Airpark property tips?

[Planegary]

Electrical outlets, lots of outlets,I put them every 10 feet around all the walls of my hanger and they have been more useful than I expected. If something was covering an outlet just a few feet away is a spare in any direction and it allows for shorter extension cords as well.

[EricJ]

6 hours ago, Mooneymite said:

We have several homes in our airpark that have the hangar attached to the house; most are detached.  Our local building inspector takes a very dim view of attached hangars.  Even though attached garages with gasoline laden cars in them are okay, somehow an airplane with avgas in it is a "bomb' waiting to explode.

Check with the local inspector and see how thick the firewall has to be.

I looked at a couple places last year (and would have bought one if weren't already under contract), with the living space being a loft over the hangar.   I guess it's all perspective.

[Fly Boomer]

1 minute ago, EricJ said:

I looked at a couple places last year (and would have bought one if weren't already under contract), with the living space being a loft over the hangar.   I guess it's all perspective.

Ala Steve McQueen.

[Will.iam]

14 hours ago, nosky2high said:

Here’s a idea we are working with. https://www.architecturaldesigns.com/house-plans/farmhouse-inspired-barndo-style-house-plan-with-massive-3-602-square-foot-garage-135185gra

The airpark lot(s) we are looking at would face east towards the runway. Instead of the two 16’ RV doors we’d install a 40’ bifold or hydraulic door and have our hangar/shop attached to the house. 
 

The dream of living with our plane(s) is getting closer to reality. 

Check your city tax codes. Having the hanger attached here in texas as opposed to detached “storage space” makes a huge tax difference in property taxes. 

[A64Pilot]

Also check how large you can build the hangar without having to meet Commercial building codes, sprinklers etc, that drives the price way up. I have a 3,000 sq ft hangar and to me that’s fine for two airplanes a couple of cars, and lots of room left over, it has a Mother in law suite with full bath. Now in my part of Fl 2,000 ft is the limit without meeting Commercial specs, I’m Grandfathered in.

The big hydraulic doors seal better and in Summer can be opened up as a huge sun awning, downside is cost. I have folding doors and I don’t think they meet the newer wind ratings, but they do work fine

Install a generator plug in the hangar so you can run the house and hangar in the event of a power loss, 7 to 9KW construction generators are inexpensive but loud, but it’s in the hangar so noise isn’t much of an issue, of course put it outside or leave the door open. I put mine outside and use a 50 amp extension cord, used it once in two years and then only for a few hours, but you never know. But that usage rate doesn’t justify the high buck built in automatics ones.

ICF is about 20% more expensive than concrete block, my house is ICF, the hangar is concrete block, but with an interior dry wall ceiling like a house at 12 ft tall.

I keep it humidity controlled but if it were ICF I could heat and aircondition it, sure you can AC a concrete block building but at twice the power bill of ICF. 

Make sure it’s tall enough for a motor home to fit and put in a couple of 50 amp RV plugs and at least one outside if you ever have visitors. No RV? then that’s your welder plug.

Most it seems as they get older get a motor home to travel and cut back or stop flying, but most go that way and you don’t want to keep one outside or have to rent inside storage because your hangar ceiling isn’t tall enough, even 12 ft is pushing it, original owner had a motor home with air suspension that could kneel down, without that it wouldn’t have fit, and he had to remove lights on that side of the hangar to fit it in.

Personally I see no advantage to attached hangars, only downsides. I guess it may be less expensive to build.

Our house is 1800 sq ft and for me too large, the two guest rooms are just wasted space in my opinion. I think if laid out correctly 1500 is more than enough for two people.

I only want four rooms, Master bedroom, bathroom/ walk in closet. Great room/ kitchen, OK so three.

But I have an office, two guest rooms, dining room, hallway, second bath that in my opinion are wasted space.

The Mother in Law suite in the hangar is ideal for guests, they have their own little house away from you, if they want to watch TV in the middle of the night it doesn’t bother you etc, They can control the thermostat to their liking, make as much noise as they want whatever. it’s more functional than the guest rooms in the house.

Several people have tower rooms for viewing, they are never used and are wasted money in my opinion. There just isn’t much air traffic.

