GFC500 Update

[81X]

15 hours ago, M016576 said:

What about roll/angle of bank?  Is the ESP strictly airspeed driven, or does it use an angle of attack (digitally derived or otherwise?)

my hope is it’s angle of attack driven - and corrects for roll and pitch, to avoid accelerated stalls in the weather as well.... Out of all the simulators I’ve watched and students I’ve flown with in IMC  that have become disoriented to the point of getting close to stall- I’m struggling to think of a time where the aircraft was wings level.

Im sure the autopilot corrects for angle of bank AND pitch- just curious how it derives it’s stall margin data.

I bet the test flights for that system were a lot of fun!

 It’s pitch angle and airspeed driven, not AOA.  It also has bank angle protection that kicks in at 45 degrees IIRC. 

The LVL button is probably the biggest safety feature there for IMC disorientation. 

I sure have had fun testing out the ESP and normal operation and I watched the flight tracks during the tests.  Anything but straight and level for a bunch of it!  

[81X]

7 hours ago, toto said:

ESP definitely considers bank angle as well. You can't do steep turns in training without disabling ESP, or you'll feel the AP pushing back when you roll in. 

Yeah, and after 10 seconds it pushes to straight and level- I tried it with a descending bank and it was pretty neat!  

[Jerry 5TJ]

3 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

DO you also have a C182?

I would love to hear your comments on costs, hours, and also if that C182 had a previous autopilot and how its removal adds to the cost of install.

Well, I have an interest in one. 

It is a 1973.  It had a Brittain wing leveler a la my C model.  New engine going in with no vacuum system. So all the old vacuum stuff came out. 

Can not help you much with cost estimate as all our labor is gratis & not counted.   One of us is A&P/IA.  Two are Avionics guys.  But it’s a lot of hours, for sure.   

The GFC500 is such a giant step from a vacuum driven wing leveler it’s hard to compare them in a meaningful way.   

[201Mooniac]

As of this morning, the J and K models are now listed as supported.  I hope my order can now be placed.

[Bob - S50]

14 minutes ago, 201Mooniac said:

As of this morning, the J and K models are now listed as supported.  I hope my order can now be placed.

Sweet!

[Diesel 10]

3 hours ago, 201Mooniac said:

As of this morning, the J and K models are now listed as supported.  I hope my order can now be placed.

That's great news!  I am on the schedule with Pacific Coast Avionics for an install starting in October.  Will be interested to hear any Pireps from folks who get installs done earlier in their J.

[201Mooniac]

6 minutes ago, Diesel 10 said:

That's great news!  I am on the schedule with Pacific Coast Avionics for an install starting in October.  Will be interested to hear any Pireps from folks who get installs done earlier in their J.

Well I should be able to let you know as PCA should start my install in the new couple of weeks presuming the parts actually can be ordered now.

[Hillard]

I've just ordered the KI300 and KI310 for USD4773 total.  The M20J/K/L were included in an AML issued last month for the KI310 and I can't understand why Bendix King haven't even made a press release about it.  I'm in the bind of having a late model J with a King avionics and IFD540 that I'm happy with despite the KI258 needing overhaul.  I can't fit a G5 (as it is not approved for the IFD540) and can't source an Aspen Max system as stock is not available here yet. 

I realise that Bendix King have over-promised and under-delivered with their recent products but, at that price, it is worth a try.

 

[aviatoreb]

1 hour ago, Hillard said:

I've just ordered the KI300 and KI310 for USD4773 total.  The M20J/K/L were included in an AML issued last month for the KI310 and I can't understand why Bendix King haven't even made a press release about it.  I'm in the bind of having a late model J with a King avionics and IFD540 that I'm happy with despite the KI258 needing overhaul.  I can't fit a G5 (as it is not approved for the IFD540) and can't source an Aspen Max system as stock is not available here yet. 

I realise that Bendix King have over-promised and under-delivered with their recent products but, at that price, it is worth a try.

 

What do you know about installation regarding replacing your KI256 and KI255, KG258?  Is it drop in?  Or straight forward?  Or more major avionics work/cost?

[Niko182]

Just now, aviatoreb said:

What do you know about installation regarding replacing your KI256 and KI255, KG258?  Is it drop in?  Or straight forward?  Or more major avionics work/cost?

Based on the repair prices alone that king have been quoting, i wouldn touch any of there stuff with a 10ft pole. The tap program pricing was another reminder that they are going to charge ludacris amounts of cash for fairly basic avionic repairs. Everything bendix king is just getting taken out in my aircraft. I wouldnt be ready to spend like 8k installing an AI, if the company doesnt have antything to its name.

[EricJ]

1 hour ago, Hillard said:

I've just ordered the KI300 and KI310 for USD4773 total.  The M20J/K/L were included in an AML issued last month for the KI310 and I can't understand why Bendix King haven't even made a press release about it.  I'm in the bind of having a late model J with a King avionics and IFD540 that I'm happy with despite the KI258 needing overhaul.  I can't fit a G5 (as it is not approved for the IFD540) and can't source an Aspen Max system as stock is not available here yet. 

I realise that Bendix King have over-promised and under-delivered with their recent products but, at that price, it is worth a try.

 

FWIW, there are a number of example proofs of G5s being installed with IFDs, some owned by frequenters of this very forum.   Mine were installed together by a very reputable repair station that was so anal about paperwork that they wouldn't put my NAV1/NAV2 autopilot selector back in because it wasn't on the IFD STC.

