1976 M20F N7049V Facelift, Augmentation , and Tummy Tuck!

[jerrodmonaghan]

So after asking the experts on MS...thank you all... and kicking around the potential value of my bird last week I have decided to “invest” in my happiness and get my bird into the best shape possible. I will lean heavily on my MS families knowledge during this process.

 

Question # 1- Knowing that I am going to install a new panel, new paint, and new interior... what order should it be done?

 

Question #2- What and where is the best way to purchase avionics? New vs. Used? Direct from the shop installing?

 

Question #3- Don Maxwell seems to be the undisputed King for mechanical aspects... who is the avionics equivalent? (I’m in Texas but will fly anywhere to get the best service)

 

Question #4- How long should I assume the plane would be down for each phase? Panel, paint, Interior?

 

Question #5- I don’t know what I don’t know.... having never flown an airplane with glass how can I begin to make decisions? I am going to steal ideas shamelessly from all your panel photos. But from a picture I don’t know if what you have works and what you may have done differently if given the chance.

 

Question #5- My budget is $80-100k... is this realistic.

 

Question #6- Should I wait for Oshkosh or another event to “shop” for equipment or services or can you get similar “deals” during off show pricing?

 

Thanks for all your help!

 

Jerrod

 

 

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[Marauder]

 

So after asking the experts on MS...thank you all... and kicking around the potential value of my bird last week I have decided to “invest” in my happiness and get my bird into the best shape possible. I will lean heavily on my MS families knowledge during this process.

 

Question # 1- Knowing that I am going to install a new panel, new paint, and new interior... what order should it be done?

Panel, interior and paint. Some may argue paint then interior but if you are replacing glass, interior first.

 

Question #2- What and where is the best way to purchase avionics? New vs. Used? Direct from the shop installing?

Direct from shop with the caveat you can trust the shop. They have some flexibility with dealer cost and will apply rebates. Sometimes, like in my case, they can influence sales to give you a screaming deal. And BTW, if you go with big named stuff like Garmin, Aspen, Avidyne, etc., you will need to buy through and have installed by their dealer.

Question #3- Don Maxwell seems to be the undisputed King for mechanical aspects... who is the avionics equivalent? (I’m in Texas but will fly anywhere to get the best service)

Don't know Texas, Sorry

Question #4- How long should I assume the plane would be down for each phase? Panel, paint, Interior?

My plane was down 6 months for the various panel upgrades. Do it ALL at once and it will be shorter. I have heard paint can be 6 weeks to 3+ months. INterior for me was a week (Jaeger Spatial Designs).

Question #5- I don’t know what I don’t know.... having never flown an airplane with glass how can I begin to make decisions? I am going to steal ideas shamelessly from all your panel photos. But from a picture I don’t know if what you have works and what you may have done differently if given the chance.

My suggestion is go find some planes with the glass you are considering and see what you like. Asking which manufacturer to select is like asking which one of my beauties I like the best. Ain't going to get a straight answer.

Question #5- My budget is $80-100k... is this realistic.

Yes, but within limits. It will depend on what you need. Add in autopilots, multiple radios, ADS-B, it will add up quickly. See the picture below.

Question #6- Should I wait for Oshkosh or another event to “shop” for equipment or services or can you get similar “deals” during off show pricing?

I got killer rebates from Garmin & Aspen through Oshkosh. I would wait for the deals to show up.

Thanks for all your help!

 

Jerrod

 

 

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[Marauder]

And I should add those were installed prices at the time. The 11AMUs spent on the STEC was done in 1998. That same unit today would be over 25AMUs installed. Everything was new with the exception of the WX-500. Aerodon cut me a sweet deal on a recent serial number unit with a brand new antenna and a factory 8130. 

[carusoam]

Buying updated, but used, avionics seems to work well for many MSers... lots of hunting involved... and some risk. find the guy selling used stuff first...

Paint always goes on last... too easy to damage... but not too terrible to fix.... ...

Interior is most important...this is where you spend the hours... there is a known leather guy... and a known plastics guy... and other interior resources...

Stripping and resealing... is the most hazardous to everything else... lots of solvents involved... put this at the front of the list...

Everything takes a month to plan, and a month to do... everything is a collection of month long projects...

Start a list of major projects... and detail each step...  MS Project can really be helpful... if you have Microsoft skills...