Personally I’d rather put that money in a pool, but I’m in Fl.

With a hangar I don’t think you need a basement. I predict with upcoming economic realities you will have to cut back some things from the wish list and I'd propose the basement and second floor to be on the cut list.

‘If you think this will be the house you grow old in, I’d do things to make it better for old people, even build it with the idea of a wheelchair being able to move around easily, no changes at all in floor elevation, not even thresholds, they are tripping hazards, no door knobs, levers are better, toilets should be tall, but they are easily replaced so no big deal.

‘I wish the builder hadn’t built color co-ordinated bathrooms, the only toilet seat I can find that matches is cheap plastic and $150, and I wouldn’t be surprised if in a couple of years it didn’t exist anymore. You’ll always be able to buy a white toilet, bathtub, sink whatever, that shade of green that’s popular now? maybe?

I’d look real hard at mini split heat pumps , the ones that the evaporator is in the attic so it’s hidden, but variable frequency drive compressors and fans are super quiet and marvelously efficient

[exM20K]

One more consideration from me:  If you live in an area that can flood, and you plan on finishing the interior, do the bottom 2-3 feet of sidewall in greenboard with bagged insulation and a barrier between it and what's above.  When the hangar floods, maybe the greenboard is caulked well enough to keep the interior of the wall dry, maybe now.  But if not, you're replacing 2-3 feet of interior and insulation all the way around three sides of the building and not 14'

-dan

[Mufflerbearing]

On 12/21/2022 at 2:01 PM, KSMooniac said:

K50, Cook Field in Derby KS, just SE of Wichita.  Our lot is on a shared residential road/taxiway with a short part to the north end of the paved runway.

I saw an amazing house/hangar there for sale.  It looked really appealing.

[Ron McBride]

I would suggest 2 double outlets per 10 feet, they should be gif’s also, 4 feet off the floor.  A dedicated compressor in a self enclosed closet, for noise control.  If you are in a potential flood area, have the concrete footings come up at least 6” above any expected flooding, or raise those floors and a tug to pull the plane in and out.  
 

 

[Pinecone]

2 hours ago, Ron McBride said:

I would suggest 2 double outlets per 10 feet, they should be gif’s also, 4 feet off the floor.  A dedicated compressor in a self enclosed closet, for noise control.  If you are in a potential flood area, have the concrete footings come up at least 6” above any expected flooding, or raise those floors and a tug to pull the plane in and out.  
 

 

Hmm, that is what I said I did.

Quad outlet every 4 feet.  Installed 48" above the floor.

By code, they must be GFCI protected, and in many jurisdictions Arc Fault protection will be required.

[smccray]

It’s all systems

plumbing- I love having a circulation pump on the hot water, but it does increase the cost. Look at a timer for the circ pump.  Absolutely no plumbing on outside walls. Hose bibs come down from above with a separate shut off. Drain the hose bibs supply lines after you shut off the valves.  A hot and cold hose bib is an inexpensive addition when you’re building from scratch, and hot water from a hose is awesome.

electrical- wire a sub panel for a generator. Talk to people in your community for best practices. Sump pumps, av equipment, garage doors, etc- choose wisely. We went with the largest air cooled unit to save budget over a water cooled unit, but that requires choosing circuits strategically.  Separate from the generator, think about plug / switch locations for any holiday lights and landscape lighting.

insulation- we just remodeled a stick built house and foamed the house (open cell). I love it for the stability of the temperature in the house.  Lesson learned- spend more money on air sealing and less on HVAC.  
 

hvac- worth investigating radiant heat.  Not applicable down in Texas so I don’t have any personal experience, but the story is that anyone that has lived with radiant heat won’t live in a house without it.  We have added electric radiant in bathrooms, but for whole house you probably want water.

sips/ alternative structure- choose a builder with knowledge of the systems (including foam/ generators/ plumbing systems/ etc) that you’re using. If the contract doesn’t have experience, you will have more knowledge on the new system than the contractor. What’s the point? You will kick yourself- I know we made some mistakes in this area.  You’ll end up with a better product tweaking a builder’s normal approach vs introducing a new product (e.g. stick build but modify using foam insulation instead of sips with an unfamiliar builder).  

