Accelerated commercial courses?

[AlexLev]

Wondering if anyone here has used their Mooney to do an accelerated CPL course. How practical is it to travel somewhere and get the CPL knocked off within 3-5 days as some places claim?

Would love to hear your experiences/recommendations. Northeast/midwest coast. Looked at a few places so far all pretty much in Iowa/Kansas. A ways away, but still considering it to get the CPL checked off the certification list in a quick timeframe.

Edited June 16, 2018 by AlexLev

[Andy95W]

What's the rush?  It sounds like a great opportunity to fly and learn some new maneuvers, as well as learning to fly your Mooney even better.

[toto]

I haven't done an accelerated course myself, but I know pilots who have had very good experiences with GATTS in Manhattan, Kansas. GATTS has a 3-day CPL course. 

[AlexLev]

1 hour ago, Andy95W said:

What's the rush?  It sounds like a great opportunity to fly and learn some new maneuvers, as well as learning to fly your Mooney even better.

It's a fair question. I just hate dragging it out. If I can take a week off work and get it done, that seems preferable to me than a lesson every week or so for six months, relearning, forgetting, relearning, forgetting, etc.

When you fly for the airlines, you pretty much work on an "accelerated" schedule to get a type-rating and it can be a more efficient form of training.

[carusoam]

IIRC...  

Could be a Pi in the sky idea...

Erik did his commercial...

Probably in upstate NY..?

See if @aviatoreb has some ideas of the shareable kind...?

Best regards,

-a-

[jlunseth]

Are you going to do it in your Mooney or their aircraft?  I would suggest if you are going to do an accelerated course, that you do it in a "draggy" school plane like Warrior, Arrow, or Skyhawk.  I believe you are not required to use an RG now (we were when I did mine), but the point stands even if you are - use one of the "draggy" RGs.  Maybe your G is different than my K, but I found that the airframe is so slick that it takes a little getting used to in order to pull of some of the maneuvers and stay within the specified speed envelope.  In the Lazy 8s, for example, if you start at, say, 110, do the slow turning climb and then just put the nose over expecting a matching profile on descent, the airframe picks up too much speed and after a couple of 8s you bust your speed limit.  Instead, you have to let the Mooney airframe "fall" for awhile at the top,  a little hard to describe but it works well.  More of a nose up, descent attitude.  You can hear the change in the wind noise around the aircraft.  I am guessing it is easier to hit speeds in the school type aircraft, and the instructor will know that aircraft well, so knows what to teach you.  If you are going to use your Mooney, find an instructor who knows how Mooneys behave.

[RLCarter]

Double check but most of the accelerated courses have prerequisites, your best bet would be get all that knocked out and just grab a local CFI, take the week off and get it done. If your looking to go to the airlines I doubt they care how you got it

[ilovecornfields]

Here's the very helpful feedback I got when I asked the same question:

 

[aviatoreb]

4 hours ago, carusoam said:

IIRC...  

Could be a Pi in the sky idea...

Erik did his commercial...

Probably in upstate NY..?

See if @aviatoreb has some ideas of the shareable kind...?

Best regards,

-a-

I did my commercial a few years ago in my rocket over 4 or 5 months.

[Bryan]

Correct, now, you can do your CPL in a non-complex aircraft. I own a Mooney 252 Encore but am doing my maneuvers in a friend’s Cessna 172H (O-300). I don’t like the quick power changes in my turbo aircraft.

I have passed my written, met the hour requirements, and learned most of the maneuvers but just not polished everything enough to take my checkride yet.

I thought about finishing up at GATTS or similar but think I should just finish with my CFI. The problem is, he is a new FO at a regional and is gone for like 7 days and then back for 2. 

[gsxrpilot]

I'm also interested in this. I've got to pass the written first. But as I'm not going to the airlines, I intend to do this in my 252 as a means of becoming a better pilot in my own airplane. 

The challenge is to find a CFI who can fly the maneuvers in a Mooney. I tried a local CFI but very quickly realized I wasn't interested in paying his rate, and the fuel, etc. for him to learn the maneuvers in my turbo Mooney.

[AlexLev]

2 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

I'm also interested in this. I've got to pass the written first. But as I'm not going to the airlines, I intend to do this in my 252 as a means of becoming a better pilot in my own airplane. 

The challenge is to find a CFI who can fly the maneuvers in a Mooney. I tried a local CFI but very quickly realized I wasn't interested in paying his rate, and the fuel, etc. for him to learn the maneuvers in my turbo Mooney.

You can try Pray Aviation http://www.prayaviation.com - the complex plane they have is a M20C, so I am sure the instructors are probably pretty decent Mooney pilots.

[Yetti]

18 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

I'm also interested in this. I've got to pass the written first. But as I'm not going to the airlines, I intend to do this in my 252 as a means of becoming a better pilot in my own airplane. 

