What is happening in Kerrville?

[Alan Maurer]

I often wonder if there is any possibility that M20 production could start again?  Can't be that everyone wants a Cirrus. 

Does anyone have any news out of Kerrville?

Alan

Ovation N913ND

[Jim Peace]

just a thought....

Its mostly older people that can afford a million plus for a single engine plane.  Maybe its too much money for the time left before aging out with these insurance rates....

Can you get insurance on a fixed gear easier and cheaper if you are older?  

Or is it just based on hull value?

 

 

[Pinecone]

Many companies will not write insurance on above a certain age and retract.

[Fly Boomer]

10 minutes ago, Jim Peace said:

Can you get insurance on a fixed gear easier and cheaper if you are older?  

Or is it just based on hull value?

Retract is part of it.  That said, I have heard that Cirrus insurance is more expensive than Mooney, even taking hull value out of the equation.

[1980Mooney]

17 hours ago, Fly Boomer said:

Retract is part of it.  That said, I have heard that Cirrus insurance is more expensive than Mooney, even taking hull value out of the equation.

If this BWI ad for insurance on a used SR22 is to be believed, it doesn't appear that insuring a Cirrus is more expensive than a Mooney.  $3,124 for Liability and about $250,000 Hull.  Asl @Parker_Woodruff  He will know for sure.

"$2,624 for $245,000 in hull coverage for a qualified pilot and as low as $500 a year for liability only coverage"

Cirrus SR22 Insurance Cost | BWI (bwifly.com)

[Fly Boomer]

9 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said:

If this BWI ad for insurance on a used SR22 is to be believed, it doesn't appear that insuring a Cirrus is more expensive than a Mooney.  $3,124 for Liability and about $250,000 Hull.  Asl @Parker_Woodruff  He will know for sure.

"$2,624 for $245,000 in hull coverage for a qualified pilot and as low as $500 a year for liability only coverage"

Cirrus SR22 Insurance Cost | BWI (bwifly.com)

My guy must be mistaken.

[1980Mooney]

On 6/18/2023 at 9:34 AM, Alan Maurer said:

I often wonder if there is any possibility that M20 production could start again?  Can't be that everyone wants a Cirrus. 

Does anyone have any news out of Kerrville?

Alan

Ovation N913ND

Maybe someone will ask your questions at MooneyMax. And maybe someone will be there from Mooney that is willing to to provide some insight.  But if history is a guide, probably not.

 

[chriscalandro]

The answer to your question is - nothing. 

[PT20J]

37 minutes ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

They are still making parts and providing technical support for our airplanes.  And I am very grateful for that.   

Me, too. The factory was a big help expediting a nose gear leg for me recently. Great people who care about customer service.

[Parker_Woodruff]

17 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

If this BWI ad for insurance on a used SR22 is to be believed, it doesn't appear that insuring a Cirrus is more expensive than a Mooney.  $3,124 for Liability and about $250,000 Hull.  Asl @Parker_Woodruff  He will know for sure.

"$2,624 for $245,000 in hull coverage for a qualified pilot and as low as $500 a year for liability only coverage"

Cirrus SR22 Insurance Cost | BWI (bwifly.com)

That's about right, if the pilot is well qualified.

[KSMooniac]

14 hours ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

They are still making parts and providing technical support for our airplanes.  And I am very grateful for that.   

Maxwell got a roof skin for my J a couple of months ago from the factory... many years after they scrapped all the J tooling!  I'm thankful they were able to bang one out for me, presumably from a long body die.  2 years ago I got new control surface skins, upper vertical stab skin, and outboard wing skins from the factory too.  You bet I'm extremely grateful that I can continue operating (and improving) my 46 year old Mooney!

[MikeOH]

5 hours ago, Parker_Woodruff said:

That's about right, if the pilot is well qualified.

What is the definition of well qualified in this context?

[Parker_Woodruff]

1 hour ago, MikeOH said:

What is the definition of well qualified in this context?

While I didn't run the premium indication given in the link, I'd guess at least 500 hours and instrument rated.  Maybe 750+ or 1000+ total time.  Aircraft hangared in the 48 contiguous states.  No claims history in the past 5 years and pilot under 70 years old.

[MooneyMitch]

5 hours ago, KSMooniac said:

many years after they scrapped all the J tooling!  I

Myth. 

[kortopates]

1 hour ago, 1980Mooney said:

 

As @Pinecone commented above, age is not a pilot's friend, especially if flying a retractable.  I know past age discussions stir up a firestorm here and on BeechTalk - comments like "I am a better pilot today in my 70's than I was in my 20's", comments about being in better physical condition in 70's than Millennials adn Gen Z in general, etc.  Comments that they don't believe there exists any statistical correlation of age and accidents/claims.  Comments of denial in general.

