Flying into AVL, Asheville NC

[marcusku]

Planning on taking a trip to Asheville NC at the end of the month.  Being based in WI I have no "mountain flying" experience.  The closest I've gotten is flying into Cheyenne, WY (from the east).  Although these mountains are considerably lower than out west I still thought I should ask myself if I'm fit to fly to this airport.  A have about 600 hours TT, instrument rating and 70 hours in my Mooney.  Any thoughts?  Anyone been here before and have some insight if any special experience is required?

Edited August 7, 2018 by marcusku

[Rwsavory]

I have flown in those mountains many times but never landed at AVL.  There is no special experience required.  You may encounter some wave action when the wind is blowing, and  turbulence, especially in the afternoons.  If you look on the Sectional you will see a warning about turbulence in the vicinity of Mt. Mitchell.  This would be mainly on the lee side, which should not be a factor for you going into AVL.  Safe travels.

[Oldguy]

KAVL is not a difficult airport, especially when not winter, but paying attention to the winds even over the Appalachian's is a necessity. I have found more than one mountain wave at various times, but if you familiarize yourself with the instrument approaches and see how they handle the terrain, you should not have a problem.

[Bolter]

Check FBO prices before you go:

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2018/june/12/faa-decides-aopa-asheville-complaint

-dan

[marcusku]

I'd be coming in from the NW so essentially over the range and dropping down into AVL on the east side.  Looks like it would be a fairly quick decent on the back side.  Alternatively I suppose to one could go around to the south and enter from the east.

Thanks for the heads up on fuel prices.

[DXB]

I  landed into KAVL from the east (leeward) side a couple of times previously as a newb pilot.  Mountain turbulence was a significant factor one of those times - certainly got my attention but it never got unsafe.  The layered turbulence prediction tools available on Foreflight or similar are certainly your friends.  

[Hank]

I used to go in & out of AVL from the north, coming down from WV; now I come up from the SW.

There are hills all around, especially to the W and NW. Make sure you climb over them on departure, and don't let Tower vector you too close to Mt. Mitchell to the NE (stay at least 20 nm away, further if the wind is strong).

There is also construction, they are replacing the runway. So you will land on the temporary 7000' runway and have a long, long taxi over to Taxiway A. The FBO is at the north end.

I was there over Father's Day. Seems like it was $13-15/day parking. The self serve fuel pump is all the way at the far North end of the ramp, and isn't as expensive (still $1/gallon more than here). Ramp fee was waived with a fuel purchase, but I don't remember the required gallons (I greatly exceeded it, and paid my bill before taxiing to the fuel pump; but I made sure to tell them that I needed to buy 25-30 gallons of self serve).

Got my rental car through Avis at the passenger terminal. My Mooney doesn't have towing limits painted on the nose gear, so I had to taxi to parking; the lineman who picked me up 1/2 mile away drove me to Baggage Claim to get the car. That saved me ~50% over renting through whoever was in the FBO lobby. Call and check prices, make a reservation before leaving home. 

Have a great trip, and watch DA.

[dlmorris]

It's been a while since I flew in to AVL but my recollection is the departure not necessarily the arrival that got my attention. I had myself and 2 others plus baggage on board. It was a beautiful VFR day. Headed west to Texas from an overnight stop there. My K Model struggled to clear those mountains to the west. Once I was on my way I remember checking in with ATC to request flight following and the controller said they were monitoring my path and taking bets. I didn't ask who won but knew I had. Enjoy your trip. Personally, I didn't think the town was that interesting.

[Browncbr1]

Just make sure winds aloft below 5000 don’t exceed about 20kts (particularly from NE or SW) and you should be ok.  If winds are above 20-25kts at 3000, then I won’t go across the mountains any lower than about 9000.  Going into the wind is even more rough.   Afternoon pop ups are frequent over the mountains, as low winds help push air up.   If early morning and little wind, then it will be a beautiful flight for you!

Lastly, be ready to pull out your wallet for the folks at signature.  

[Bartman]

You don't need a lot of experience to fly there, I did it solo with less than 100 hours but the ride does depend on the weather. You have much more experience than I did my first trip, and you have the IR to boot. We've had some great trips there including Biltmore tours in each season, the Blueridege Parkway from Asheville to Grandfather Mountain in October, and downtown walking craft breweries tours. 

Enjoy !

[Hank]

I flew south to AVL less than 2 weeks after my PPL, in a 172 with no GPS. Its not difficult. Follow the French Broad River south to town, you'll have great views of Biltmore House. Or from AVL, go north along the River, the House will be on the right. There's no terrain to worry about that way.

West is a different ball game, circle around at least once to get altitude. 

[rbridges]

I flew from the south into Asheville for my IFR cross country. I think one thing to keep in mind are the departure minumums if it's IMC.  I remember leaving pigeon forge, and my C model didn't clear the nearest mountain as fast as I'd liked when it was CAVU. 

