Should I buy a (this) Mooney?

[mpb]

So here's the story,

I started flying about 20 years ago - bought a Piper Warrior soon after getting my PPL, got my instrument rating and almost 2000 hours later here I sit. Don't ask me how but I've managed to accumulate 2000 hours flying my Warrior, almost all of it cross country with a significant amount of night and IFR. I've got a really nice Warrior - WAAS GPS, modern autopilot, AV30, nice paint and interior, etc - really do not have to do anything with it but fly it. I've literally flown it everywhere East of the Rockies and it's been a blast.

Here's the issue, I'm 55 and would like to double my flying time before I hang up the headset. However,  I wonder if I'm doing myself a favor accumulating all this time in a noncomplex airplane? I've found a mid 70's M20C that intrigues me and I think I could actually buy it for less than my Warrior is worth - the equipment is pretty similar so although the plane is different the "accessories" are pretty much the same. I'm fortunate that much of my flying (70%+) is the same trip of exactly 311 nautical miles which over many years of doing I find I do in exactly 2 hours and 45 minutes so I pretty well understand my mission and the Warrior has done it very well across multiple seasons and years.

So to start with here's the "other" plane - I suspect some of you are going to know the plane and its former owner. Seems like a really cool dude who has left us - how do I know?  Google the tail number and you'll find his obituary - the plane is mentioned in his obituary - anyone who mentions a plane in there obituary has probably taken pretty good care of it. The airframe hours are a little high - but I like airplanes that have been used - I think it's worth around 80K  - what do you think about the airplane and price?

https://www.controller.com/listing/for-sale/219227951/1975-mooney-m20c-ranger-piston-single-aircraft

So now let's talk mission - simply, am I getting that much more with the M20C than the Warrior for my mission? I think the M20C will do the 311 mile trip about 30 minutes faster than my Warrior - while that's an hour each round trip I view that as negligible - do you agree with the time difference. Moreover, how much more expense am I signing up for in terms of maintenance and insurance?

Lastly, what about all the noncomplex time - am I just suffering a pilot inferiority complex -what say you? Final note, I am a strong believer in known versus unknown commodities - thus my dissonance with this situation.

Have at it and thanks in advance folks!

 

 

 

 

[KSMooniac]

Welcome!

You're gonna get a lot of "buy the Mooney" responses from a Mooney forum, no surprise!  I'd say go for it, if for no other reason than you want to and can presumably afford it.  You'll have no trouble selling your plane in this market, and if you slide into this M20C you'll likely find yourself flying more, and to more places, than you could in the Piper.  You mentioned "east of the Rockies" and I'd speculate that the Piper doesn't do well at altitude to let you safely go over/through/into the Rockies.  That C model will.  You'll enjoy the extra speed and range, and expand your flying to all over the country.

It looks like a premium C model to me, and I'd rather overpay just a little to get a premium plane versus a bargain that might eat you alive trying to get it up to spec.  Jimmy Garrison is the #1 resource for buying and selling them, and I suspect it is every bit as good as it seems in the ad.  High airframe time in a Mooney is of very little importance... the wear items can be replaced and there is not a known fatigue issue with Mooneys.  I'd rather have a 10k hour Mooney than a 5k hour Piper, FWIW, assuming good maintenance of course.  Corrosion is the enemy, so a prebuy should always start with that inspection.  Otherwise, you have to replace wear items like rubber donuts on the gear, occasional rod end bearings in the control system or gear doors, engine mount isolators, etc.  

Come on in, the water is fine!

[Hank]

I really enjoy my 1970 C. A 200nm trip is just under 90 minutes, VFR at 7500 or 9500 (my old base to my parents; now I have to dodge Atlanta and it takes ~2 hours via HEFIN).

They are very capable planes. I've been west to Cody, WY; north to Niagara; and south to Ft. Lauderdale (the first VFR both ways before IFR rating). I plan 9 gph and 140 knots, but am generally faster on less fuel; a couple of weeks.back I went exactly 4 hours into the wind (ground speeds 95-105 knots) on 34 gallons, leaving 18 "in reserve."

Welcome, and have fun!

[Schllc]

KS is correct, you are going to hear a lot of opinions. I would say if it was me, after all that time in the piper, I wouldn’t change horses for a small gain. If you were to jump up to a model that really shaved some time off it would make more sense, but for a marginal gain it’s hard to justify. 

[Skates97]

1 minute ago, Schllc said:

KS is correct. Going to hear a lot of opinions. I would say if it was me, after all that time in the pipes, I wouldn’t change horses for a small gain. If you were to jump up to a model that really shaved some time off it would make more sense, but for a marginal gain it’s hard to justify. 

