Touch and Go's

[Releew]

Over the past few months I have read...... it's a bad idea to use a Mooney to practice T&G's.........   I do not understand the reasoning.  I have about 1K hours in several types of aircraft and have practiced this maneuver several times.  I sincerely believe it makes us better pilots especially when practicing in crosswind conditions. My Instructor has several thousands of hours in various aircraft..  Lots of them are in J model Mooney's.  I mentioned this to him and he didn't understand the reluctance either.......  

 

Sure it takes additional coordination of systems, but is there something beyond perfecting the skill set?  

 

What are the concerns?

What am I missing?

 

Thanks,

Rick

[Danb]

Rick, not sure I always practiced t&g's not so in my M model..I just returned this week from a MAPA flight training in Roanoke for 3 days and in the syllabus it is prohibited. I asked a Master instructor there and his response was there are to many variables that could occur and therefore they strongly recommend against it, I also went to Flight Safety when I bought my Bravo in 2005 and they also would not allow touch and go's.

[Hank]

The instructor groups, like most of us in many walks of life, are led around by the insurance companies, who are deathly afraid of risk (whether they understand the risk or how to properly mitigate it or not). You've seen the regurgitation here: touch and go is risky, don't do it. But landing is risky, too, better minimize those. Taken just a couple of more steps, flying is risky, don't do it.

[Cris]

T &G's are a hot topic most recently discussed in this thread. Mooney Down- botched go around under the General forum

[DAVIDWH]

My POA specifically recommends against it.

 

I still remember my FAA check ride in a 160hp twin Cessna where I was asked to do a single engine touch and go.

 

The only way to survive that one is max power with good engine on final, hit the runway, bounce and ascend on one engine. Trust me,  you make a lot of friends with those beautiful tree tops.

 

Still don't understand why, but single  engine touch and goes are no longer required on FAA check rides.

 

Rumor has it, something to do with the high mortality rate of FAA examiners.

 

Of course it can be done, and maybe it should be done,  but a lot to reconfigure in a short period of time.

[carusoam]

Back in the day...

When renting somebody else machine by the hour, TNGs made economic sense for the renter.

More practice landings per hour. No 1/2 mile taxi back to the active while Mr. Hobbs keeps tabs...

As a Mooney owner...

Three T/O and full stop landings happen pretty quickly compared to a C152. We climb to pattern altitude much faster!

Using the first turn off is the bonus of precision.

Any more than that, I would be fighting some level of exhaustion, things don't get any better for landing #4 & 5...

I also have all day. I don't have to put the keys in anyone else's hands.

In summary, TNGs have...

- increased risk of running out of runway.

- higher level risk of not getting configured properly for T/O.

- put an extra strain on the pilot to complete a series of checklist items while accelerating down a shortening runway.

- less value for a Mooney owner.

That's my take on it. It makes for a good pilot's choice.

YMMV,

-a-

[Marauder]

Over the past few months I have read...... it's a bad idea to use a Mooney to practice T&G's......... I do not understand the reasoning. I have about 1K hours in several types of aircraft and have practiced this maneuver several times. I sincerely believe it makes us better pilots especially when practicing in crosswind conditions. My Instructor has several thousands of hours in various aircraft.. Lots of them are in J model Mooney's. I mentioned this to him and he didn't understand the reluctance either.......

Sure it takes additional coordination of systems, but is there something beyond perfecting the skill set?

What are the concerns?

What am I missing?

Thanks,

Rick

I think the main concern is the amount of force required to push the nose down with full power and full flaps. Even in an F, the forces can be pretty hefty.

[carusoam]

A very good reason for Mooney specific transition training!

-a-

[dsking001]

Risk vs Reward. This is never as simple as it seems. My experience is surely different than many others, but I tend not to do many t&g's in my Mooney. Here is my breakdown of reasoning. I fly several different airplanes and I would much rather take the risk of wearing someone else's equipment out rather than mine. I realize this is a pretty selfish thing to say, but I just can't afford to replace broken equipment that fails due to fatigue of use. Gear movement in a Mooney, or any other complex airplane, has a lot of moving parts and switches. 20 year old joints will eventually become 60 year old joints and I would just assume not wear them out before they retire. Additionally, I think the number of times you expose yourself or your airplane to a critical phase of flight, the more opportunity you have to break something.

 

So, reward... Yes you must practice and be as proficient as you can in your airplane. This includes the landing phase. Most accidents happen during this phase. I think you should be able to hand your airplane in gusty days, big crosswinds, stressful weather, etc. This doesn't happen on its own. You will be less likely to crack your plane if you are comfortable in those situations. Sadly, I don't think there is a magic number you must reach to obtain this proficiency. I do, however, believe currency is a better testament to success. If you are out of practice in landings, you should get out and do a few touch and goes before you load up the plane with loved ones and put them in harms way. 

