Time for new engine

[bbakerco]

Hello oh wise keepers of Mooney knowledge,

The time has come to replace the engine in my M20J 201. (IO-360-A3B6D).  It's my first time ever replacing an AC engine so excuse my ignorance.  I'll admit that I did not look through all 175 pages of topics so I'm sure that some answers to my questions are burred somewhere in this monster.  My budget is $30k without additional financing.  My options as I see them are:

1. Buy crate engine from someone like PennYan (other recomendations???) and have it swapped.  Pro: Quick turnaround on M20. Better resale value (although not planning on selling). Financing?   Con: $$$$

2. Have my A&P tear it all down, send out for machining, assembly, etc.  Pro: Lower cost? (but more labor). Con: Slower turnaround.

3. Buy a certified block and have it built up until ready to swap.  Pro: Lower cost? Quicker turnaround.  Con: Frankenmotor?

Is there a 4rd option?  Am I missing any Pros/Cons?  I fly about 15 hours a month so I don't really want to be without the plane for 3 months but if it saves me $5k or more then probably strongly consider.  Successes, Horrors, Regrets with any of the above?  Is my budget about right or too low for everything?

Thanks,

Bryan

[carusoam]

Bryan,

there is one place that gets recommended a lot around here...

High quality, low cost... Great reviews...

You may find that interesting.

Best regards,

-a-

[ArtVandelay]

Why not just have a quality engine shop overhaul it? Or are you looking to upgrade to dual mags?

Probably looking at 3 months.

Buy from the factory is the quickest (1 week for AP to mount it).

Tom

[kmyfm20s]

Tell us about your current engine and why it needs replacement? Where are you located? This way someone can give you a recommendation. 

[Bob - S50]

We are a few hundred hours away from the same decision.  Here is my reasoning:

A.  If we keep the A3B6D engine.

• Get it overhauled locally.
• Get it overhauled by an engine specialty shop.
• Do an overhaul exchange.  That could be Lycoming or a few of the specialty shops.
• The decision comes down to cost, down time, and quality of work (mostly based on reputation).

B.  Switch to an A3B6 engine (my personal preference).

• Probably cannot do that locally, and also probably leaves out many of the smaller specialty shops.
• Do an overhaul exchange as in A above.

C.  Do an overhaul exchange with Lycoming to an IO390.  I don't like the 390 idea because it also involves a different prop which really drives the price up.  And the 10 extra HP means I'll have to get a high performance endorsement because the F15 and 767 I flew aren't high performance.

Also, I personally believe (from what I've read here and other sources) that I'm less likely to get a quality product from Lycoming than a specialty shop.

Whoever does the work, I want to have the engine dynamically balanced.  If the shop can't do that I'll move on.  This kind of eliminates Lycoming.  The engine is not something I want to go cheap on and balancing will make it run smoother, make the ride more enjoyable, and reduce vibration damage to other parts/equipment.

Why keep the A3B6D?  Probably the cheapest way to get an overhaul done.

Why not keep the A3B6D engine?  Getting harder to find parts for the magneto.  When that becomes impossible, the engine becomes a core for a trade in regardless of the hours since OH.

Why OH exchange for a A3B6?

• The exchange minimizes my down time.
• Gets rid of the dual magneto.
• Allows me to get an electronic ignition for one side.
• I believe most A3B6 engines are timed to 20 BTDC vs 25 for the D engine.  I believe this will reduce CHT's, reduce blowby (oil consumption and belly filth), and allow me to operate smoothly at lower RPM's (closer to or over square).

Why not an A3B6?  I believe that the 20 BTDC timing will generate slightly less power when firewalled so takeoff roll will be slightly longer and initial climb will be slightly less.  However, with an electronic ignition, by the time I get up to 5000' I will have recovered that power and will have better performance as I continue to climb.  And of course, it will also probably cost a little more by the time the engine is hung and ready to fly.

[toto]

33 minutes ago, Bob - S50 said:

Getting harder to find parts for the magneto. 

I just learned in the other thread that Kelly now produces brand-new Bendix D-mags under PMA. 

Details from Kelly below and at http://kellyaerospace.com/airplane-engine-products/aircraft-magneto/.

 

BENDIX D2000/D3000 SERIES MAG

Kelly Aerospace Energy Systems is the only OEM to provide new manufactured and service parts for D2000/D3000 magnetos installed on thousands of Lycoming engines.  Our overhauled magnetos are high quality, using a combination of new parts and

In 2018, KAES introduced the completely new manufacture D2000/D3000 magnetos featuring 100% new parts.   Kelly takes pride in that we support 25,000 owners of engines with the Dual magneto and we provide a magneto with numerous key improvements over the original D2000/D3000 magnetos.

