Mooney's answer to the 'chute?

[NJMac]

I’d like to be able to afford a new m600, even if it’s used in a few years.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[carusoam]

Invite Rob to discuss Servo driven mixture and other controls... @takair

Add an auto-broadcast... for the radio system...  the system has to tell people what it is doing.. getting to an airport, and crashing into a student pilot won’t go over very well....

 

For an example of a pilot-less plane recently... a twin went down in NJ yesterday on the way to Linden...

There is a video of the plane rolling out of control...

It fell into an empty house (nobody home).  Flames appear to be fuel driven...

Pilot was highly educated and an experienced pilot. The plane, a twin Cessna...  The video is about 15 seconds in...

https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/Pilot-From-NJ-Crash-was-NYC-Doctor-Who-Reportedly-Had-Emergency-Landing-in-Same-Aircraft-at-Nearby-Airport-in-2008-564077501.html

 

The price and power of the latest iPhone is impressive... when connected to the internet, its power is infinite...

 

Please, please, please, Be extra mindful when discussing tragedies... especially when they involve known Mooney drivers...

Best regards,

-a-

 

[toto]

For anyone interested, here's Garmin's autoland patent application from 2017.

They covered a lot of ground, and considered human factors like "what should we be showing on the screen for the non-pilot passenger when the autoland thingy takes control and starts talking to ATC?"

Garmin-Autoland-Patent-US20170249852A1.pdf

[Hank]

9 hours ago, Bob_Belville said:

@gsxrpilot  Paul, what's the quip about the impossibility to idiot-proof any system from a sufficiently determined  idiot?

"Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool."

I know several of them, at least one worked / works in MIS / IT / Programming / Coding (whatever the current buzzword is for those who develop datasets and instructions for computers). It will be a long time before commercial passenger aircraft are pilotless, and a long time before I willingly ride in a driverless automobile / ground vehicle.

[carusoam]

Anyone keeping score on auto-land/auto throttle failures... forgetting to turn it on seems to be a significant challenge...

Or, 737Max MCAS tragedies... Not knowing how to turn it off properly seems to end in tragedy...

Expect some level of TT to be important to the health of the user...

Best regards,

-a-

[carusoam]

The shine fades when USAToday includes the Vision video...

-a-

 

https://www.usatoday.com/videos/tech/2019/10/30/private-jet-can-land-itself-if-pilot-unable/2503030001/

The private jet can land itself

[GeeBee]

10 hours ago, carusoam said:

Anyone keeping score on auto-land/auto throttle failures... forgetting to turn it on seems to be a significant challenge...

Or, 737Max MCAS tragedies... Not knowing how to turn it off properly seems to end in tragedy...

Expect some level of TT to be important to the health of the user...

Best regards,

-a-

The issue of the MCAS is more complex than not knowing how to turn it off if you understand how a stab trim brake works. That is part of the myriad of problems with the MCAS system, after you turn it off, it leaves you with a "bound trim system" which can now only be released by nose down stick, couple that with low altitude and it never will work. I can could go on ad infinitum but let's say the MCAS is like trying to be "a little bit pregnant". You can't. Either design a full mechanical system or go full fly by wire. Electronic augmentation of a mechanical system always creates problems. With full FBW, the stability is designed in rather than "activated".

As for "turning on" that is a constant battle in all automation systems, even Mooney's. Think how many times an airplane goes through the localizer because the mode was not armed. Aircraft "state" is a matter of training and training to the annunciator.

 

 

[aviatoreb]

I don't think this specific autopilot in the specific class of airplanes it is coming to immediately (the PA46T and the cirrus jet), will budge the safety statistics much.  It is useful and comforting to have such a system and I would want it.  But how often does the scenario happen statistically where one would want to deploy it?  Engine is running all systems are working but something is wrong with the pilot.  Panic, incapacitation, or maybe VFR into IMC is all I can imagine.  I doubt in this category of airplane there are any VFR only pilots although certainly one could imagine a IFR trained PA46T owner with more money than experience who might panic in IMC and perhaps have the good wits enough to press the button.  However, then...as the chute did initially in cirrus, would we see more such airplanes flying with bravado into bad weather with confidence that they have a button?  I don't know.  I would definitely buy a plane equipped with it, if it were in my price range to buy a new cirrus jet.