But... there is the "cool factor" when you suck up the gear. 

I'm glad I bought the Mooney right out of the gate so I don't have to go through the choice the OP is considering.  

I agree, a 30 minute gain isn't much. I kicked around the idea from time to time of moving up to a faster Mooney, but to save 30 minutes would cost me another $100k. So I've settled into mine as the last plane I will own and it takes me everywhere I want to go. For the OP it is a straight across (mostly) transaction and that makes it more desirable. The other factor is that with the faster plane the likelihood of stretching the legs out to new destinations instead of the same 311nm trip increases.

[Pinecone]

You say you want to build time.  Since you mainly fly the one trip, a slower plane means more hours.  You really should buy a Champ or a J-3 Cub.  That will push the trip closer to 6 hours each way, so in the same number of trips, you fly more than twice the hours.

Now, if you want to TRAVEL, then you want to buy the Mooney.   That one look nice.  

Whatever you do, do not start running the numbers for a 201/J or even worse, a 252/K. Especially the 252 if you plan on traveling out west in your later years.

[ZuluZulu]

If you want to challenge yourself a little and grow more as a pilot, and possibly venture out on some more far-flung trips, get the Mooney. If you like what you have already, have no interest in longer missions (or would prefer to maximize time-building), and appreciate the peace of mind of a known quantity, keep the Piper. It’s hard to get a plane just how you want it, so don’t change just to change. With that said, if you’re going to step up to an M20C, that sure looks like “the one.” (Subject to a thorough pre-buy of course.)

[Guest]

If we’re going for “cool factor”. Might I suggest this?

https://www.platinumfighters.com/inventory/1964-piper-pa-24-comanche-400/

[Fly Boomer]

47 minutes ago, mpb said:

Lastly, what about all the noncomplex time - am I just suffering a pilot inferiority complex -what say you? Final note, I am a strong believer in known versus unknown commodities - thus my dissonance with this situation.

I bought a Mooney to go fast, but I didn’t have a 20 year relationship with another airplane — and one with no squawks at that.  Most people who buy an airplane have to fight through issues the first couple of years.  You’re young so you have time, but at my age I wouldn’t sign up for all the hassle to get a few knots faster.  That said, I would rather fly than wrench.  Some are the opposite.  The spectrum is evenly populated between those two poles.  TL;DR think through the time you will spend getting a “new” airplane the way you want it.

[PT20J]

24 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

If we’re going for “cool factor”. Might I suggest this?

https://www.platinumfighters.com/inventory/1964-piper-pa-24-comanche-400/

I hear those engines make metal

[hammdo]

I’ve owned a warrior (1974 and did a complete interior, paint, glass, engine) kept it for 4 years and got my private with it. Loved the plane -sold it when I was 39 years old. After building a Velocity and selling it (apart so the new owner could build it his way), I stopped flying. After a life changing event, I decided to get back into flying (18 years off mind you). Flew a Cherokee 180. It was nice but renting - nope. Finally bought a Mooney B, then a C (always wanted a Mooney). Night and day from the Piper.

Now, if you plan any long trips - Mooney. I took the Warrior on long trips and it’s doable. Mooney now gets me there faster, great on gas, dependable. If you plan on flying into your 70s and maybe 80s, keep the Warrior - if you have no complex/retractable time. If time to destination is not important, that is why I’d consider the Warrior. If you plan long adventures, go Mooney…

Health will play a bigger role as you age… Warrior is a solid plane. If you think you’d like a change of pace, go Mooney. I love my Mooney and it gives me everything I want but, if you just want to fly and time to destination is not important, keep the Warrior. 

I’ll assess my choice as I age - if insurance goes nuts, I may have to go liability only or fixed gear. Just something to consider…

-Don
 

 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, PT20J said:

I hear those engines make metal

As long as this is a once in my lifetime occurrence, I’ll be happy.

[47U]

3 hours ago, mpb said:

am I just suffering a pilot inferiority complex -what say you? 

If you’re asking yourself this question, I’d say that you are.  But, a PA-28 is not an inferior airplane.  It’s just that the Mooney is a superior airplane.  A class by itself.

I owned a ‘62 Cherokee 160 for 20 years before my Dad gave up his medical (in 2008) and I flew 47U from the midwest to its new home in CA.  I used and abused the Cherokee.  And it performed well.  I flew it back to the midwest several times.  Even through KERV, once!  But, the satisfaction I get out of flying the Mooney is no comparison to the Cherokee.    