Gas- can’t help with the decision on cooking appliances, but burying a huge propane tank to supply gas appliances and a generator is a fantastic option, albeit an additional expense over all all electric.  I’m assuming you don’t have natural gas.

low voltage- Smurf tube is cheap- let’s you get to the back of your tvs if you ever need too.  If you want powered shades, wire for it up front.  Screen innovations has a great product.  I hate trusting wireless connections and category cable / rg6 coax is cheap.  Running fiber optic hdmi through the Smurf tub after construction is a piece of cake.  Paradigm contractor grade speakers are absolutely fantastic, but they know it and they’re priced accordingly.

Check out Matt Risinger on YouTube.  There’s some good info there, but it’s promotional content disguised as education.

the biggest challenge is the multitude of choices of what to do.  You sit down with a blank piece of paper and on a custom build you can do anything you want to do. 
The breadth of choices is perhaps the biggest challenge to making final decisions.

bring your wife with you to TX next time and we’ll sit down over a glass of wine.  Merry Christmas!

[Z W]

I got pretty far into a hangar design last year.  First question I have not seen you answer - Steel or wood construction?  For a 60x60 hangar you can do either, but most contractors will either do one or the other. 

Depending on materials prices and the size of the building, it can actually be cheaper to do steel.  The wood frame option will likely be what they now call "post framed" construction which is using posts made of 3 laminated 2x6's.  Then you have engineered trusses across the top.  Again, either wood or steel.  It honestly may be more of a preference than a monetary or design decision, as both can be done in a code-compliant manner.  Do you want a red iron look, or a wood framed look?  Wood can be easier to insulate with the traditional pink rolls.

Speaking of hangar size - Scale out a drawing of your 60x60, and then of a Mooney, plus whatever other guest planes you envision you might one day host, RV's you may want to park inside, trucks, cars, etc.  Print them out on scaled paper, or do it in CAD.  You can then spend as many hours as you want moving hypothetical objects in and out and around in the hangar.  Draw in the lines for your living space in the back, posts, etc. where you can't park stuff.  It will help you understand how large the door needs to be for what you want.  Remember that 4' of clearance on a door is only 2' on each side, which doesn't feel like much when you're pushing on the nose of a plane trying not to clip the wings.

In reality, hangars are designed structurally around the door.  Each has different requirements and I'm told it all affects the wind load.  Choose your door size before sending the plans off for bids on the building package.  Bi-fold doors hang from the building and require a very heavy (expensive) steel header to support their weight, with lots of cross-bracing to take the side load of the door.  Hydraulic doors instead put the weight down the posts at the side where the hydraulic arms attach, putting far less stress on the building, but at the requirement of some concrete piers in the foundation.  The hydraulic is less overall cost for this reason, but again, you need to choose the door before you spec and price the building and the concrete.  Looks like you've already started this, but I found bi-fold quotes came in "cheaper" because the door company was not supplying the header.  Once you added in the additional building material cost it was not any less money.  They also require the building to be taller for the same door clear span, which adds a lot of material costs.  Just raising the overall height by 2' can be tens of thousands of dollars.

Even if you don't plan to heat the hangar, you still should consider pouring the slab on insulating foam and putting pex pipes in it for future heating.  Impossible to do once it's poured.  Many are heated with residential water heaters that are very inexpensive to run and maintain.  Some codes may prohibit this.  Leave room in the floor plan for a boiler room where the pipes come up.

Don't forget floor drains in the hangar, and maybe a power, water, and/or compressed air box or two set in the concrete in the middle of the building.  It will take a 30' cord or hose just to reach the middle of the floor from any wall.  60' if you're trying to reach something parked against the other wall.

[Pinecone]

You can also put the electrical and compressed air and water in overhead reels.

[Mooneymite]

@KSMooniac any progress on your airport property?

[KSMooniac]

Not so far!  We've got months and months of designing and planning ahead this year before we start trying move dirt and get after it!  I'll likely float some renderings for the peanut gallery when we get far enough along to share something.

