Mooney Stall/Spins

[Cyril Gibb]

In light of the recent tragedies, I had a few thoughts on this topic.

First, I was surprised to see the current sequence of spin recovery to be PARE (power off, ailerons neutral, opposite rudder and elevator neutral).  Way back when LOP was standard practice, I was taught (in addition to the other recovery actions) to break the stall with big time forward elevator, not neutral.  In particular, if you have manually or autotrimmed a significant up elevator leading to the stall, neutral "feeling" elevator will delay the wing AOA recovery.  Thoughts?

I regularly practice stalls, and don't particularly like it because even a minor uncoordination at a full stall break drops a wing one way or the other.  Quite a contrast to a 150/172/pa28 that are incredibly benign during a stall or incipient spin.  However,  in addition to the stall horn giving an early warning, I find that you really really have to heave back on the yoke to get a Mooney to stall unless you've accidentally trimmed into it.  It's hard to imagine not recognising the extreme pull on the yoke.

[takair]

I too am suspicious of the concept of elevator neutral.  I agree with you that the aircraft trim may maintain too much nose up.  This could be especially true on a Mooney, with the entire tail being trimmed nose up.  I would be curious what the perceived disadvantage is of breaking the spin with down elevator?  Would be curious what @Piloto thinks.  He is likely the most spun Mooney pilot on the board, if not the world.  Jose, what is your experience in how to most effectively break a spin in a Mooney?

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, takair said:

I too am suspicious of the concept of elevator neutral.  I agree with you that the aircraft trim may maintain too much nose up.  This could be especially true on a Mooney, with the entire tail being trimmed nose up.  I would be curious what the perceived disadvantage is of breaking the spin with down elevator?  Would be curious what @Piloto thinks.  He is likely the most spun Mooney pilot on the board, if not the world.  Jose, what is your experience in how to most effectively break a spin in a Mooney?

I’m not sure calling Jose “spun” is fair!  He does apparently have vast experience spinning Mooney’s.

Clarence

[MyNameIsNobody]

First I had also heard of the neutral vs. aggressive push on the elevator too.

[Yetti]

I think teaching stalls is part of the problem.   Hearing your instructor saying "just pull back a little more"  while the stall horn is going off teaches bad muscle/brain memory.    We need to learn to push down when we hear the stall warning.   In a high performance airplane it needs to be immediate when the fan quits.   I had to ask my copilot if I pushed down when the engine quit since I did not remember he said I did it immediately.   If you fly by the POH, it says don't ever go under 90 mph without flaps  down.    The mooney is not approved for spins.  Never enter the envelope where a spin is possible. 

[Hank]

8 minutes ago, Yetti said:

I think teaching stalls is part of the problem.   Hearing your instructor saying "just pull back a little more"  while the stall horn is going off teaches bad muscle/brain memory.    We need to learn to push down when we hear the stall warning.   In a high performance airplane it needs to be immediate when the fan quits.   I had to ask my copilot if I pushed down when the engine quit since I did not remember he said I did it immediately.   If you fly by the POH, it says don't ever go under 90 mph without flaps  down.    The mooney is not approved for spins.  Never enter the envelope where a spin is possible. 

When I was having magneto troubles and did troubleshooting involving the ignition switch at 9500 msl without alerting my wife first, we both noticed an immediate, strong down-pitch. She was more alarmed, and later said it was a huge pitch change. All I did was turn the key from "Both" to what I found was an inoperative magneto. Switching back to the good magneto restored level fljght almost immediately.

If the plane is trimmed, it will respond by itself to maintain the speed it is trimmed for. This auto-pitch-change from simple aerodynamics is, of course, not nearly enough to break a stall, much less a spin. See Don Kaye's website for his experiences with Mooneys and spins (they ain't good at any altitude ).

I like to put flaps down NLT pattern entry, generally 100-120 mph, as they make it simple to reach and hold my desired 90 mph on downwind. I'm rarely ever that slow anywhere else, but if needed, Flaps to Takeoff.

Fly safe, ya'll!

