In the one image, I have ONLY the synthetic vision turned on showing approaching Eugene Oregon and terrain.  Normally, in an area of more traffic, the aircraft would be displayed here too.  Again, I have the MFD uncluttered in this example for simple VFR navigation. 

[Marauder]

As the owner, you can turn off the tapes if you still have the mechanical gauges. And the altitude and airspeed notification selection fields can also be shut off by the avionics shop.

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