Interestingly there was a recent post on BeechTalk by an older pilot who honestly commented that recently he took off in his single engine retractable and wonder why he wasn't climbing faster and flying faster.  First thought was engine related and thinking about emergency landing.  Then he realized that he forgot to raise the landing gear.  He commented that has begun to notice some seemingly benign incidents of forgetfulness and he finds it troubling.  He is thinking about giving up flying.

@Parker_Woodruff wrote about age and retract in 2020 (below).  Others commented that they have gone to fixed gear as they get older because of insurance in 2022 (below).  Some vociferously commented that there is a market for pilots over 70 and that capitalism should find a way to address it. 

Well the "capitalistic" markets have recognized it and have addressed it.

• If the insurance companies will write a hull policy for retractable and older pilot it will be with higher premiums and higher deductibles (pure capitalism at work - BTW I just got a letter today from my insurance carrier warning me of both at the time of renewal this fall)
• If they won't write a hull policy for retractable, they generally will write one for fixed gear and aged pilot
• Companies like Cirrus, Cessna address this by only selling SEP with fixed gear.

This topic started wondering what Mooney might do in the future.  I suspect a future Mooney, if it ever exists, will be fixed gear for all these reasons but also to keep cost and weight down.

 

 

I don't think there is any truth to the implication that all older pilots near this age cutoff are in denial of getting older and aging. What is disturbing is there is no magic age in years, such as 70, that fairly represents the entire pilot population to suggest 70+ pilots should be forced out of flying complex aircraft. Its entirely subjective line drawn that can't really be backed up with data. But the age group is too small to make it worthwhile for anyone to do anything differently. Not that making such a determination based on medical fitness is the solution, but it would be far more objective and logical, if there was a reasonable way to do so, than pulling a number out of the air like we have now.

Although whenever an older pilot has a fatal accident there is speculation that the pilot had a heart attack or stroke, yet the details from accident reports show us medical events leading to an accident are very very rare with the vast majority of times with it being simple pilot error and/or lack of proficiency.  

Soon we should see the FAA extend the ATP rule for airlines to 67 years from 65. That's a little helpful to aging pilots too. 

[1980Mooney]

4 hours ago, kortopates said:

I don't think there is any truth to the implication that all older pilots near this age cutoff are in denial of getting older and aging. What is disturbing is there is no magic age in years, such as 70, that fairly represents the entire pilot population to suggest 70+ pilots should be forced out of flying complex aircraft. Its entirely subjective line drawn that can't really be backed up with data. But the age group is too small to make it worthwhile for anyone to do anything differently. Not that making such a determination based on medical fitness is the solution, but it would be far more objective and logical, if there was a reasonable way to do so, than pulling a number out of the air like we have now.

Although whenever an older pilot has a fatal accident there is speculation that the pilot had a heart attack or stroke, yet the details from accident reports show us medical events leading to an accident are very very rare with the vast majority of times with it being simple pilot error and/or lack of proficiency.  

Soon we should see the FAA extend the ATP rule for airlines to 67 years from 65. That's a little helpful to aging pilots too. 

“Not that making such a determination based on medical fitness is the solution, but it would be far more objective and logical, if there was a reasonable way to do so, than pulling a number out of the air like we have now.”

- Any suggestions?  It sounds simple but the devil is in the details. 
 

And I don’t see how the ATP rule changes insurance company decisions. They are driven by capitalism, not Congress. 

[ilovecornfields]

The changes seen with early cognitive impairment can be pretty subtle and often are noticed by others before the affected individuals notice them. Some people get into their 90s without significant cognitive impairment and others don’t make it past their 60s. I’m general, the risk of cognitive impairment increases as age increases. That’s just a fact, just like the risk of stroke increasing with age (you don’t see a lot of strokes in 20 year olds). 

There are certainly tests for cognitive impairment but they’re not very sensitive so you could easily ace the MOCA then land gear up the next week or get overwhelmed when flying single-pilot IFR in low ceilings and turbulence.

I always assumed that at some point I would age out of flying. My hope is that I’ll recognize that point before anyone else does. The problem is that some people ignore the signs and despite not so subtle signs of impairment continue flying, maybe rationalizing that by moving into a less complex airplane or limiting the conditions that they fly in they are still safe to fly. That may work out for them until they get caught in a situation that demands their full ability but they just don’t have it and unfortunately in aviation it’s hard to predict when the stuff will hit the fan. 

Correct me if I’m wrong, but a lot of the fatals and gear ups we’ve been seeing recently are from older pilots. Maybe that represents the age of the average GA pilot going up in general but I think there’s more to it then that. If I was an insurer and I could draw a line somewhere that would decrease my risks and increase my profits I probably would. They’re there to make money, not because they are your friends.

[Parker_Woodruff]

Our society wants to govern by the exceptions, rather than generalizations.  Yes, there are two people you know in their 80s that are better pilots than 90% of the fifteen pilots in their 50s that you do know.  The truth is those are the exceptions.  But there, generally speaking, aren't economies of scale for the exceptions when it comes to older pilots.

