Garmin's Repair Model and Pricing: Because: Screw you, Mr. Customer... we can

[Tony Starke]

On 4/15/2021 at 11:30 PM, Ragsf15e said:

If you do a major upgrade, what autopilot are you going to use?  Garmin has the only approved new technology autopilot out there and it requires their display to run.  In my opinion (which is worth it’s price), it’s not worth doing a full fledged upgrade without a full function autopilot.  Couple that with good integration of Garmin units... what other options are there in the same ballpark that are approved for our aircraft?

I’m keeping my Stec 50 with my trusty Stec TC. 

[Ragsf15e]

2 hours ago, Tony Starke said:

I’m keeping my Stec 50 with my trusty Stec TC. 

Ahh, good choice.  Mine has been solid too.  Not as much new technology/modes as the gfc500, but definitely good.  Only thing that gives me pause is that it will eventually die and possibly be harder to get parts for.  Right now there’s nothing out there to replace it with unless you go with a Garmin panel/gfc500. Some folks have combined a g5 with an aspen to run a gfc, but it’s kind of kludged together.

[Brent]

On 4/15/2021 at 6:47 PM, Tony Starke said:

I am in the planning stages of a major panel upgrade. Based on comments here in the past, I was shying away from big G. This confirms my decision.    

I'm in the same boat. I have a mixed panel now with Aspen, Apollo and Garmin plus an S-TEC 30 autopilot. I looked at Avidyne, Aspen, Garmin, Genesys/S-TEC, PS Engineering, et al. I decided to go with all Garmin. I have a lot of respect for Avidyne and Aspen, and I was keen to use a Genesis autopilot so I could use the same servos. But in the end, I just like the features that Garmin offers, and I also wanted lower risk on the integration. They were all going to be expensive packages once I got past one or two boxes. So even though I'm leery of being "boxed" in, I'm going with Garmin. This is my first and last plane, and I expect to fly it another 10-15 years, so I'm getting what I want now. I hope they won't obsolete me to death, but we'll see. (I'm actually more worried about having access to affordable (well, viable, anyway...) 100LL gas in 5-10 years.)  

[RJBrown]

My favorite Garmin story.

bought a car portable gps from Garmin. Ad said, Box said “Lifetime Database Updates” All in big bold letters.

Fine print defined “lifetime” as 5 years. Inside box hidden until it was too late.

you suck Garmin. 

[donkaye]

"You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink".

 I hope everyone who complains about Garmin enjoys their non Garmin products.  Having not used any of them, I am happy NOT to complain about them.  I've been dealing with Garmin since I bought their first aviation GPS, the GPS90.  I won't go over all the many things Garmin has done for me to make things right when I had some issue with a product that I bought from them.  That even included replacing an Area 796 that was 7 years out of warranty due to a software update issue they couldn't solve.  Since my GFC 500 was one of the first to be installed in a Bravo, when I had my problem with it, they did something they never do and probably never will again.  They allowed me to come to Olathe on my way to Oshkosh a couple of years ago to investigate the problem.  I flew with the pilot who certified it and they agreed something was wrong.  We landed and opened up the back panel to investigate.  They immediately saw that a couple of brackets that supported the pitch trim servo were missing.  Whether they were not include in the kit or were left off by the installer made no difference.  They sent me to an approved avionics shop on the field and had them installed.  I offered to pay and they declined the offer.  I offered to pay for their lunches, and they declined that, too.

Last week I sold my Aera 796.  I had just purchased a separate year's database subscription for my new 760.  The 796 was attached to my OnePac subscription.  During the process of exchanging the 796 subscription with the 760 subscription the support agent found some of the databases were out of sync with each other on my OnePac.  He not only synced them, but gave me an extra month on the subscription.  

Because I have an integrated Garmin System,  I got thousands of dollars in rebates, by buying at rebate time (Oshkosh).  I stayed up to date on the latest products (G500 to G500 TXi and GTN to GTN Xi) with discounts on the update.  I have many other "good news" stories that I could share.

So everyone who wants to bad mouth Garmin be my guest.  If you've had problems with them I'm sorry.  But no amount of talk is going convince me that they are not one of the best companies in the Avionics field.  I have had too much long term experience to the contrary.