If you have the resources to manage a complex airplane maintenance and insurance, it’s a no-brainer.  You will love flying this airplane.

[David M20J]

While I have been a professional pilot for a little over 10 years; I have only been a plane owner for a year now (take my opinion with a grain of salt), and my first plane was an M20J so I may be a little biased.  I did look at getting a M20C (and flew one), along with a C182 and some pipers.  There are a lot of opinions here that I could quote and agree with and a few people have said it already, but if you have the resources why not.  That said, how much of a gain are you getting, the listing didn't say anything about speed mods so I would assume it doesn't have much.  6k+ hours on airframe might increase your insurance a bit, but overall looks like a nice plane.  If the means are there you can find a J for a couple bucks more if you are willing to search for it.  The other day I did some formation flying with a hangar neighbor with a C model, he was running 24/2400 and I was 21/2400.  My point is if you have the resources and find an older J that isnt too much more, I think you would see a bigger difference.  The guy with the C has also flown back seat in my J and raves about the extra space in the long bodies, so if you plan to carry more than 2 people that might be a consideration.  Some people were saying don't run the numbers for a J/K, but I feel price wise the jump from a nice C to a decent J isn't as much as a J to a K and obviously a C to a K.  I went with the J over the C because it was my first plane and everyone I talked to said I would be wanting a long body after awhile and I found a nice J that wasnt much more than the C I was looking at.  Now if I already owned a plane I think that would be a different story, or maybe not.  Again new plane owner so a lot of this is new to me.

[MikeOH]

If you start thinking about a J, then consider an F...95% of the performance at 70% of the price

[carusoam]

Welcome aboard mbp!

Congrats on your numbers… if you flew a Mooney, you would have a lot less hours in your log book… 
 

1) At 55… you are just past mid race…

2) Why would anyone want to switch horses mid-race?

3) The premise really misses the point… spending more time flying…   THAT’S WHAT CHEROKEES ARE BUILT FOR!!!  

4) Everyone starts in the same boat… Cessna, Piper, and Mooney all sell for about the same price for the airframe… then add paint, instrument panel, engine hours and interior.

You get more for your money getting a Mooney.

5) If your going to swap horses now… pick a decent reason, and go after it!!!

For Speed and Efficiency…

Go Mooney!

 

6) Oddly, at this cross road… start with…

• how many horses your Mooney should have… 180 or 310? (Or the IO720 with 400hp and laminar flow wing…)
• Do you want to cruise the flight levels? (300+ nms… I’d say yes.). Turbo discussion.
• this is a forever-plane right?  Paint, radios, interior… matter.
• Do you want a stable instrument platform?

7) Plan to dump the old girl, but not an even trade…. Add a few more bucks to get the plane that lasts a lifetime…

8) An even trade would leave me feeling like… what did I do that for? Each time a screw goes missing or a piece of 50yr old plastic cracks… first year of ownership of any machine is a pain… new or pre-flown… won’t matter.

 

9) Go Modernized Mooney!   Modern in the way everything has been updated the way you like… 

10) Let’s talk money… planes are at peak value lately…  what is the budget we are discussing?

About me… I owned a Cherokee for about a day or two… got a Mooney 20C right after that… 20+ years ago… swapped half way for a faster newer Mooney…

PP thoughts only, not a plane sales guy…

Best regards,

-a-

[hubcap]

My plane has been in the shop since October. First for annual and now for avionics upgrade. Since I hadn’t flown for a while, I flew a Warrior for an hour or so and did some steep turns, stalls and pattern work. I am so spoiled with the handling characteristics of my Mooney. 

Treat yourself. Buy the Mooney. Especially flying IFR…I believe the Mooney is more stable and is a dream to fly approaches with…and it doesn’t fall out of the sky when you chop power. I had forgotten how steep the glide ratio was in the Warrior. My first plane was a Cherokee, so I have flown a good deal in a PA-28 for comparison.

Just my .02

[toto]

7 hours ago, mpb said:

So here's the story,

I started flying about 20 years ago - bought a Piper Warrior soon after getting my PPL, got my instrument rating and almost 2000 hours later here I sit. Don't ask me how but I've managed to accumulate 2000 hours flying my Warrior, almost all of it cross country with a significant amount of night and IFR. I've got a really nice Warrior - WAAS GPS, modern autopilot, AV30, nice paint and interior, etc - really do not have to do anything with it but fly it. I've literally flown it everywhere East of the Rockies and it's been a blast.