• All aluminum frame to replace troublesome magnesium frames. The aluminum frame is stronger, longer lasting and far less likely to crack or corrode like the original magnesium frames.
• All new distributor block and gears. Thousands of these parts have been installed with tens of thousands of flight hours accrued over the past 20 years.
• All new coils, condensers and contact points.

[Lance Link]

May reach this decision soon and I will probably send the engine to Jewell for overhaul.  My MSC wants a factory OH, so we are conflicted.  Just my relatively amateur opinion.

[Hank]

1 hour ago, Lance Link said:

May reach this decision soon and I will probably send the engine to Jewell for overhaul.  My MSC wants a factory OH, so we are conflicted.  Just my relatively amateur opinion.

It doesn't matter what any MSC wants. Tell them each dollar they contribute will get them one vote; after counting the money, you will tell them the winner.     

[Mooney in Oz]

6 hours ago, Bob - S50 said:

And the 10 extra HP means I'll have to get a high performance endorsement because the F15 and 767 I flew aren't high performance.

I see you also have a Department of Stupidity running the show as we have. 

[Hank]

6 hours ago, Bob - S50 said:

C.  Do an overhaul exchange with Lycoming to an IO390.  I don't like the 390 idea because it also involves a different prop which really drives the price up.  And the 10 extra HP means I'll have to get a high performance endorsement because the F15 and 767 I flew aren't high performance.

I did that for my Flight Review in 2014-ish. Had alternator failure on my evening, after work flight. Worked for a low approach at an Army field (descended until over the numbers, then went missed), but radio and panel lights got wonky on climbout. We were cleared to land, with 10° flaps maybe 15 miles out, landed at the unfamiliar Class D with no radio or lights, my first Cessna landing in several years and my first ever 182 landing. 

But it was educational! Aren't you supposed to learn something in your flight review?

• You can go as low as you want at a military field, just don't let the wheels touch [Tower's words, not mine].
• Planes fly just fine with no electricity. Take that, glass panels worth more than my whole plane! Batteries not required . . ..
• 182 are quite nose heavy, especially with only 10° flaps [remember, high wing planes go nose up as flaps come down].
• Those light gun signals really work, and are very easy to see at night!
• It's difficult to taxi around an unfamiliar, controlled field with airline flights with no lights on the plane and not even a flashlight to stick out the window
• My flashlight was in my flightbag, in the back seat of my Mooney, parked on the ramp that I couldn't find. Not a good place for your flight bag while you are out flying . . . .
• Just a couple weeks later, I used my flashlight out the storm window to taxi my Mooney in at my former home base (a whole month after I relocated) when my landing light burned out. [I replaced the GE bulb with an LED]. See, I learned . . . .
• CFIs are embarrassed and eager to disappear when a plane they provided breaks down in flight, especially after they vouch that it has been fixed. But he hung around long enough to sign off both Flight Review and HP Endorsement!    Then he evaporated. I, on the other hand, was good to fly for two more years.

[bbakerco]

22 hours ago, kmyfm20s said:

Tell us about your current engine and why it needs replacement? Where are you located? This way someone can give you a recommendation. 

Current engine is now past TBO at 2150 hrs.  Just came out of annual 2 months ago with compressions at 76/78/78/78 and no sign of engine wear in 50 hour oil changes.  The engine has had a minor oil leak that is presumed to be at the back bottom of the crankcase (from dye test) since I purchased it (didn't show up on pre-buy).  Nothing on the floor, just a small amount that gets blown around the engine compartment and ends up accumulating on nose gear doors and belly over time.  Other A&P's tried addressing it without success.  Can't be addressed without pulling engine and even then, no guarantee it can without resurfacing case halves.  So since the engine is past TBO, also needs new engine mounts and some new hoses.  Seems like the time to get it all done.  

I guess it's possible to pull the engine, try to fix the leak, reinstall with new mounts and hoses, but if that doesn't fix the leak, I'm out $$$ with an engine that is still past TBO.

Also, a Turbo Normalizer was installed in 08 (1200hrs) from M20TurboKits out of FL which doesn't appear to be in business any longer.  But they used a Rotomaster turbo and scavange pump and Rotomaster is here in PHX area so I'm going to check into getting that rebuilt.

That's about all I can think of.  If it weren't for the oil leak, needing new mounts, and hoses, mechanic thinks she'd be good for a few hundred more hours.

[Bob - S50]

2 minutes ago, bbakerco said:

...

The engine has had a minor oil leak that is presumed to be at the back bottom of the crankcase (from dye test) since I purchased it (didn't show up on pre-buy).  Nothing on the floor, just a small amount that gets blown around the engine compartment and ends up accumulating on nose gear doors and belly over time.  Other A&P's tried addressing it without success.  Can't be addressed without pulling engine and even then, no guarantee it can without resurfacing case halves.