It's rare when there's an accident that "hits home" in the type clubs that we see people talking about age when the pilot was, in fact, older.  Let's not be in denial when these instances come up.  And, in addition to age, we should talk about loss of control in IMC...there are real problems here across the age spectrum...but sadly these problems are likely worse as pilots age.

I've had to have a discussion with an older pilot's friend to make sure he wasn't flying as sole PIC when I noticed he seemed mentally impaired.  Thankfully the friend confirmed he wasn't flying sole PIC.  These aren't comfortable conversations, but some of these conversations could stop accidents.  By all means, the exceptions should keep flying.

I give flight instruction to two pilots in their 80s.  I've noticed a certain humility about them that is the opposite of the mentality I've experienced from other pilots.  Those are the guys I will fly with (provided they also have well-maintained planes).

 

I'm on the receiving end of the senior pilot "firing squad" at most airshows that I attend for Airspeed.  I know what it's like to look at a pilot who is clearly in his 80s as he complains to me about insurance and be thankful he's not flying.  It's the pilot whose wife steps away (and I get the impression it's because she knows he's already blasted whatever hapless insurance broker has been manning the previous 3 insurance booths he's walked up to that day and she doesn't want to hear it again).

I also know what it's like to look at a pilot in his late 70s/early 80s and think: "Man, I can 99% guarantee this guy is an excellent pilot and I'd probably put my family on a plane with him.  It's a shame insurance is a problem for him."

[Parker_Woodruff]

Read the last 3 paragraphs I wrote above.  If you're in your late 60s thru 80s, commit yourself to flying 50+ hours per year (80 or 100 would be better) and get a flight review (and IPC, if you're instrument rated) at least once per year.  If you have skipped a month, grab an instructor and go fly a short cross country dual.  Maybe do some stall recoveries or unusual attitudes on the return leg.

[ilovecornfields]

@Parker_Woodruff, thank you. That was very thoughtfully written and informative.

I’ve unfortunately been in the position to “take someone’s license away” after an event occurs for which I am a mandatory reporter. The person is usually very upset with me but at least one family member usually thanks me. It seems pilots could do a better job of owning their responsibilities - to themselves, their passengers and the public. When we don’t police ourselves, we compel the government, private businesses and courts to do it for us.

[skykrawler]

Single pilot old men are not the only people that forget to raise the gear......

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-4739838/Air-India-pilots-forget-raise-landing-gear.html#:~:text=Pilots suspended after their aircraft,bring up the landing gear&text=Two Air India pilots have,to retract the landing gear.

https://australianaviation.com.au/2022/03/qantas-cabin-crew-flags-pilot-forgot-to-retract-landing-gear/

 

[mike_elliott]

While I do have a dog in this fight, (im 72), I have to say of the people my age, pilots typically are cognatively better off than non pilots my age as a data point. Every week I self evaluate and daily my wife evaluates my mental capacity to be flying, realizing I am aging out and at some point, I will not be of value to the Mooney Community except for a nice party or 2, but enough about me..

Every pilot should fly often with other competent pilots and sincerly debrief the flights to stay tuned up. Notice I didnt say instructors, but it always better if you can find a competent, and in our case, a Mooney specific well qualified instructor as they will be astute in identifying correctable habits and issues that may compromise the safety or proficiency. Not always the case with the freshly minted CFI, but they will get this skillset in time also. We willingly spend a ton of $ on maintenance of our planes but so few on maintaining the most important system in the cockpit, ourselves, and thats just wrong as we are far mor perishable than an AP servo or a rod bearing.

As Parker elludes, the insurance industry cannot use the exception to base underwriting on, but they can and sometimes do use known history and data, both good and bad to affect your rates.

[Danb]

As Mike above well knows I’m in the twilight of my flying career, for the lack of another term, I changed my insurance this year due to age. My prior company warned I would have to go to fixed gear or fly with an instructor. My new company requires an annual IPC, which I do anyway. I attempt to fly at least 100 hours per year, raised my minimums and go over my POH and other guides more. It seems as though the years keep getting shorter

[DCarlton]

I'm in my earlyish 60s.   You guys seems to be making a convincing case to move to whatever aircraft you hope to fly at 70 sooner rather than later.  I expect the next 8-10 years to go by in a flash.  Heck even an LSA could be fun.  

[Parker_Woodruff]

46 minutes ago, DCarlton said:

I'm in my earlyish 60s.   You guys seems to be making a convincing case to move to whatever aircraft you hope to fly at 70 sooner rather than later.  I expect the next 8-10 years to go by in a flash.  Heck even an LSA could be fun.  

LSA insurance can be expensive (sometimes even higher than 6 seat retractable gear aircraft rates).  Be cautious about which plane you choose.

A rule of thumb:

The more common the LSA, the greater likelihood insurance rates will be good.