Here's the issue, I'm 55 and would like to double my flying time before I hang up the headset. However,  I wonder if I'm doing myself a favor accumulating all this time in a noncomplex airplane? I've found a mid 70's M20C that intrigues me and I think I could actually buy it for less than my Warrior is worth - the equipment is pretty similar so although the plane is different the "accessories" are pretty much the same. I'm fortunate that much of my flying (70%+) is the same trip of exactly 311 nautical miles which over many years of doing I find I do in exactly 2 hours and 45 minutes so I pretty well understand my mission and the Warrior has done it very well across multiple seasons and years.

So to start with here's the "other" plane - I suspect some of you are going to know the plane and its former owner. Seems like a really cool dude who has left us - how do I know?  Google the tail number and you'll find his obituary - the plane is mentioned in his obituary - anyone who mentions a plane in there obituary has probably taken pretty good care of it. The airframe hours are a little high - but I like airplanes that have been used - I think it's worth around 80K  - what do you think about the airplane and price?

https://www.controller.com/listing/for-sale/219227951/1975-mooney-m20c-ranger-piston-single-aircraft

So now let's talk mission - simply, am I getting that much more with the M20C than the Warrior for my mission? I think the M20C will do the 311 mile trip about 30 minutes faster than my Warrior - while that's an hour each round trip I view that as negligible - do you agree with the time difference. Moreover, how much more expense am I signing up for in terms of maintenance and insurance?

Lastly, what about all the noncomplex time - am I just suffering a pilot inferiority complex -what say you? Final note, I am a strong believer in known versus unknown commodities - thus my dissonance with this situation.

Have at it and thanks in advance folks!

 

 

 

 

Looks like a gorgeous C model.

I have a J model Mooney and a PA-28, and my one recommendation is to get a ride in a Mooney before you make any sort of a decision.  The seating position is much different between the Piper and the Mooney, and while most of us here on MS love the Mooney ride, it isn't for everyone.

A 300 mile trip is cake for either plane, and a half hour savings probably can't justify the switch on its own.  As with most things in aviation, this is more a "want" than a "need" question 

 

[carusoam]

This just in…

An MSer has an M20C listed for comparison…

lotso updates…

-a-

 

[Pinecone]

300 mile trip is just getting started in a Mooney.

My longest so far has been about 800 miles.  About 6 hours with head winds.

Edit - That was non-stop flight.

 

[Hank]

1 hour ago, Pinecone said:

300 mile trip is just getting started in a Mooney.

My longest so far has been about 800 miles.  About 6 hours with head winds.

 

My longest trip was just over 1300 nm each way. Spent a couple nights, did some sightseeing [and flightseeing!] going both directions, with one weather diversion. Good times! Fun trip! I averaged 127 or 129 knots westbound, mostly around 8500 msl, and 151 knots eastbound, mostly around 9500 msl. Had I not been traveling with another plane who needed more frequent fuel stops, my speeds would have been higher . . . .

[Rusty Pilot]

You will not regret buying a late model Mooney C.  I have a 1974 with electric gear.  A lot of plane for the money.  You will love the speed especially in a headwind.

[rickseeman]

You want it. Nothing else matters.

My brother called me saying he wanted a certain airplane. I said, "Well you're 69 years old...it's either now or never." I said, "You're crazy if you don't buy it." Now he texts me every few days and says, "I love my airplane." Anybody can not buy something they want. Don't be that guy.

[Echo]

Yes.  You will find the transition straight forward.  You will love the way the Mooney flies and the speed WILL make you smile  This C looks good and is nicely equipped.  Buy it right and enjoy.

[A64Pilot]

On 1/18/2023 at 6:00 PM, Fly Boomer said:

I bought a Mooney to go fast, but I didn’t have a 20 year relationship with another airplane — and one with no squawks at that.  Most people who buy an airplane have to fight through issues the first couple of years.  You’re young so you have time, but at my age I wouldn’t sign up for all the hassle to get a few knots faster.  That said, I would rather fly than wrench.  Some are the opposite.  The spectrum is evenly populated between those two poles.  TL;DR think through the time you will spend getting a “new” airplane the way you want it.

This,

       The Mooney will burn less fuel, but will cost you more, start looking at insurence costs to start with, if you don’t care for the speed then it’s not worth changing.

People will argue but I think the Warrior is more comfortable, and you have worked the bugs out of it, the Mooney you haven’t.

Mooney is more complex, and complexity cost more.

What the Mooney brings that the Warrior doesn’t is speed and efficiency, but the Warrior is much simpler, easier to maintain and less expensive to own.

So as your not lusting after the faster cruise, I don’t think you really want a Mooney, I think you would miss the Warrior