[Andy95W]

4 hours ago, Brent said:

I'm in the same boat. I have a mixed panel now with Aspen, Apollo and Garmin plus an S-TEC 30 autopilot. I looked at Avidyne, Aspen, Garmin, Genesys/S-TEC, PS Engineering, et al. I decided to go with all Garmin. I have a lot of respect for Avidyne and Aspen, and I was keen to use a Genesis autopilot so I could use the same servos. But in the end, I just like the features that Garmin offers, and I also wanted lower risk on the integration. They were all going to be expensive packages once I got past one or two boxes. So even though I'm leery of being "boxed" in, I'm going with Garmin. This is my first and last plane, and I expect to fly it another 10-15 years, so I'm getting what I want now. I hope they won't obsolete me to death, but we'll see. (I'm actually more worried about having access to affordable (well, viable, anyway...) 100LL gas in 5-10 years.)  

I was very much the same.  For years, I have wanted an Aspen/Avidyne combination that would interface with my STEC autopilot.  Every OSH I would stop by both booths to get brochures, learn about updates, and ask questions.

When it came time to buy, I went with dual Garmin G5’s and a new Garmin GPS because I could get the capability I wanted for fewer dollars.  Also- it was the easiest avionics installation I’ve ever done, the interface diagrams and installation manuals were exceptional, and everything just worked.  The slowest part of the process was (is) teaching myself how to use all of the equipment to its fullest.  And if I ever want to upgrade, I have a path to do so.

But there’s a part of me that still wants that Aspen and Avidyne combination.

[M016576]

54 minutes ago, donkaye said:

So everyone who wants to bad mouth Garmin be my guest.  If you've had problems with them I'm sorry.  But no amount of talk is going convince me that they are not one of the best companies in the Avionics field.  I have had too much long term experience to the contrary.

I’m glad that you’ve had a great experience with garmin: and you should for the amount you’ve invested in their products.  For some reason, though, many others appear to not have had as similar of an enjoyable experience.  Hence their “bad mouthing” of the company.

Ive owned 2 430W’s.  They were both reliable- but the user interface was not intuitive.  
 

I owned a 396.  It was pretty nice at the time- but overpriced IMO.

I owned a Aera 560.  It was fantastic... but definitely over priced (as the iPad and flying apps had already become widely propagated).  I did enjoy the ability to use it as a car GPS.  I was able to sell it for about what I paid for it used- so that was nice.

garmin makes reliable avionics from what I’ve seen.  But imo they care more about profits than bringing safety to GA.  Avidyne has a similar price point and they are kind of the only alternative for GA applications.  I’m not sure if that’s because Garmin is setting the price point, or because that’s actually what these units cost to develop/produce.  My guess is the former.  

personally, I have an avidyne because I don’t like the Garmin interface/ecosystem and I didn’t want to be locked in to their EFB product.  Garmin seems to be doing just fine without my money though :p

 

[M016576]

On 4/13/2021 at 12:58 PM, Ragsf15e said:

That definitely sucks.  Sorry to hear.

On the other hand, I recently had a Bose A20 start going intermittently on the microphone.  Free shipping, free repair, free return within one week.  No questions asked.  The A20 was purchased in 2015 by a different person.

Bose is *really* good with their warranty/repair policies.  I had a similar experience with them about 7 years ago with a Bose X.  

[donkaye]

20 hours ago, M016576 said:

IBut imo they care more about profits than bringing safety to GA. 

 

Their Auto Landing System isn't about bringing safety to GA?

[M016576]

1 hour ago, donkaye said:

Their Auto Landing System isn't about bring safety to GA?

How much does this system cost again? Last I checked you had to have a Piper M600, or cirrus vision jet (3+ million or so) to be able to even get this system.  
 

im not saying they aren’t making safety oriented equipment... they are.. I’m saying that they are charging an exceptional fee and their target audience isn’t a C-172 or Mooney M20J owner. The cost alone is a detractor for adoption across the fleet.  Just like waas gps boxes (regardless of manufacturer), sadly.... think about how much safer IFR flight is with a moving map and a high fidelity gps.  Do they really need to cost 16K?  Or is that price gouging?  My iPhone, while not certified for flight, has very similar capability...  if any company could crack the code for *really* focusing on delivering safety oriented products to GA, at a cost that *makes sense* for GA, I’d imagine it would be Garmin.  But the same boxes they install in a 25K C150, are certified for a 2 million king air- the company is merely playing by the FAA’s rules.
 

this isn’t a Garmin problem.  It’s a GA problem.  Old hulls, liability issues, expensive avionics/parts, massive financial barriers to pilot entry and a pilot base that will only continue to shrink so long as this dynamic continues (among other issues).  If you can’t see that, then I don’t know what to tell you.