 

FAA Examiners theory... I've been and instructor and pilot evaluator for just over seven years. I will say, flying with someone new, I would rather limit my exposure to death. The landing phase tends to provide me plenty of opportunity to experience this. This is why, if I can assess the pilot as safe, I will do so quickly and move on. This removes stress and opportunity for mistakes for both of us. Win - Win in my book. 

 

Bottom Line. Make sure you are safe to fly. Training is the number one way to do this. Don't be willing to get in an airplane with another pilot that isn't current and qualified. The most recent accidents in my area are caused by lack of currency, not lack of proficiency. 

 

My $0.02,

Dan

[Bartman]

I understand instructors, examiners, and others who feel the risk exceeds the benefits of doing TnGs. That is a personal choice. But that does not mean it is wrong for every pilot and in every Mooney.

My field is 5,500 ft and I can land on the numbers and be configured with my electric flaps and electric trim easily by the 2000 ft mark. That leaves me more than enough time and runway to take off again safely. I continue to find value in doing TnGs on occasion, but don't do it with passengers or an instructor. Since I choose to go up with my CFII twice a year to do an Instrument Proficiency Check, I do practice go arounds with an instructor at least every 6 months. I find value in that too.

Just like personal minimums on an instrument flight, this is about personal choice, and personal risk vs reward assessment.

[Joe Zuffoletto]

Do it if you want; don't do it if you don't.

[Andy95W]

We've seen similar discussions about not doing full stalls, not using flaps on take off, not retracting flaps on landing rollout, not flying lean of peak. Now we're not supposed to do touch and goes... just in case.

I guess I'm not sure when we became afraid of our machines.

Shouldn't a proficient pilot at least have the ABILITY to do these things, depending on the situation?

[Rhumbline]

Over the past few months I have read...... it's a bad idea to use a Mooney to practice T&G's.........   I do not understand the reasoning.  I have about 1K hours in several types of aircraft and have practiced this maneuver several times.  I sincerely believe it makes us better pilots especially when practicing in crosswind conditions. My Instructor has several thousands of hours in various aircraft..  Lots of them are in J model Mooney's.  I mentioned this to him and he didn't understand the reluctance either.......  

 

Sure it takes additional coordination of systems, but is there something beyond perfecting the skill set?  

 

What are the concerns?

What am I missing?

 

Thanks,

Rick

 

Confounding, isn't it?  A little clarification may be in order.  Another recent thread debated the risks surrounding T&G's.  The discussion has examined missed approaches, go-arounds, the reaction of various automated devices to TOGA, landings gone awry (I would describe as a balked landing) and touch and go's - defined in my experience as a training and practice tool. 

 

I'm compelled to reiterate up front that not everyone should be practicing T&G's for a myriad of reasons including, but not limited to inexperience, ability, aircraft complexity, field conditions/characteristics, weather conditions and so forth.

 

The Mooney, for any advantages and disadvantages, is just another airplane.  If you haven't already, learn its characteristics.  Operate it safely, lawfully and within your capacity.  Ignore those who label you an incompetent boob while doing the same. 

 

My advice would be to follow the advice of the guy you're paying to give you guidance.

 

Signed,

 

A Competent Minority or an Incompetent Boob    

[Urs_Wildermuth]

Done plenty of T&Gs in my C model,never had a problem.

[N201MKTurbo]

I've owned a Mooney sense 1984. I've always done touch and goes. Never knew it was a problem until I got to Mooneyspace....

[Lood]

Done lot's  of touch 'n goes - never ever experience any abnormal or even remotely critical situation. Never had the feeling that I was overwhelmed or overloaded by checks, etc and I'm actually airborne sooner than on a normal take off. I guess depends on quite a few factors though.

 

I just wonder how a pilot, that never practice touch and goes in his Mooney, will cope when the day arrives and an unexpected emergency situation calls for an immediate take off after touch down, or even a normal go-around...

If you don't know what to expect from your airplane and how it is going to react in such a situation, it WILL surpise you!

[ArtVandelay]

We've seen similar discussions about not doing full stalls, not using flaps on take off, not retracting flaps on landing rollout, not flying lean of peak. Now we're not supposed to do touch and goes... just in case.

I guess I'm not sure when we became afraid of our machines.

Shouldn't a proficient pilot at least have the ABILITY to do these things, depending on the situation?

You have to answer why are you practicing these maneuvers

T&Gs in case you bounced a landing, or run out of runway, or an animal runs out...

No flap landings in case you have a flap failure or have strong crosswinds

I see no reason for no flap takeoffs...

Full stalls while perfectly coordinated? Chances are if you made the mistake of stalling an airplane, it won't be wings perfectly level and coordinated. Accelerated stalls probably more realistic. I would only practice at 6000' like the POH recommends, and with an qualified instructor.