There are a couple of threads around here somewhere... where people have detailed such a major project... doc John did a great job renewing his M20F...

Best regards,

-a-

[Yetti]

Where in Texas?

[Tcraft938]

56 minutes ago, Marauder said:

 

 

Very nice.  Thank you very much for providing the costs to give perspective.  I'm assuming labor/install was in addition to these costs?

[gsxrpilot]

43 minutes ago, jerrodmonaghan said:

So after asking the experts on MS...thank you all... and kicking around the potential value of my bird last week I have decided to “invest” in my happiness and get my bird into the best shape possible. I will lean heavily on my MS families knowledge during this process.

I think this is a great plan. But don't be in too much of a hurry to get started. 

Question # 1- Knowing that I am going to install a new panel, new paint, and new interior... what order should it be done?

Everything... then interior, then paint last. I'm doing this with my M20K. The interior and then paint will be only after there is nothing else left to do.

Question #2- What and where is the best way to purchase avionics? New vs. Used? Direct from the shop installing?

I would go talk to a few shops. Ideally you could find one that is amenable to you sourcing some avionics used and buying some through them if they can get good prices. Most who have looked at the panel in my M20K, assume I've spend double what I actually spent. That was from carefully sourcing various bits and pieces from different places where I could get good prices. Most avionics shops would probably like you to buy the parts through them as they get a 10% to 15% or more margin. If I were doing this again, I'd put together a full list of what you want to do in the way of avionics and panel, then visit a few good shops and talk with them about it. I've use Crystal Avionics in Texas and they were good and let me bring in parts. I'd also talk to Outright Avionics in Conroe, TX. I've seen some of the custom panels they've done and they're impressive. Pippen-York in Fredericksburg also has a good reputation.

Question #3- Don Maxwell seems to be the undisputed King for mechanical aspects... who is the avionics equivalent? (I’m in Texas but will fly anywhere to get the best service)

If you can't get into Maxwell's shop, it's worth talking to JD at SWTA as well. He's quickly building a top reputation for Mooney service in Texas.

Question #4- How long should I assume the plane would be down for each phase? Panel, paint, Interior?

Longer than you expect. I've built mine slowly to maximize the availability of the plane. I'd certainly plan to do A&P, Avionics, Interior, Paint in four separate steps. Get a few months of use between each. I intend to go to San Antonio for my interior and Florida for paint. So there has to be flying involved. 

Question #5- I don’t know what I don’t know.... having never flown an airplane with glass how can I begin to make decisions? I am going to steal ideas shamelessly from all your panel photos. But from a picture I don’t know if what you have works and what you may have done differently if given the chance.

I'm more than happy to talk through my panel decisions, what I like, what I'd do differently, and my reasons for everything. BTW my panel is getting a second Aspen, removal of the G5 along with the other steam gauges after Oshkosh this year. 

Question #5- My budget is $80-100k... is this realistic.

If this is a hard and fast budget, I'd start with budgeting for paint and interior and work backward from there. It wouldn't be all that difficult to put the whole lot of it into the panel, but there are economical ways to do it better as well. I would probably estimate $15K for paint and another $15K for interior. The balance should make for a very nice panel.

Question #6- Should I wait for Oshkosh or another event to “shop” for equipment or services or can you get similar “deals” during off show pricing?

I took a full year to work out my first big plunge into avionics. I started by shopping Oshkosh and didn't buy anything. I bought used from Barnstormers and MooneySpace. I bought on BlackFriday sales and trade-in deals from Avionics Source. I bought some stuff used from @Alan Fox and some new stuff from @LANCECASPER. @"Chocks" laid out, cut, painted, and engraved my panel. I've always figured I had more time than money and wanted what I wanted for very specific reasons. Therefore I wasn't about to just walk into an avionics shop with a checkbook and turn them loose or even follow their advice. Talk to @donkaye, @Marauder, @Bob_Belville, @Bryan, myself, and anyone else's panel you admire. 

In conclusion I'll just say, nothing makes the flying as enjoyable as a really nice panel. You'll spend 100% of your flying time looking at it and using it. So make it what you want.