The challenge is to find a CFI who can fly the maneuvers in a Mooney. I tried a local CFI but very quickly realized I wasn't interested in paying his rate, and the fuel, etc. for him to learn the maneuvers in my turbo Mooney.

I've considered this also.   Was thinking about maybe using one of the two CFIs at Rockdale.    Short flight  to both of us.  https://www.aopa.org/CAPComm/flyingclubs/flyingclubfinder/PAFA/clubdetail/31338

[laytonl]

The commercial is easy and shouldn’t take long to get the maneuvers down.  I recommend just going out a flying with a local CF for awhile.  Basically, you just need to go out and practice the maneuvers for a few hours.  Lee

[jlunseth]

On 6/17/2018 at 2:54 AM, gsxrpilot said:

I'm also interested in this. I've got to pass the written first. But as I'm not going to the airlines, I intend to do this in my 252 as a means of becoming a better pilot in my own airplane. 

The challenge is to find a CFI who can fly the maneuvers in a Mooney. I tried a local CFI but very quickly realized I wasn't interested in paying his rate, and the fuel, etc. for him to learn the maneuvers in my turbo Mooney.

It worked out ok for me.  The 231 takes more careful throttle manipulation than your 252, and you might think about using the 65% power rule for maneuvers like power on stall.  You can do it at 100% power, but you gotta get it right so you don’t wind up standing on your tail.  I would look at the instructors listed in the Flyer.  Jerry Johnson is very good, last I looked he is listed in the Flyer, but I referred someone on this board to him once and they reported he was not taking private students.  I would check though.  I would strongly urge using a Mooney competent instructor, and better yet, someone who knows your model.  CPL is a good learning experience, and particularly so if you have a Mooney instructor, there is lots to learn about how the aircraft performs.

[Jerry 5TJ]

I did my commercial training in a beater RG172 even tho I owned my E model at the time.  Like others here, I was concerned about rapidly changing power settings.

I flew that RG172 about 12 hours dual and solo before taking the check ride.  

During the oral the FAA examiner focused on grilling me about the Mooney I owned.  I knew it much better than I knew the RG172’s systems.  

In the flight portion of the test I did ok, but no better than passing the minimum standards in the (then) PTS.  

In telling me I passed the examiner said I was only adequate on the maneuvers but  “you deserve the commercial based on your knowledge of your airplane.”  

21 years later I don’t remember many specifics from the training for commercial (tho I still do chandelles occasionally) but I vividly remember several incisive & constructive suggestions the FAA Examiner made.   For me, the 4 hours with him was the peak commercial learning experience.  

If I had to do it over I would:

1.  Use my (normally aspirated) Mooney for training and checkride.  

2.  Find a CFI who is an experienced aviation teacher regardless of his/her Mooney time,  an instructor who would hold me to high professional standards.  

3.  Spread the flight training over 2 or 3 weeks for my optimal learning.  

The OP asked about accelerated training.  IMO:  If you show up with your written passed & in your own plane that you know well then a 2-3 day course covering only the required maneuvers may be fine.   

You really want to achieve accelerated learning, not accelerated training.  

[N201MKTurbo]

I did mine in my Mooney. It is the plane I’m most familiar with.

I couldn't find an examiner in Arizona and I was traveling to Portland, so I called up there to the big flight school in Hillsboro and asked if they had an examiner available. Did it after work. Ended up doing my power off spot landing in the dark. I should get extra credit for that.

[CaptRJM]

I did it in my 231 about 8-9 years ago.  It took me a couple of months including studying for the written.  If I remember correctly, all of the maneuvers were at pretty low power settings so there shouldn't be any real strain on the motor other than takeoffs.  I had a pretty hard time with chandelles and lazy 8s because of the slick airframe.

My question is why would you not want to know how to be a better pilot in YOUR airplane?

 

[Bob_Belville]

2 hours ago, CaptRJM said:

I did it in my 231 about 8-9 years ago.  It took me a couple of months including studying for the written.  If I remember correctly, all of the maneuvers were at pretty low power settings so there shouldn't be any real strain on the motor other than takeoffs.  I had a pretty hard time with chandelles and lazy 8s because of the slick airframe.

My question is why would you not want to know how to be a better pilot in YOUR airplane?

 

I wonder if (partial?) speed brakes would help mitigate the "slick airframe" during maneuvers. (I've never done the commercial flight maneuvers.) 

[gsxrpilot]

1 hour ago, Bob_Belville said:

I wonder if (partial?) speed brakes would help mitigate the "slick airframe" during maneuvers. (I've never done the commercial flight maneuvers.) 