[carusoam]

Some people buy a nice house with an attached hangar…

Others build a nice hangar with an attached house…

-a-

[Mooneymite]

7 hours ago, carusoam said:

Some people buy a nice house with an attached hangar…

Others build a nice hangar with an attached house…

-a-

Some people overlook the fact that you are building into a community.  Not all communities are happy places.  In a few communities, the bickering is louder than the airplane noise.   In my opinion, the smaller communities can be tighter communities, but in a small community, one jerk can have an overwhelming effect.

[Canadian Gal]

Slight thread hijacking in ...3...2...1...

 

Do heated floors cause long term issues with tires?

[hammdo]

Not sure about heated floors but I use flatstoppers for long term …

https://www.raceramps.com/car-storage/ramps/p/flatstoppers/

keeps tires in good shape. 

<highjack-off/>

;o)

[KSMooniac]

2 hours ago, Canadian Gal said:

Slight thread hijacking in ...3...2...1...

 

Do heated floors cause long term issues with tires?

I can't imagine they would... they're certainly much, much cooler than any outside parking in the summer.  I think most folks with heated floors in garages or hangars set them around 50°F and that is enough to make the space tolerable enough for reasonable working conditions.  I hope to know soon myself!

[A64Pilot]

Steel or wood hangar?

Every one in my neighborhood, about 90 is concrete block, with a shingle roof. The house and hangar match in construction style.

My house is Insulated Concrete Forms and the hangar concrete block, I would have liked the hangar to be ICF as then it would be easy to heat and cool, keep it say 80 in Summer and 65 in Winter.

ICF is about 20% more than block, but the R value of block is 1.x and ICF is at least R22.

The one piece hydraulic swing up door is best for many reasons, but I think is most expensive too. Mine are fold up doors.

[KSMooniac]

19 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

Steel or wood hangar?

Every one in my neighborhood, about 90 is concrete block, with a shingle roof. The house and hangar match in construction style.

My house is Insulated Concrete Forms and the hangar concrete block, I would have liked the hangar to be ICF as then it would be easy to heat and cool, keep it say 80 in Summer and 65 in Winter.

ICF is about 20% more than block, but the R value of block is 1.x and ICF is at least R22.

The one piece hydraulic swing up door is best for many reasons, but I think is most expensive too. Mine are fold up doors.

Undecided on hangar construction at this point... ideally I would love to do ICF on both structures, and have a congruent/matching style.  I have some ideas but haven't purchased an architect-lite package yet...hopefully in the next few weeks that will start.  I absolutely love old WWII era timber-frame hangars, but doubt I could duplicate that style in our build, but maybe some wood trusses might be possible?  We'll see.  I don't want block construction and that might not even be allowed here, nor is a pole barn style. I want great insulation for year-round comfort since I've spent many, many hours freezing and sweating in my rental muni hangars over the last 16 years.

[carusoam]

There isn’t a way to get the floor hot enough to cause a tire’s rubber construction to fail…

This summer we saw temps hot enough to light creosote coated rail ties on fire… in NJ!

Ignition temp of creosote is 800°F…. Not sure exactly how this happens… but the local railroad had their fire watch going for a few days…

pavement gets too hot to walk on, barefoot…

There will be A bunch of safety issues as the temperature rises… solvents and flammable things….

See if @M20Doc is around… I think he has a solar heated floor in a Canada based hangar…

PP thoughts only,

-a-

[Guest]

I heat my 8000’ shop with a hydronic floor.  It’s really nice, even heat everywhere, The boiler is 200,000 BTU and the size of a bar fridge bolted to the wall and very efficient.  Spend the money on extra under slap and frost wall insulation, I wish I’d have put in more.  In the coldest weather the boiler is making 100* water.

[Canadian Gal]

16 hours ago, M20Doc said:

I heat my 8000’ shop with a hydronic floor.  It’s really nice, even heat everywhere, The boiler is 200,000 BTU and the size of a bar fridge bolted to the wall and very efficient.  Spend the money on extra under slap and frost wall insulation, I wish I’d have put in more.  In the coldest weather the boiler is making 100* water.

Now that is a shop...8000 square feet is my goal someday.

[Pinecone]

Around here, most hangars seem to be 10,000 square feet (100 x100)/.

Mine home garage/shop is only 1,000 sq feet, but it was limited by zoning laws.

But it has a lift.