So go figure.  *shrugs shoulders*

[aviatoreb]

26 minutes ago, Niko182 said:

Based on the repair prices alone that king have been quoting, i wouldn touch any of there stuff with a 10ft pole. The tap program pricing was another reminder that they are going to charge ludacris amounts of cash for fairly basic avionic repairs. Everything bendix king is just getting taken out in my aircraft. I wouldnt be ready to spend like 8k installing an AI, if the company doesnt have antything to its name.

I agree - the 195K loan shark tap program deal was ... interesting.

Still I was curious.

[aviatoreb]

13 minutes ago, EricJ said:

FWIW, there are a number of example proofs of G5s being installed with IFDs, some owned by frequenters of this very forum.   Mine were installed together by a very reputable repair station that was so anal about paperwork that they wouldn't put my NAV1/NAV2 autopilot selector back in because it wasn't on the IFD STC.

So go figure.  *shrugs shoulders*

But still - I think the G5 stuff cannot drive a king autopilot.

[201Mooniac]

52 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

But still - I think the G5 stuff cannot drive a king autopilot.

True for attitude indicator but it can for the HSI.

[aviatoreb]

5 minutes ago, 201Mooniac said:

True for attitude indicator but it can for the HSI.

If the G5 could be attitude and HSI drivers for king autopilots it would be very attractive.  A G5 HSI and a KI256 is not so exciting, nor is a G5 HSI plus a KI300.

 

[201Mooniac]

Just now, aviatoreb said:

If the G5 could be attitude and HSI drivers for king autopilots it would be very attractive.  A G5 HSI and a KI256 is not so exciting, nor is a G5 HSI plus a KI300.

 

Agreed, I'm not sure why Garmin hasn't gone for it, it would be a killer solution for so many aircraft.

[aviatoreb]

6 minutes ago, 201Mooniac said:

Agreed, I'm not sure why Garmin hasn't gone for it, it would be a killer solution for so many aircraft.

All I can think is the are trying to sell gfc500 instead - but that will cost >20k more all installed so it’s not necessarily the same market.

[201Mooniac]

1 minute ago, aviatoreb said:

All I can think is the are trying to sell gfc500 instead - but that will cost >20k more all installed so it’s not necessarily the same market.

Mine ended up at around $17.5K but that is still a big bill to pay if you are happy with your existing AP.

[carusoam]

Note for @Hillard

 

Make sure the KI300 is ready for use...

In another thread around here the AI is shown listing...

This is a bit hard to believe for a primary AI.

See the pics here...  PearceBK is working at BK.

I can’t ascertain if this is real or not.

PP thoughts only, not an instrument guy.

Best regards,

-a-

 

[aviatoreb]

8 hours ago, 201Mooniac said:

Mine ended up at around $17.5K but that is still a big bill to pay if you are happy with your existing AP.

What did that include?  Did it include the pair of G5’s?

[Davidv]

9 hours ago, 201Mooniac said:

Agreed, I'm not sure why Garmin hasn't gone for it, it would be a killer solution for so many aircraft.

It feels like such a dumb decision strategically for them.  Yes, it will force less people to go buy the GFC right NOW, but the G5 will be the gateway drug to another G5, maybe a TXI, G3X (both of which could use a G5 as a backup), ect... at a relatively inexpensive cost.  These 20-30 yr old autopilots won’t last forever and when the overhaul cost looks too expensive and it’s time to switch, is a pilot with a Garmin cockpit (see gateway drug above) going to choose a non-Garmin autopilot given the price of the GFC500?  I don’t think so.

[ArtVandelay]

Why is it Garmin’s responsibility to certify with a King AP? Why not King certify their own equipment, or at least cooperate with Garmin.


Tom

[Davidv]

14 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

Why is it Garmin’s responsibility to certify with a King AP? Why not King certify their own equipment, or at least cooperate with Garmin.


Tom

I’m no Avionics expert, but considering they already have the GAD43E which provides attitude information from the G500 to the King autopilot, it appears that the functionality already exists.  They just have chosen not to develop something that will emulate the attitude information for their G5/G3X.  But it’s clear that the outputs from the GAD43E work fine with the king autopilots. 

[Bob - S50]

Even if the G5 did work with the King autopilots I probably wouldn't bother.  Other than initial cost savings, why would I want to nurse along a system that costs more to repair one servo than it does to buy two new Garmin servos?  And even then, unless I want to keep sending in the KFC200 computer for minor adjustments, that analog system will never fly as accurately as the GFC500, won't give me altitude select (without buying another box), won't give me GNSS (without buying another box), won't give me VNAV, and uses up about 20 extra pounds of useful load.

The KFC200 was a great autopilot in its day.  That day has passed.

[smccray]

12 hours ago, 201Mooniac said:

Agreed, I'm not sure why Garmin hasn't gone for it, it would be a killer solution for so many aircraft.

My take on it- Garmin doesn't want to facilitate an interface between this lower cost Garmin equipment and third party brands.  I believe their goal is to convert aircraft to a closed Garmin platform, not to facilitate integration of their equipment with some type of open standard.  If Garmin setup a G5 to run a King autopilot, they sell a G5 and whatever software/hardware needed to drive the equipment.  If they don't offer the King interface it pushes the market to the new autopilot.

It's a marketplace decision- Price a KI300 and the interface box, and you still have an old King autopilot.  It's not that Garmin can't drive a King autopilot, it's that they don't want to.  It's not a technical question.  I agree Garmin would sell more G5s if it were an option to interface to a King autopilot, but the decision isn't that simple.