Hmmm... good idea. But my speed brakes are all or nothing. There isn't an option for partial. :-)

[Bob_Belville]

7 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

Hmmm... good idea. But my speed brakes are all or nothing. There isn't an option for partial. :-)

Mine are controlled by a pseudo Johnson Bar beside the gear Johnson Bar! They stay where I put them. Gotta love vintage...

[jlunseth]

You have to make a setting and stick with it.  The examiner might or might not let you use the brakes, but once they are out they would have to stay out, so if because of the brakes you are losing speed, you would bust speed also.  Better to just figure out how to fly the plane, that is the point of it.

[L. Trotter]

Just finished my CPL last month. I used my own plane. Personally, for me I completed the CPL to be a better pilot, in my own plane-an Acclaim. I was also initially concerned about abrupt power settings, slick airframe etc. This is what I learned.....

-Our Mooney's offer little forgiveness in the commercial maneuvers. You can get way out of specs really fast. Lazy 8's and precision power off landings in particular were the most difficult for me. However, with practice they are very doable and you can master them-you just need stick time and a few pointers. Know your aircraft and hone your skills and you will be just fine. This is the point/purpose of obtaining a CPL.

-Most of the maneuvers require a steady platform with very small corrections. The Mooney is great for these (360 power on turns, eights on pylons, steep spirals).

-The CPL maneuvers are best performed 90% visually-looking outside the plane. Pick a spot on the cowling and it's reference to the horizon-learn what things look like. Occasionally peek at your instruments to verify trends. As an avid IFR guy, I had a tendency to focus to much on the panel. I doesn't work.

-Power changes are not an issue in your own plane. As PIC you choose when the maneuver is completed. I was very clear with the instructor and examiner that we will need to cool down a bit before the maneuver, if I was required to pull power abruptly. All the maneuvers are done at Va which is usually a fairly low power setting anyway (16 inches in the Acclaim). After climbing (high power setting) to complete the steep spiral, I just slowly backed off the power and let the temps drop before pulling power. No one had issues with being "kind" to my engine. In fact, they were impressed that I was thinking about the totality of the flight and took initiative.

-Speed brakes offer little help. In fact, I found them of no use. Just figure out the power setting for Va, let your bird slow down then do your thing. My examiner did not care if I used them as part of my "protocol" to complete a particular requirement. You just have to be able to explain exactly what you are doing and why. 

-What I found to be very helpful was to have intermediate points in each maneuver that required precision altitude/speed. I would then adjust pitch/bank/ rudder/throttle to keep myself within a reasonable spec. By the completion of the maneuver I was always spot on.

-During the exam be aware of what is going on both inside and outside the plane. My examiner started hyperventilating on the first part of the "planned" cross country trip. He used this (ya, fabricated issue) to terminate the trip and set up for an emergency landing at an unplanned location. He was looking to see that I could handle a passenger issue and fly the plane safely. I dished it back by having him sing a favorite song with his face in a sick sac. It kept him distracted so I could pull up the nearest airport info.

-As far as flight training....I spent about 6 hrs with an instructor. 3/4 the time was spent up front learning basic flying techniques, the rest was spent after I had practiced about another 5 hrs. I felt very confident knowing the numbers (and looks) for multiple points in each maneuver and could reproduce them consistently.

-I'm not sure a "Mooney" specific instructor is necessary. Some one who really understands the procedures and how they are to be completed correctly is all you need. The flight principles are the same and work for all makes of aircraft. The numbers and visual may be different but that's what personal practice will iron out.  A Mooney does not need to be flown differently from other aircraft. Things just may happen a little faster is all. You will learn to stay ahead of your plane. A very good habit to learn.

-Ground school. I personally completed the King course and passed the written exam on my own time prior to the flight stuff. The King program (there are other good ones as well) can be done at your leisure, in leu of time spent watching TV. 

I will most likely never fly for hire. However, I am glad I completed my CPL. Even after >5,000 hrs of experience, I was able to further polish my skills and become more knowledgeable about flight, work flow and weather. Pushing yourself to continually improve keeps you safe. An unintended perc.- although it may or may not be true........passengers, friends and family feel added comfort knowing you are commercially rated. The relatively small $$ investment is well worth it. 

[Txbyker]

Question:  Assume you have total electrical failure and thus, no gear, no flaps.  You can crank the gear down manually.  Flaps not, assume no flap landing.  Where in the POH does it provide landing distance for no flap landings?  

Actual DPE question.

Russ

[gsxrpilot]

2 hours ago, Txbyker said:

Question:  Assume you have total electrical failure and thus, no gear, no flaps.  You can crank the gear down manually.  Flaps not, assume no flap landing.  Where in the POH does it provide landing distance for no flap landings?  

Hmmm... good question. But I know how much runway my K will take landing no flaps... because I do it all the time