 

 

[jerrodmonaghan]

I live in Houston, Miami, and Palatka, FL. I bounce between the three for work. Hence the plane theory... I say theory because I have yet to realize going to the hangar and using my plane as intended... but it WILL happen!!! My plane is currently at Eagle Lake, TX. Where it just finished it’s annual, tanks sealed, and new gear pucks. The CFI and I have a series of avionics squawks that are kind of forcing my hand. One King radio isn’t working, Brittian Autopilot won’t hold a heading, VOR’s are only being picked up at 10 miles or less, turn coordinator failed, and the gyro sounds like a box of marbles. Other than that it’s doing great! Lol

Anyone with glass relatively close enough for me to come see your panel in action? I’m willing to drive to Antarctica to see it if it will help my cause!


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[MIm20c]

Nothing to add but as you’re looking...try to judge paint jobs that are five years old, the quality of wiring behind the panel, and the support and fit/finish of the interior. True craftsman will provide quality past skin deep. 

[Cruiser]

See what?

You want cheapest go with Garmin G5s or Aspen E5

You want upgradable and the ability to work with most any other mfg. interface go with Aspen's MAX Pro

You wan the most expensive go with Garmin TXi

[Parker_Woodruff]

For avionics, consider Florida options.  There is no sales tax on aircraft repair & service for aircraft 2000+ pounds.

[gsxrpilot]

4 hours ago, jerrodmonaghan said:

Anyone with glass relatively close enough for me to come see your panel in action? I’m willing to drive to Antarctica to see it if it will help my cause!

I have an entry level glass panel at the moment. A single Aspen PFD, EDM900, and a few other goodies. My plane is in Smithville between Austin and Houston. Happy to take you up for a ride to see how it all works.

[Oldguy]

You have already addressed one of the items I was going to mention - fuel tank sealing. The other one would be windscreen and other glass replacement.

13 hours ago, jerrodmonaghan said:

 

Question # 1- Knowing that I am going to install a new panel, new paint, and new interior... what order should it be done?

Panel, interior, paint - if you want to do glass, it needs to be coordinated with the interior and paint. I am on the same path, and did the first part of my panel last year. It took longer than I anticipated for a couple of reasons, one being I wanted the PS Engineering PMA 450B I saw at Sun-n-Fun and had to wait for availability.

Question #2- What and where is the best way to purchase avionics? New vs. Used? Direct from the shop installing?

If you can source the avionics you want from @Avionics Source, @Alan Fox, or some of the other folks on here as used pieces, it will save some AMU. For those you want new, your installer is the one who can get some of the discounts for you. And if you do want to acquire some of your choices as used, make sure your installer does not have any reluctance installing them. I would actually suggest attending Sun-n-Fun in April to get an idea of what is on the near horizon. Some discounts may be available, and if you go to Oshkosh, you can work more on finding discounts than researching products.

Question #3- Don Maxwell seems to be the undisputed King for mechanical aspects... who is the avionics equivalent? (I’m in Texas but will fly anywhere to get the best service)

The best choice is one who will work with you and has good references. @Parker_Woodruff has a good point on sales tax as the amount charged on your panel could be "significant" to say the least.

Question #4- How long should I assume the plane would be down for each phase? Panel, paint, Interior?

10-50% longer than each of their quoted times. Stuff happens.

Question #5- I don’t know what I don’t know.... having never flown an airplane with glass how can I begin to make decisions? I am going to steal ideas shamelessly from all your panel photos. But from a picture I don’t know if what you have works and what you may have done differently if given the chance.

Question #5- My budget is $80-100k... is this realistic.  Could be. Also could be blown quickly. I recommend looking at some of the renovations of the mid-body planes on the site like 

and 

 

 

[jerrodmonaghan]

See how it all works.... Gsxrpilot i would love to take you up on that. Name the time and place and I’m there! All you can eat and drink on me!


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[carusoam]

1,000nm...?

How often do you take that trip?

Get a good look at Paul’s panel, but don’t wait too long....

a Waas GPS, feeding a decent HSI, connected to an AP... are worth their weight in gold for that length of a trip...

After a year, something speedier, to cut down the time aloft is probably going to come to mind...

Hopefuliy the business grows to make that speedier thing work out....   

Best regards,

-a-

[Pete M]

upgrade plan? Sure:) Sell the f, and use the money to buy a more modern airplane with the stuff you think you need in it instead of literally throwing away 60k. 