...

Our gear doors are filthy but that's from oil coming out the crankcase vent.  Nothing inside the compartment though.  Do you actually have black oil on the firewall and other parts inside the cowl?

[bbakerco]

Just now, Bob - S50 said:

Our gear doors are filthy but that's from oil coming out the crankcase vent.  Nothing inside the compartment though.  Do you actually have black oil on the firewall and other parts inside the cowl?

Yes.  Mostly stays behind the baffle in back of the cylinders.  I know gear doors and belly normally gets filthy from the vent.

[carusoam]

Some people find it a fun challenge to go beyond TBO...  I was so looking forward to it.

Like running a car past 200kmi... And then some.

 

But it isn’t just the engine block...

It includes starters, alternators, exhaust, and sometimes turbo systems... that each can ruin a day...

After a while you may tire from losing a day more than going beyond TBO gives excitement...

 

For some people, starting fresh gets all those little pains out of the way...

Costs and benefits for every small or large step...

 

The only thing that counts... when you ask yourself... was it worth it? 
 

Jewell gets a lot of good press around here... something to look into while comparing...
 

PP thoughts only, I went with the factory reman...
 

Best regards,

-a-

[Mark89114]

17 hours ago, Lance Link said:

May reach this decision soon and I will probably send the engine to Jewell for overhaul.  My MSC wants a factory OH, so we are conflicted.  Just my relatively amateur opinion.

I think i would find a new MSC if tbat is what i was told.

[kmyfm20s]

17 hours ago, Lance Link said:

May reach this decision soon and I will probably send the engine to Jewell for overhaul.  My MSC wants a factory OH, so we are conflicted.  Just my relatively amateur opinion.

If you are in Concord I would check out Tim’s in Long Beach. From what I gather reading posts people aren’t comparing apples to apples with cost. I know people are happy with the quality of Jewell and its sound like they are great people so I’m not trying to disparage them but it sounds like the overhauls are top and bottom end overhauls without the accessories. I might be wrong but if that is the case it is a big difference in cost. Most shops will do just a top and bottom overhaul without doing the accessories but you can’t technically call it a major overhaul. Someone correct me if I’m wrong.

[kmyfm20s]

27 minutes ago, bbakerco said:

Yes.  Mostly stays behind the baffle in back of the cylinders.  I know gear doors and belly normally gets filthy from the vent.

One of the most common and deceptive leak on the IO-360 is from the oil return line under the cylinders. It goes from below the rocker cover to the case and has a short segment of rubber hose held by 2 hose clamps. Try tightening the clamps and clean thoroughly. Oil from those Gets blow straight back since suspended in the air. Worth a shot!

[bbakerco]

12 minutes ago, kmyfm20s said:

One of the most common and deceptive leak on the IO-360 is from the oil return line under the cylinders. It goes from below the rocker cover to the case and has a short segment of rubber hose held by 2 hose clamps. Try tightening the clamps and clean thoroughly. Oil from those Gets blow straight back since suspended in the air. Worth a shot!

Is it accessable without removing a bunch of stuff or pulling the engine??

[GeeBee]

The problem is, this. The manufacturers have raised parts prices so much it is difficult for a rebuilder to replace all the things he wants, and come out ahead after figuring his labor. The last O-320 B2B I had rebuilt was a thing of beauty. Pegged main bearings, flow matched, ported and polished cylinders etc. The reality is, after all was said and done I would have been better off just calling Air Power Inc. and buying a Factory Zero Time engine. Cost would have been the same, and there would have been less down time. A Zero Time will provide the best resale value and it is likely you will sell this airplane before the next engine. You also get the added benefit of a roller cam and lifters. Lycoming is the only folks who can put these into a rebuild. Exchange from Airpower is 37K.

Continental is even worse. They raised the prices on parts and lowered the overhaul price of an IO-550 it is impossible for the field shops to come out. A field is about 43, Factory zero is 46 and brand new is only 55!

I used to be a big advocate of field overhauls by a good builder, but now unless you really want some boutique items like flow match cylinders, etc I would go with a factory exchange. Quickest way back to the air, best resale.

 

[carusoam]

1 hour ago, bbakerco said:

Is it accessable without removing a bunch of stuff or pulling the engine??

Have you ever taken the side panels off the cowl? (Bummer, you don’t have side panels.... )

 

If you have ever changed hoses or belts on an automotive engine...

You magically have the skills to have your mechanic watch you change these.... Tighten these... replace their hardware...

These bits don’t age perfectly well after 40 years... yours might be older...

 

Essentially, these little demons are responsible for many drops of oil that end up blowing around.... 

The good news... cheap to fix the right way... find the Lycoming part numbers...

 

There are about a half dozen other easy to find things to look for... some are not as easy to fix...
 