[ArtVandelay]

You can’t compare prices of iPads which sell by the millions with panel mount avionics that sell by a few thousands.
Then there is the threat of litigation, remember Avidynes indemnification clause?
Given the limited size and environment (turbulence), the user interface is always going to be a comprise of screen real estate and input controls. I like the touch screen interface of the GTNs, but I don’t fly in turbulence very often...thankfully.
Garmin has certified the experimental products allowing us to have a less expensive option.
It seems to me that some people are looking for a reason to hate Garmin, just like some hate Apple. I don’t think threads like this will change anyone’s mind, in either direction.

[exM20K]

10 hours ago, donkaye said:

So everyone who wants to bad mouth Garmin be my guest.  If you've had problems with them I'm sorry.  But no amount of talk is going convince me that they are not one of the best companies in the Avionics field.  I have had too much long term experience to the contrary.

My complaint as the original poster was that because Garmin does not permit field repairs, but rather only exchange or flat rate repairs, a zoom knob replacement cost me $2800 plus shipping plus four hours of labor. That is abusive.

-Dan 

[M016576]

6 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

I like the touch screen interface of the GTNs, but I don’t fly in turbulence very often...thankfully.

It’s nice to have the physical keyboard and knobs as a backup to the touch screen on the avidyne- but I rarely fly in “that kind of turbulence” either.

The F-35 is just one giant touch screen, and it can get a little difficult for data entry when it’s bumpy.  There’s nowhere to support your hands.  At least with the GTN’s, the frame of the unit provides pretty decent support for your fingers to stabilize for data entry.

[Skates97]

10 hours ago, Andy95W said:

I was very much the same.  For years, I have wanted an Aspen/Avidyne combination that would interface with my STEC autopilot.  Every OSH I would stop by both booths to get brochures, learn about updates, and ask questions.

When it came time to buy, I went with dual Garmin G5’s and a new Garmin GPS because I could get the capability I wanted for fewer dollars.  Also- it was the easiest avionics installation I’ve ever done, the interface diagrams and installation manuals were exceptional, and everything just worked.  The slowest part of the process was (is) teaching myself how to use all of the equipment to its fullest.  And if I ever want to upgrade, I have a path to do so.

But there’s a part of me that still wants that Aspen and Avidyne combination.

I was going to go Aspen/Avidyne as well. Even bought an Aspen that I ended up reselling. I have no AP and it doesn't even have the positive control (D's didn't get that) so as I continued to wait on the TruTrack and the GFC500 was no the cusp of being approved for the short bodies I made the decision that I was going Garmin. I already had a GTX335 in the panel which I installed under supervision. I bought dual G5's and a GNC355 and did the install again under supervision. As you said the diagrams and installation manuals are very good. It was slow going because I was double and triple checking everything. When it came time to power everything up it all worked. I also put in a PS Engineering PMA450B at the same time and wiring it to the GNC355 and the SL-40 I already had in the panel was not difficult.

As for learning the equipment, I'm still working on it. With the help of my CFII doing my IFR training, playing with the trainer on my laptop, reading and rereading the pilot guide, and just fumbling around it is coming slowly.

The plane goes in a week from now for the GFC500 and then I will have everything I am looking for in my plane.

[LANCECASPER]

6 hours ago, Skates97 said:

The plane goes in a week from now for the GFC500 and then I will have everything I am looking for in my plane.

Famous last words 

[MIm20c]

8 hours ago, exM20K said:

My complaint as the original poster was that because Garmin does not permit field repairs, but rather only exchange or flat rate repairs, a zoom knob replacement cost me $2800 plus shipping plus four hours of labor. That is abusive.

-Dan 

Not trying to justify what Garmin is doing across the board with repair costs but for the past decade Avidyne and BK have been abusive with repairs on the their flight displays and AP systems.  $3k to test an AP system and not fix anything and $6k plus for display repairs.  Most Aspen repairs are $2k+ and stec has never been cheap to work with. 
 

Should Garmin provide parts like this for the shops to swap? IMO yes, but the g1000 is a very expensive system and if the screen completely failed they would probably charge the same flat fee. 

[PT20J]

I’m curious if Garmin actually repairs and returns units sent in for flat rate repair, or is instead replacing them with a refurbished unit. Garmin replaced my GTX 345 that had a bad AHRS, but that was a warranty issue, so it might be different than a out of warranty repair. But, I could see it being cost effective for them to just swap a unit and throw the bad one onto a refurb line.