[ArtVandelay]

I think teaching stalls is part of the problem.   Hearing your instructor saying "just pull back a little more"  while the stall horn is going off teaches bad muscle/brain memory.    We need to learn to push down when we hear the stall warning.   In a high performance airplane it needs to be immediate when the fan quits.   I had to ask my copilot if I pushed down when the engine quit since I did not remember he said I did it immediately.   If you fly by the POH, it says don't ever go under 90 mph without flaps  down.    The mooney is not approved for spins.  Never enter the envelope where a spin is possible. 

This ^
But also there is the pre stall announcement...
I were king, I’d have a button on the copilot side to activate the stall warning, so the CFI could test the reaction of the student. Anything less than immediate response would be considered unsatisfactory.

[Yetti]

After my spark plug thing, I texted my CFI and thanked him for doing full power fan quits simulation up high.  If you have not done them, then you need to.   If you are taking off full power and the fan quits or slows down, you need to push down immediately and it needs to a muscle memory response.   If you have learned to fly the plane by feel, then you will feel the pre buffet, and will also do it by second nature. GA planes have been falling from the sky all weekend and yesterday around Texas.

 

[mike_elliott]

12 hours ago, M20Doc said:

I’m not sure calling Jose “spun” is fair!  He does apparently have vast experience spinning Mooney’s.

Clarence

I think that is because spinning will help the evacuation of the Pee tube.

[steingar]

Flying in the middle of the sky if takes a big pull on the yoke to stall the airplane.  You'd be surprised how easy that pull becomes when there's terrain in your windshield.

[Piloto]

14 hours ago, takair said:

I too am suspicious of the concept of elevator neutral.  I agree with you that the aircraft trim may maintain too much nose up.  This could be especially true on a Mooney, with the entire tail being trimmed nose up.  I would be curious what the perceived disadvantage is of breaking the spin with down elevator?  Would be curious what @Piloto thinks.  He is likely the most spun Mooney pilot on the board, if not the world.  Jose, what is your experience in how to most effectively break a spin in a Mooney?

Like in any plane just push on the joke and opposite rotation rudder, hold the controls until rotation stops. Mooneys take a little bit longer to stop rotation (about 1,000 ft)  so be patient. Raise the flaps to overcome asymmetrical flaps induced spin.

José 

[RobertGary1]

Been doing pare in aerobatic planes forever without an issue. Only private pilot applicants are required to full break stall. 

I don’t mind doing full breaks with students in the Mooney but I usually do the first myself because many Mooney’s do have significant roll off  

-Robert

[donkaye]

If practicing power off stalls, climb to at least 4,500 to 5,000 feet to begin.  Configure for the normal approach speed power off and with a 3 degree nose down attitude until a 500 foot/minute descent rate is established. Then gradually reduce power to idle and raise the nose to decrease the airspeed by 1 knot second until the stall.  Don't briskly pull back on the yoke to accelerate into the stall, as you'll likely find out that you will need to recover from a spin.  Don't trim up during the stall practice.  At the stall, relax the back pressure to neutral, ailerons neutral, rudder as necessary to level the wings while simultaneously adding power smoothly, flaps to approach, on positive rate of climb, gear up, speed to Vx, then balance of the flaps up.  Pushing briskly forward at the stall break will generally lead to a secondary stall as the yoke is pulled back too rapidly.  Not good.  

Certainly if you have an engine failure on takeoff it is necessary to push the nose down immediately to get to best glide airspeed quickly.

Each Mooney was stall tested at the factory and the stall strips adjusted to stall the plane level, however, over the years many planes have gone out of rigging and fall off on a wing at the stall.  It is pretty easy in the Mooney, unlike some airplanes that break dramatically at the stall, to feel that is about to happen as you get to the burble before the stall.  So, once again, don't accelerate into it.

[jaylw314]

6 hours ago, Yetti said:

After my spark plug thing, I texted my CFI and thanked him for doing full power fan quits simulation up high.  If you have not done them, then you need to.   If you are taking off full power and the fan quits or slows down, you need to push down immediately and it needs to a muscle memory response.   If you have learned to fly the plane by feel, then you will feel the pre buffet, and will also do it by second nature. GA planes have been falling from the sky all weekend and yesterday around Texas.