From dripping quick drains, to case half seals, to engine block cracks...

How much skill do you have...

How much time do you have...

How much drive do you have...

 

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic...

Best regards,

-a-

[Ragsf15e]

2 hours ago, bbakerco said:

Yes.  Mostly stays behind the baffle in back of the cylinders.  I know gear doors and belly normally gets filthy from the vent.

In my opinion, a minimal oil leak that’s been stable for a good long time is not reason to open the can of worms involved in any type of MOH.  I’m as anal as anyone out there, but clean it religiously and get use to it, then enjoy your engine for a couple hundred more hours until it actually needs OH.  Just my 2 cents.

[kmyfm20s]

3 hours ago, bbakerco said:

Is it accessable without removing a bunch of stuff or pulling the engine??

A long screw driver in the right angle you should be able to get it. Part #8 on the diagram.

 

[carusoam]

+1 on learning to take the top part of the cowl off...

You will get to see a lot of detail just by looking...

Many people do it Differently based on individual strength and height and skill...

I typically have a mechanic present for this...  my M20C was much easier... 

Best regards,

-a-

 

 

This is a very special post for me...   #30,000!

Just another day in the MS world!

Go MS!

-Celebrate-

[robert7467]

4 hours ago, bbakerco said:

Current engine is now past TBO at 2150 hrs.  Just came out of annual 2 months ago with compressions at 76/78/78/78 and no sign of engine wear in 50 hour oil changes.  The engine has had a minor oil leak that is presumed to be at the back bottom of the crankcase (from dye test) since I purchased it (didn't show up on pre-buy).  Nothing on the floor, just a small amount that gets blown around the engine compartment and ends up accumulating on nose gear doors and belly over time.  Other A&P's tried addressing it without success.  Can't be addressed without pulling engine and even then, no guarantee it can without resurfacing case halves.  So since the engine is past TBO, also needs new engine mounts and some new hoses.  Seems like the time to get it all done.  

I guess it's possible to pull the engine, try to fix the leak, reinstall with new mounts and hoses, but if that doesn't fix the leak, I'm out $$$ with an engine that is still past TBO.

Also, a Turbo Normalizer was installed in 08 (1200hrs) from M20TurboKits out of FL which doesn't appear to be in business any longer.  But they used a Rotomaster turbo and scavange pump and Rotomaster is here in PHX area so I'm going to check into getting that rebuilt.

That's about all I can think of.  If it weren't for the oil leak, needing new mounts, and hoses, mechanic thinks she'd be good for a few hundred more hours.

On mine years ago I chased an oil leak to the back of the oil pan closest to firewall. The bolts were finger tight. I got a couple of those flexible extensions and torqued them right up. Oil leak resolved!

[Guest]

4 hours ago, bbakerco said:

Current engine is now past TBO at 2150 hrs.  Just came out of annual 2 months ago with compressions at 76/78/78/78 and no sign of engine wear in 50 hour oil changes.  The engine has had a minor oil leak that is presumed to be at the back bottom of the crankcase (from dye test) since I purchased it (didn't show up on pre-buy).  Nothing on the floor, just a small amount that gets blown around the engine compartment and ends up accumulating on nose gear doors and belly over time.  Other A&P's tried addressing it without success.  Can't be addressed without pulling engine and even then, no guarantee it can without resurfacing case halves.  So since the engine is past TBO, also needs new engine mounts and some new hoses.  Seems like the time to get it all done.  

I guess it's possible to pull the engine, try to fix the leak, reinstall with new mounts and hoses, but if that doesn't fix the leak, I'm out $$$ with an engine that is still past TBO.

Also, a Turbo Normalizer was installed in 08 (1200hrs) from M20TurboKits out of FL which doesn't appear to be in business any longer.  But they used a Rotomaster turbo and scavange pump and Rotomaster is here in PHX area so I'm going to check into getting that rebuilt.

That's about all I can think of.  If it weren't for the oil leak, needing new mounts, and hoses, mechanic thinks she'd be good for a few hundred more hours.

No need to pull the engine to find an oil leak.  Go buy a 1 gallon weed sprayer and some varsol.  Remove the cowls from the plane and spray the engine with varsol until it’s completely clean.  It may take several attempts to get it clean and oil free. Wrap your vacuum pump in a plastic bag to keep varsol off of it.

Once it’s clean, run it for about 5 minutes, shut it down and inspect with a strong flashlight.  If you can’t find the leak, run it again for 5 minutes and reinspect. Continue running it in small increments progressively warming the oil and the engine.

Some people will spray the suspected area with Arid antiperspirant to wick the oil as an indicator.

Oil return tube couplings are known to leak, cylinder thru studs, cylinder base O rings and sometimes cracked crankcases.

Clarence