[nfonville]

You will be totally screwed on fees and gas at AVL. I will never ever fly there again.  If it's not too far, then KRHP (Andrews NC) is a great stop. Tell Joe I said hello and sent you. He will take great care of you. Even get the plane washed for a very fair price.

[bradp]

I remember diverting to AVL on one of my first flights in the mooney due to weather.  Just be aware of the terrain surrounding and you'll be fine.  If flying at night fly an instrument approach.  I could see how that airport could be a setup for a black hole / descent into terrain if approaching from the N/NW.

[marcusku]

1 hour ago, Browncbr1 said:

Just make sure winds aloft below 5000 don’t exceed about 20kts (particularly from NE or SW) and you should be ok.  If winds are above 20-25kts at 3000, then I won’t go across the mountains any lower than about 9000.  Going into the wind is even more rough.   Afternoon pop ups are frequent over the mountains, as low winds help push air up.   If early morning and little wind, then it will be a beautiful flight for you!

Lastly, be ready to pull out your wallet for the folks at signature.  

Wow, appreciate all the responses!  I thought when the winds aloft are perpendicular to the range there are greater chances of mountain waves and turbulence--in which case winds from the NW or SE? 

It looks like if you fly to the ZANIP fix then to AVL you more or less go through a "valley."  Is this a good way come in?

[laytonl]

Zanip is fine.  As others have said, respect Mt Mitchell as it is a turbulence maker.  I believe it is the highest point east of the Rockies.  Richard Collins - former editor of FLYING - frequently complained about turbulence from the mountain.  Otherwise, AVL is an easy airport although it can be expensive.  Lee

[eman1200]

I've been there several times.  definitely monitor weather and winds aloft, like others have said.  have plan B C and D.  weather around there can be tricky, specifically on the west side of the mtns could be solid overcast but on the east side, clear.  I flew into AVL a couple of weeks ago, prices are now $29 plus $5, with the 29 waived if u get 7 gallons of fuel, with fuel being over $5 for self serve. there is a lot of construction going on, lots of taxiway closures, CHECK YOUR NOTAMS!!!!  I highly recommend checking out the sierra Nevada brewery which is a quick uber ride from the airport.

anyways, yeah, signature at AVL can suck it.  but to answer your question, it has potential to be tricky, just do your planning and it should be fine.  strong winds aloft and it's probably a no-go for me, otherwise no biggie.  have fun!

[FloridaMan]

AVL is easy to fly into, but like others have warned, we all hate Signature. The employees at Signature are almost never the issue — it’s like getting upset at the person who answers the phone vs the company that employs them. I know Trump was well-known for having heated arguments with and suing FBOs and I seriously hope that fixing this predatory monopolistic problem is on the DOT/DOJ agenda. 

[gsxrpilot]

Ok I was just there the middle of July. I'd heard all the horrible stories of Signature and read all the reviews. As far as I could tell, Signature got the message as well. 

First the approach in and the departure out were easy. The controllers were super easy to work with and gave us easy routing in and out of the airspace. I'm in a heavily loaded M20K which is not known for it's climb, especially the first 10K feet or so. But we had no problems at all. It was middle of a July day and no issues with wind or anything else.

We were in the middle of a 5400 mile, two week trip in the Mooney and Signature at AVL was one of the more reasonable places we parked. We were there for two nights. They parked us right at the door to unload right into the rental car from National which is onsite. I mentioned the towing situation with Mooneys and the line guy said they knew all about it and even got down and ran his fingers over the spots where damage would occur if turned too hard. So I was pretty sure they were aware of the limitation.  I think the overnight charge was $10/night with one night and all other fees waved if we bought fuel. The self serve pump is $1 cheaper per gallon but still counts. They never told me a minimum but I just said I'd top off. I paid my bill, minus the credit for the fuel purchase and went to load the plane. We taxied over to self serve, filled up, and taxied for take off. No one checked to see how much fuel we took on.

All in all, I think the bad reputation AVL had, is changing. We enjoyed our stay very much. 

Asheville is a very progressive and eclectic town. If you look around and get to know it, and you like that kind of thing, you'll like Asheville. My wife and I would move there in a minute if it had a bigger airport. I travel internationally full time for work and connecting out of AVL would be difficult. But the town its self suits our progressiveness well... Much like Austin but with better weather.

[DualRatedFlyer]

10 hours ago, laytonl said:

Zanip is fine.  As others have said, respect Mt Mitchell as it is a turbulence maker.  I believe it is the highest point east of the Rockies.  Richard Collins - former editor of FLYING - frequently complained about turbulence from the mountain.  Otherwise, AVL is an easy airport although it can be expensive.  Lee

Never been to AVL, however I have recently found (and became addicted to) a series on Avweb called "Say Again" written by Don Brown - an ATC controller and Facility Safety Representative for the National Air Traffic Controllers Association.  In all my years of flight instructing, I never realized how little I knew about how the other half operates.  I attribute this to the FAAs lack of cross pollination between controllers and pilots, further suppressed after 911 (according to Don).  The series is extremely informative and has already changed the way I fly - (I am only 12 articles in).  The series start in the early 2000's and recounts his personal experiences as an ATC controller in the ATL area, and continues on to the mid 2007.  I cant recommend these enough. 