[Ned Gravel]

I posted a response similar to this in the other forum dealing with this topic. I am posting it here because someone has asked why I would do "touch and goes."  The answer is: I want to practice the FAF to flare as often as is necessary for me to keep that part of the flight regime within muscle memory.  

 

I fly an E with the manual gear, flaps, and trim and have 6000' of 150' wide runway available within 3 minutes of rotation from my own airport.  

 

Full flaps (4 pumps of the flap handle) landings need 6 seconds on the runway after touchdown to retract to T/O flaps and three downstrokes on the trim wheel to take out the trim dialled in for all those flaps. This 6 seconds of runway time at 55 mph is about 500 feet of runway (give or take).

 

3 pumps of the flap handle (30 degrees of flaps) use 2 seconds (and 200 feet) less (including one less downstroke on the trim wheel) and I need no trim adjustments at all if the aircraft is already trimmed for the approach using T/O flaps.  

 

When doing instrument approaches, the default is ALWAYS with T/O flaps unless I break out of the clag real early to do an almost entirely visual approach.  However, while we do not do "touch and goes" when we are training the Mooney Caravan procedures, that is one instance where we do not use flaps for either T/O or landing.

 

I like doing touch-and-goes in my Mooney.  It is a very simply-configured aircraft and allows for touch and go evolutions under these conditions.  I have a runway long enough to remove the problem of trimming for TOGA in visual approaches and the aircraft is already set for TOGA in instrument approaches.

 

Just my 0.02.

[robert7467]

I got my PPL in my Mooney and we did plenty of touch and goes, it has helped me on several real aborted landings while I was going through training.

[jezzie]

I have a J model, and in preparation of transitioning back into flying after a few years of no flying activity I chose to become involved with the Mooney Flight safety program. I attended my first PPP at KPSP. My assigned instructor as well as the other instructors at the course said no to Touch and Go's. Subsequently all practice landings and take offs at this PPP were full stop. Once I felt more competent I did try a few touch and goes after our airport CZVL increased the runway length to 5000 ft.

 

My take on touch and go's is that it does increase the propensity to make an small error or loose concentration.

 

My experienced PPP instructor said that all our landings normally are full stop and in his opinion it is better to concentrate on making that landing the very best you can, taxi back then concentrate on making the best take off the you can.

   

I respect experience.

 

Eldon

[ArtVandelay]

My experienced PPP instructor said that all our landings normally are full stop and in his opinion it is better to concentrate on making that landing the very best you can, taxi back then concentrate on making the best take off the you can.

   

Did you ask what should you do if you bounce a landing or get out of control during the flare?

I was taught if you bounce twice to do a go around, because the 3rd bounce will usually result in a prop strike.

[Ftlausa]

My Mooney transition instructor also said no to touch and go's.  That said, I do them all the time, and I have not had an issue.  My shortest runway for them is 4,000 ft, and I think that would be my limit.   

[Mooneymite]

While I really enjoy these threads, they really go nowhere.  (Flaps on takeoff comes to mind!)

 

It all comes down to opinion (suported and non-supported) which is what makes it fun/non-threatening.

 

In my opinion, T&G's are "a maneuver".  As the master of my craft (at least in my opinion), I take pride in proficiency in all sorts of maneuvers that may be appropriate in some instances, but are not appropriate in others.  However, it's all part of my ownership....being proficient in various maneuvers.  I have done lots of T&G's.  I feel confident that I can do them (well); however, for the most part (just like stalls), I choose not to do them except to maintain proficiency.

 

If you are adamantly opposed to touch and goes, there may be liability issues, there may be proficiency issues, there may just be a mental opposition, so don't tease the animals.  Mooneyspace is a big place, there's plenty of room for both camps.  I'm not sure there is a right answer for everyone, but there is a right answer for you.

[midlifeflyer]

The theory is pretty simple: The risk of doing it wrong outweighs the benefit. A touch & go is just a convenience so you don't have to come to a full stop and/or taxi back when practicing landings. It doesn't really have any other purpose (except maybe showing you can divide attention while rolling down a runway). A touch and go is not a go-around; although it looks like one form of a go-around - one that takes place after touchdown - it's done differently and has an entirely different purpose (unless, of course you treat all touch & goes as emergency maneuver practice and don't reconfigure the airplane until after you take off again)

 

But like so many other things in aviation, risk/benefit becomes a personal choice.

 

BTW, I once handled the case of a touch & go gear-up, Two pilots, complex transition training, CFI on board on the lookout for mistakes.

 

And no, I'm not "against" them.

[chrisk]

I had to wait one time at KPIE while a few (2 or 3) Orion P3's did some touch an go's.  The way I see it, a P3 is more complex than a Mooney, so there is no good reason you can't do touch and go's in a Mooney.  Having said that, it does incur more risk than a full land, taxi back, and take off sequence.  If the winds are calm and the run way long, I don't have issues with a touch and go.  Add gusty conditions, a short runway, and a bad approach.  Then your just asking for something to go wrong.