 

OK, that makes sense now.  your earlier post confused me a little, I was thinking if your engine quits during cruise you'd need to actually pull up or wait to get to best glide speed, but you're talking about the engine quitting during a climb...

[jaylw314]

18 hours ago, Cyril Gibb said:

In light of the recent tragedies, I had a few thoughts on this topic.

First, I was surprised to see the current sequence of spin recovery to be PARE (power off, ailerons neutral, opposite rudder and elevator neutral).  Way back when LOP was standard practice, I was taught (in addition to the other recovery actions) to break the stall with big time forward elevator, not neutral.  In particular, if you have manually or autotrimmed a significant up elevator leading to the stall, neutral "feeling" elevator will delay the wing AOA recovery.  Thoughts?

I regularly practice stalls, and don't particularly like it because even a minor uncoordination at a full stall break drops a wing one way or the other.  Quite a contrast to a 150/172/pa28 that are incredibly benign during a stall or incipient spin.  However,  in addition to the stall horn giving an early warning, I find that you really really have to heave back on the yoke to get a Mooney to stall unless you've accidentally trimmed into it.  It's hard to imagine not recognising the extreme pull on the yoke.

I mentioned before in another thread the AOPA article about Bill Finigan and his demonstration that full rudder and forward elevator can change a normal spin to an inverted spin, so he recommended only neutralizing elevator.  Of course, that begs question as to whether this would be likely to happen in a Mooney, the answer to which, of course, is "nobody knows" since Mooney's aren't approved for spins.

I could never find the video in question (AOPA only has the text of the article, not the associated video anymore).

[Oldguy]

17 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

I mentioned before in another thread the AOPA article about Bill Finigan and his demonstration that full rudder and forward elevator can change a normal spin to an inverted spin, so he recommended only neutralizing elevator.  Of course, that begs question as to whether this would be likely to happen in a Mooney, the answer to which, of course, is "nobody knows" since Mooney's aren't approved for spins.

I could never find the video in question (AOPA only has the text of the article, not the associated video anymore).

I can answer for my J model: No. If accidentally entering a spin doing approach stalls - AT ALTITUDE - as @Piloto said, you lose about 1,000' in a remarkably short time period. Power out, Ailerons neutral, Rudder opposite of rotation, and Elevator briskly down will pull it out of the spin. Does nothing to help pull the seat out, however.

[RobertGary1]

29 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

I mentioned before in another thread the AOPA article about Bill Finigan and his demonstration that full rudder and forward elevator can change a normal spin to an inverted spin, so he recommended only neutralizing elevator.  Of course, that begs question as to whether this would be likely to happen in a Mooney, the answer to which, of course, is "nobody knows" since Mooney's aren't approved for spins.

I could never find the video in question (AOPA only has the text of the article, not the associated video anymore).

That seems like it would take a long period of not paying attention to achieve. Getting an inverted spin is not easy; first you have to stall the plane inverted (negative G's). I've done lots of inverted spins, a Mooney probably would not develop good lift inverted and would likely be far more difficult to stall inverted or spin inverted.

If somehow you did achieve it I can bet you it wouldn't be recoverable without a proper 5 piece harness holding you in. Pushing the rudders while hanging up side down is seriously difficult. Had a harness slip off once doing inverted spins and took everything I had to push my weight against the ceiling to reach the rudders.

-Robert

Edited August 21, 2018 by RobertGary1

[jaylw314]

33 minutes ago, Oldguy said:

I can answer for my J model: No. If accidentally entering a spin doing approach stalls - AT ALTITUDE - as @Piloto said, you lose about 1,000' in a remarkably short time period. Power out, Ailerons neutral, Rudder opposite of rotation, and Elevator briskly down will pull it out of the spin. Does nothing to help pull the seat out, however.

Oh, I wasn't questioning if you could get a Mooney to spin, I was questioning whether full forward elevator would turn it into an inverted spin.

27 minutes ago, RobertGary1 said:

That seems like it would take a long period of not paying attention to achieve. Getting an inverted spin is not easy; first you have to stall the plane inverted (negative G's). I've done lots of inverted spins, a Mooney probably would not develop good lift inverted and would likely be far more difficult to stall inverted or spin inverted.