Back to my point - laytonl mentioned Mt. Mitchell which I recall reading about in article #5 .  It may be worth a read.  Below is the relevant excerpt from the article. 

 

Mountain Monsters

Speaking of winds, I wish I had a nickel for every time I've had this conversation in my career.

"Cessna 12345 are you familiar with the Mt. Mitchell area?"

That's usually met by a puzzled response. Anybody who is trying to fly over or on the east side of Mt. Mitchell during the winter and spring winds isn't familiar with the area. The people who know the area know better and avoid it.

"Cessna 12345, the Mt. Mitchell area is 12 o'clock, 30 miles. The area has a long history of severe downdrafts and turbulence. Minimum IFR altitude is 8,700. I'd be glad to vector you around it if you'd like."

Right now, somewhere in the bowels of the FAA, some legal eagle is having a conniption fit.

Years ago, the MEA on V35 (which passes just east of Mt. Mitchell) was 11,000. Some genius noticed that it exceeded the criteria for 2,000 ft. terrain clearance in mountainous terrain. It did, for good reason. The rules prevailed over common sense and the MEA was lowered to 8,700. So now, at least two or three times a year pilots tempt fate at the wrong time and they get the roller coaster ride of their lives. A 1,000 FPM descent despite applying full power gives you two minutes to ponder your fate. Remember that controller that stuck his neck out and offered you a vector around it? All he can do now (as you tell him of your predicament in a voice two octaves above your normal range) is say "Roger."

By the way, if you ever find yourself in that predicament, the terrain falls off sharply just east of Mt. Mitchell. That's not a recommendation. That's not a suggestion. It's not even a hint. My only recommendation/suggestion/hint is that you stay away from it when the wind is blowing. However, I have seen a few pilots survive an encounter with Mt. Mitchell by turning due east . If a controller ever offers you a vector out of the way of something (say an airplane, mountain or thunderstorm) you might want to give serious consideration to taking him up on it. Don't wait until you get scared. By then it may be too late.

[Oldguy]

11 hours ago, eman1200 said:

I highly recommend checking out the sierra Nevada brewery which is a quick uber ride from the airport.

 

10 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

Asheville is a very progressive and eclectic town. If you look around and get to know it, and you like that kind of thing, you'll like Asheville.

Both of these statements are very true. Asheville has some great breweries, excellent restaurants, and neat festivals and fairs. My wife and I view it as somewhat of a "San Francisco of the East" and have considered spending summers there as we have relatives about 30 minutes south.

[flyboy0681]

20 minutes ago, Oldguy said:

 

Both of these statements are very true. Asheville has some great breweries, excellent restaurants, and neat festivals and fairs.

My wife and I took a great walking food tour of downtown Asheville.

[bob865]

11 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

All in all, I think the bad reputation AVL had, is changing. We enjoyed our stay very much

I'm glad to hear this.  I live in Greenville, about an hour southeast by car or 15 minutes by mooney.  My fiance and I love visiting the area, but I usualy refuse to go by mooney because of the reputation.  Mostly becuase if I go, the beer there is too good not to partake, so it means an overnight stay and I didn't want to handle the high fuel and ramp prices when a drive isn't too huge of a difference.

And for difficulty, at least from the southeast, it's not bad.  I flew in there as a 45 hr, recently licensed, pilot with no issues.  But then again, I don't fly across the mountains to get there. 

[eman1200]

4 minutes ago, bob865 said:

I'm glad to hear this.  I live in Greenville, about an hour southeast by car or 15 minutes by mooney.  My fiance and I love visiting the area, but I usualy refuse to go by mooney because of the reputation.  Mostly becuase if I go, the beer there is too good not to partake, so it means an overnight stay and I didn't want to handle the high fuel and ramp prices when a drive isn't too huge of a difference.

And for difficulty, at least from the southeast, it's not bad.  I flew in there as a 45 hr, recently licensed, pilot with no issues.  But then again, I don't fly across the mountains to get there. 

it'll still cost you $34 even just for a short lunch hop, and even more if you get fuel.  but it used to be worse, so......

[jjbiub]

20 hours ago, marcusku said:

Planning on taking a trip to Asheville NC at the end of the month.  Being based in WI I have no "mountain flying" experience.  The closest I've gotten is flying into Cheyenne, WY (from the east).  Although these mountains are considerably lower than out west I still thought I should ask myself if I'm fit to fly to this airport.  A have about 600 hours TT, instrument rating and 70 hours in my Mooney.  Any thoughts?  Anyone been here before and have some insight if any special experience is required?

Where in WI?   I'm out of KSBM and considering a Mooney based upon my research but have never flown in one.