If you send in a unit for repair and get back an essentially new refurbished unit, there is value there.

 

Skip

[A64Pilot]

I’ve never seen the same serial number component comeback from Garmin, we were a Garmin dealer and installed quite a few Garmin radios etc., and had more faults from new equipment than I would have expected. We never had a bad Bendix/King, but I’d guess the little sl30’s, 40’s, GTX 327’s etc maybe 10 to 20% had some fault right out of the box.

‘It wasn’t unusual to get a new radio as opposed to an overhauled one as a replacement, especially if it was a newly released product, assumption is that there just wasn’t many returbs available

‘Garmin has a employee discount that can’t be beat, there is some paper work and it has to be bought with a personal credit card, and shipped to your house, but the discount price is significantly lower than what the dealer pays. I believe you can only buy two of whatever radios etc per year and they track that serial number forever, so don’t even think of reselling, you can of course sell it, but I would suppose if you bought it today and it went in for repair next month with a different owner, there would be a problem.

‘If you have a problem with the radio, when you call and they ask for the serial number they know immediately it was bought with an employee discount, and even the repair price is seriously discounted.

‘Now I don’t have any experience with the real expensive stuff, just rack mounted lower priced stuff, and with that there is no getting it repaired from Garmin, whether it’s a $2 switch or the whole thing is fried by lightning or something, it’s the same price.

‘The good thing another the exchange is you get your replacement radio fast.

‘If you have the money to keep your airplane upgraded with new equipment as it becomes available, and your the type that likes shiny new stuff and color displays etc. then Garmin is your company.

‘If your the type that trained on a mechanical OBS and an HSI was the hot ticket,  and as your familiar with it, 40 year old avionics as long as it’s good and reliable is really all you want or need, then Garmin is not your company. Especially if your OK with keeping your Pubs updated, but don’t want to be constantly updating your avionics

I’m old school, retired and can’t pay $20,00o a year to keep up with the latest greatest avionics and honestly am at an age to where I don’t want to.

 

Edited April 19, 2021 by A64Pilot

[mike_elliott]

23 hours ago, exM20K said:

My complaint as the original poster was that because Garmin does not permit field repairs, but rather only exchange or flat rate repairs, a zoom knob replacement cost me $2800 plus shipping plus four hours of labor. That is abusive.

-Dan 

My old business motto was "if you take care of the customer, they will take care of you. If you dont take care of the customer, they will take care of you"

 

[flysamo]

at least it can be fixed, wait until they say we no longer service your unit, then you can fell really bad, RIP Garmin 480 units

[Hank]

3 hours ago, flysamo said:

at least it can be fixed, wait until they say we no longer service your unit, then you can fell really bad, RIP Garmin 480 units

That's when I will put in an Avidyne, a slide-in replacement, rather than build a new wiring harness to "upgrade" to a GTN . . . . Somebody wasn't thinking!

[MatthiasArnold]

Don't know if this G1000 knob replacement kit is still available: Garmin K00-00350-00.
This should be less than the "all-in" repair fee..
If someone already made 3D printer replacement parts - please share the 3D files

Disclaimer: not an Garmin representative or avionics specialist .

Best,

Matthias

[cctsurf]

After Garmin sued UAvionix to stop them from competing, I won't have a Garmin in my cockpit.  (Actually, this is just one instance of Garmin's anti-competitive tactics.)

Some may argue that we have to be thankful that companies throw us in small aviation a bone...  I think we have to be careful not to grab that bone and find ourselves in a trap.  I would argue that Garmin is such a trap.

As stated above, I would prefer Avidyne to Garmin any day, just based on their business tactics.

[LANCECASPER]

1 minute ago, MatthiasArnold said:

Don't know if this G1000 knob replacement kit is still available: Garmin K00-00350-00.
This should be less than the "all-in" repair fee..
If someone already made 3D printer replacement parts - please share the 3D files

Disclaimer: not an Garmin representative or avionics specialist .

Best,

Matthias

@exM20K the link in the above quote goes to Sarasota Avionics and they show a knob kit available

[exM20K]

1 hour ago, LANCECASPER said:

@exM20K the link in the above quote goes to Sarasota Avionics and they show a knob kit available

That's the knobs only, not the electronic interpreter it's connected to, unfortunately.  

thanks.