The dang video that is now gone was breathtaking.  Finigan demonstrated PARE with aggressive full forward elevator, and literally within half a second, the spin converted to an inverted spin.   Granted, this was in a Pitts biplane, so I don't know if that sort of thing could happen in a Mooney (I'm guessing it would be a lot slower), but I don't aim to find out!  His argument was that you can be too aggressive with forward elevator, and figuring out the right amount is something you don't have time for.  Likewise, figuring out which direction the spin is (and which rudder to use) is confusing if you haven't trained in spins before.  Hence his suggestion to just go to idle, center the controls and recover when the spin stops. 

[Oldguy]

22 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

Oh, I wasn't questioning if you could get a Mooney to spin, I was questioning whether full forward elevator would turn it into an inverted spin.

No worries. I was just relating my experience with it not flipping over into an inverted spin. Might just be the way I was taught, but while the power, aileron, and rudder actions happen almost simultaneously, the elevator action only takes place as the spin is stopping. I would imagine any aggressive action on the elevator while still spinning would have an undesirable effect!

[jaylw314]

15 minutes ago, Oldguy said:

No worries. I was just relating my experience with it not flipping over into an inverted spin. Might just be the way I was taught, but while the power, aileron, and rudder actions happen almost simultaneously, the elevator action only takes place as the spin is stopping. I would imagine any aggressive action on the elevator while still spinning would have an undesirable effect!

I thought PARE does suggest elevator action during the spin?

Did some quick research on the Internet, so I must be correct   PARE is actually allegedly trademarked by Rich Stowell, and at his website he actually describes E as "Move elevator toward neutral," not full forward.

Here's another more comprehensive article 

Edit: Dang it, once I said "Elevator Action," I've not been able to get that stupid song out of my head...

[RobertGary1]

If you do find yourself spinning inverted you certainly don’t want to push forward in recovery!

-Robert 

[RobertGary1]

BTW: PARE is a rule of thumb but not intended to be your go-to action to stop a spin. You want to read the instructions in your AFM. Some planes have variations. I recall the Traumahawk had a slightly modification and a few planes even call for full aileron.

 

-Robert

[Mooney in Oz]

21 hours ago, donkaye said:

Pushing briskly forward at the stall break will generally lead to a secondary stall as the yoke is pulled back too rapidly.  Not good.

+1 what Don said. Ask me how I know .

[M016576]

20 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

BTW: PARE is a rule of thumb but not intended to be your go-to action to stop a spin. You want to read the instructions in your AFM. Some planes have variations. I recall the Traumahawk had a slightly modification and a few planes even call for full aileron.

 

-Robert

I’ve flown a couple aircraft where aileron is the primary recovery input in a spin. 

To respond to the question about trim.... neutralizing the elevator assumes neutral trim.  If the airplane is trimmed *full* nose up and you just release the back pressure on the yoke to “light feel” of neutral, it might not be sufficient to break the stall.  Depends on how deep the nose gets and if you can counter the yaw forces successfully.  It will certainly delay recovery.  But full forward yoke while in the spin probably isn’t a good idea either.  Just might have to fight the trim a little to hold the elevator input neutral.  

Just thoughts based on the aircraft design- I’ve never spun a Mooney.

[jaylw314]

2 hours ago, M016576 said:

I’ve flown a couple aircraft where aileron is the primary recovery input in a spin. 

To respond to the question about trim.... neutralizing the elevator assumes neutral trim.  If the airplane is trimmed *full* nose up and you just release the back pressure on the yoke to “light feel” of neutral, it might not be sufficient to break the stall.  Depends on how deep the nose gets and if you can counter the yaw forces successfully.  It will certainly delay recovery.  But full forward yoke while in the spin probably isn’t a good idea either.  Just might have to fight the trim a little to hold the elevator input neutral.  

Just thoughts based on the aircraft design- I’ve never spun a Mooney.

In a stall recovery, even with full nose up trim, releasing back pressure should result in recovery (by design).  I imagine in a stall, simply releasing back pressure should also result in recovery, although forcefully neutralizing the elevator might result in recovery a little faster.  In fact, that's the Mueller/Beggs spin recovery technique ("hands off ailerons and elevators")