I bet ya we will see this technology trickle down eventually to retro fits in small GA airplanes like yours and mine.  Say 10 years?  Autopilot plus flaps, plus auto throttle plus landing gear auto control.  Its all plausible.  Its all regulations at this point more than the possibility of technology to do it - the technology exits.  

But more so more useful to budge the safety statistics would be to make the technology also relevant in the higher probability scenario of an engine out.  Have the airplane auto fly the optimal find airport rout right on the envelope even in engine out.  But I am unsure if this could be really made into an auto system that would ever pass regulations since how would you handle an autopilot system that is deployed but there is mathematically no airport landing solution that exists - could you have an autopilot that optimally makes decisions to find and land in a lovely corn field?  How would it know which is a lovely corn field and how would it know to steer around a tree in the middle of the corn field at the last second.  Actually even for hand flying, this is perhaps one of the greatest places the ESP envelope protection might be helpful if you re doing this by hand.  

[gsxrpilot]

In the video it shows how the system will use weather as a determining factor in picking an airport when Autoland is engaged. That got me thinking. If one were on approach in low IFR conditions and had to go missed. Not because the conditions were below minimums, but because the guy in the seat couldn't keep the needles centered. Lets say he goes around and says I'll let the airplane handle the landing, and pushes the auto land button. Would the airplane maybe chose to go to a different airport with better weather? And not take the pilot to his intended destination? 

[mike_elliott]

6 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

In the video it shows how the system will use weather as a determining factor in picking an airport when Autoland is engaged. That got me thinking. If one were on approach in low IFR conditions and had to go missed. Not because the conditions were below minimums, but because the guy in the seat couldn't keep the needles centered. Lets say he goes around and says I'll let the airplane handle the landing, and pushes the auto land button. Would the airplane maybe chose to go to a different airport with better weather? And not take the pilot to his intended destination? 

If it is an emergency to get you on the ground, ATC will have cleared out the airspace. This is strictly for emergency use, not laziness, Paul. 

[tigers2007]

Our friend@Takair already has already automated the foot step, heater control, and mixture systems. I’m curious if he is interested in diving into a CB Autothrottle and Braking system.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[takair]

10 minutes ago, tigers2007 said:

Our friend@Takair already has already automated the foot step, heater control, and mixture systems. I’m curious if he is interested in diving into a CB Autothrottle and Braking system.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

We have a simple Auto-Throttle already running on the bench....  And some parts have flown.  With enough interest we would move to the next step. Would certainly be more expensive than Auto-Lean, which unfortunately has not seen stellar sales. 
 

Have not looked closely at braking. One might argue just getting on the ground at an airport, even gear up, might be acceptable given the circumstances. 

[Gagarin]

Be realistic none of the above will help you when you need to go for #1 and this  will happen more often than needing to use a chute. Nothing worse than holding it up. A pilot relief tube is the best comfortable device you can have in a plane, clean, ready to use ,unlimited use and no urine disposal embarrassment. I would rather have the pilot relief tube than the parachute.

Edited October 31, 2019 by Gagarin

[tigers2007]

PILATO HAS RISEN AGAIN! LONG LIVE PILATO!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[aviatoreb]

9 minutes ago, takair said:

We have a simple Auto-Throttle already running on the bench....  And some parts have flown.  With enough interest we would move to the next step. Would certainly be more expensive than Auto-Lean, which unfortunately has not seen stellar sales. 
 

Have not looked closely at braking. One might argue just getting on the ground at an airport, even gear up, might be acceptable given the circumstances. 

I agree completely that a gear up auto land system would be better in an emergency (say non pilot activated in a pilot incapacitate situation) since after all - the gear is trashed when pulling a parachute.