I get it. I'm all for the forever plane but there's a limit to what any reasonable person should spend on a $60,000 airplane. I'd be thinking about an eagle, but hey, thats just me:)

[ArtVandelay]

upgrade plan? Sure:) Sell the f, and use the money to buy a more modern airplane with the stuff you think you need in it instead of literally throwing away 60k. 
I get it. I'm all for the forever plane but there's a limit to what any reasonable person should spend on a $60,000 airplane. I'd be thinking about an eagle, but hey, thats just me:)

There is 3 Fs for sale on controller: 2@$125000 and 1@$115000.
So I would not call it throwing away $60K.

Of course any sane person who is so concerned about not throwing away money should not buy an airplane in first place.


Tom

[Pete M]

Ok, and how much would one need to spend on an f to make it worth 125k? 200k? 30k overhaul, 15k tanks, 15k paint, 50 to 80k modern radios and or glass? 3 blade prop? Speed mods?  Ect, ect. In the end its still a 50 year old airframe with an ancient engine. Dont get wrong, i love'em but not 160k worth.

[gsxrpilot]

2 hours ago, Pete M said:

upgrade plan? Sure:) Sell the f, and use the money to buy a more modern airplane with the stuff you think you need in it instead of literally throwing away 60k. 

I get it. I'm all for the forever plane but there's a limit to what any reasonable person should spend on a $60,000 airplane. I'd be thinking about an eagle, but hey, thats just me:)

You're in the wrong conversation. There's nothing wrong with aspiring to a bigger/faster/thirstier Mooney. But there are plenty of us who believe the best Mooneys ever made, aren't being made any longer. I personally believe the J and the 252 are the two best models ever made and won't ever be made again. But the F has a unique place in the vintage Mooney line in that it typically has the best useful load. An F brought back to "factory new" condition with modern avionics will only increase in value. And if it's a "forever plane" then why not spend the money to make it into the plane you wish Mooney still produced.

If someone gave me an Eagle, I'd sell it and spend the money on my 252... but that's just me.

[Marauder]

4 hours ago, Pete M said:

upgrade plan? Sure:) Sell the f, and use the money to buy a more modern airplane with the stuff you think you need in it instead of literally throwing away 60k. 

I get it. I'm all for the forever plane but there's a limit to what any reasonable person should spend on a $60,000 airplane. I'd be thinking about an eagle, but hey, thats just me:)

When you get passed the "thinking about an eagle" and beginning "looking at an eagle" let us know what you find. There are a number of "more modern airplanes" that are no where near "modern". Here is the panel of a $170,000 Ovation. Aside of the GTN, everything in that plane is original. You want to get it to a "modern" status, drop that avionics budget on it and see where you end up. 

Edited February 21, 2019 by Marauder

[M20F]

Get hustling if you are looking to do avionics as due to ADS-B everyone is upgrading.  I have a slot in June for work that I scheduled in January.  The good guys aren’t dealing much right now either because they don’t have to.  I suspect 2nd half of 2020 will be better for deal hunting. 

[MIm20c]

All planes are the same. Take half of the money you spend for anything plane related (including the purchase price) and immediately burn it. If you own any of them long enough the above economics will prevail. If you buy a 130k eagle you will soon drop another 100k into it and have a 175k bird...with amazing performance. 

[Marauder]

36 minutes ago, M20F said:

Get hustling if you are looking to do avionics as due to ADS-B everyone is upgrading.  I have a slot in June for work that I scheduled in January.  The good guys aren’t dealing much right now either because they don’t have to.  I suspect 2nd half of 2020 will be better for deal hunting. 

Not to mention getting warranty support!

[m20kmooney]

2 hours ago, Pete M said:

Ok, and how much would one need to spend on an f to make it worth 125k? 200k? 30k overhaul, 15k tanks, 15k paint, 50 to 80k modern radios and or glass? 3 blade prop? Speed mods?  Ect, ect. In the end its still a 50 year old airframe with an ancient engine. Dont get wrong, i love'em but not 160k worth.

Right on! An F will never be worth anywhere near 125K. No matter what you put in it. A pig with lipstick is a pig. Also consider what are you really buying. A 50 year old airframe with old avionics, like 10 or 12 year old aspens for example,  you have exactly that. An old airframe with old avionics that needs work. You'd have to upgrade the upgraded plane you think you bought! I think it's always best to buy the newest affordable airframe. Airframe age is like "location" in real estate. It's the one thing you can't change. 

[MIm20c]

15 minutes ago, m20kmooney said:

Right on! An F will never be worth anywhere near 125K. 

It will be when Garmin certifies the g3x...