I doubt the FAA would ever certify something like that though.  I bet they would only certify a complete system that integrates everything, including flaps, gear, autothrotte, to autopilot capable of choosing airport, flying approach, and auto landing, and including auto-radio communications to ATC and auto transponder auto-triggering 7700.  

The FAA actually did something very big in this new certification - they not only certified a new piece of equipment, they certified a new status in the air traffic control system.  The auto land emergency.  I bet this means that every air traffic controller in the country will need to be trained in recognizing and handling such events. So training material will need to be organized for controllers and training protocol.  This is a lot bigger than simply an engineering piece of equipment.  But now that this is done, I bet the way is smoothed for other solutions for the equipment.  But knowing how the govt likes to work - I bet then anyone who wants to offer a new solution for a different certified auto land system will need to comply with all the standards that are newly formed probably to go along with an auto land emergency compliant with whatever the air traffic controllers will be trained to recognize and handle.

Takair I have no doubt you have the skill set to engineer this complete auxillerary system - flaps, auto throttle, gear.  Somehow it would take a guy like you to work with someone like say that guy at XAVION who built a solver to do airport finding and auto land - but not certified.  Then somehow someone with certification knowledge would need to be involved.  I bet this is way more complicated than any standard equipment certification due to compliance to flying in the system.

[MIm20c]

18 minutes ago, takair said:

Have not looked closely at braking. One might argue just getting on the ground at an airport, even gear up, might be acceptable given the circumstances. 

This was my thought all along. If a plane was equipped with a g3x(txi)w/EIS/750/345/gfc500...

-it could put an emergency code on the box

-gather weather and airport information to set up for the proper runway

-tune to the proper tower frequency, dialog on screen to have passengers read

-EIS could instruct passengers to reduce power twice, once for the approach and cutoff for the landing. 

Landing would be a flaps retracted landing gear up survivable crash, nothing more.  Passengers would be responsible for throttle only along with a call for help if wanted.  The procedure could be practiced by a non pilot before hand.
 

Current equipment along with a radar altimeter equivalent control unit could make this possible to thousands of pilots vs a few hundred.

 

[Seth]

14 hours ago, NJMac said:

I’d like to be able to afford a new m600, even if it’s used in a few years.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I'd take a 10 year old Meridian!  Just not there yet.  And frankly, after piloting a few King Air's, the B200 is quite a smooth and functional airplane.  The operating costs for an individual are a bit high.  But you can pick one up for less than a new M600!!  It comes down to how much you'll actually use the airplane per year (and of course if you can figure out a business to run it through) and then if you own it with a partner - well, that changes things as well.  Has to be the right partner.

-Seth 

[tigers2007]

This might be what will be needed for firms like Amazon to get interested in. Maybe it will expedite cargo Caravan’s into zero-pilot status. Maybe AMZ will build their own airports too?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[jetdriven]

The G3000 is a completely integrated system. There are so many variables in retrofitting this that there is no way it’s possible.  Short of a complete retrofit of a g3000. But you need control of the throttle. Mixture.  Fuel selector. Flaps.  Gear. Brakes. In a modern CANBUS aircraft you simply send a request since it’s all electronic anyway.  

that’s just the aircraft variables.  How about weather. Crosswinds. Wires. Open Fields. Obstructions. hence the parachute.  Only a couple variables. Inside envelope or not.  What it eventually lands on.      In this class of aircraft it’s the optimal solution.   For a M600, the emergency auto land.  For a 737.  Two pilots and rigorous standards. 

[whiskytango]

53 minutes ago, tigers2007 said:

This might be what will be needed for firms like Amazon to get interested in. Maybe it will expedite cargo Caravan’s into zero-pilot status. Maybe AMZ will build their own airports too?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Agree.  This makes more sense than thousands of quadcopter drones buzzing all over the place to deliver individual boxes.

[tigers2007]

Amazon Utopia of self unloading cargo pods from the Caravan drones into the quad copter transporters. Maybe do an air launch of the drones.... it’s coming.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk