The evils of the Touch and Go

[Mooneymite]

The whole subject of touch n goes on Mooneyspace is, for me, a real head-scratcher.  The subject seems to have become charged with more of the "who"is right than "what" is right.

The military does touch n goes in more complex aircraft.

The airlines did touch and goes prior to the age of the simulator.

I believe we all did (and survived) TnG's during primary training.

The Mooney is a relatively docile airplane and poses no specific issues.

I've said it before:  the touch n go is a basic maneuver.  You learn it, then use it in your bag of tools.  There are no FAR or POH restrictions.

No one forces you to do them, or to stay proficient at doing them.

Personally, I think those who are adverse to them have a deficiency in their training/currency/proficiency,  they get paid by the hour and prefer to see the Hobbs meter run, or they scared themselves and didn't get instruction to bring back proficiency and confidence.

YMMV.

Like I said...it's head-scratcher.

[kerry]

Touch and Go's are fun.  Do as many as you want.

[Andy95W]

 

[Hank]

12 minutes ago, Andy95W said:

 

The "No" voters are vociferous and loud; the "Ayes" are much calmer. This can create the wrong impression . . . .

I'm in the "Let's do them!" camp.

Edited September 15, 2017 by Hank

[gsxrpilot]

I don't practice them, but have done them just to know what it's like and what it will be like if I'm ever in a situation where I must Go after a brief Touch. Therefore to be sure, I did them with full flaps and up trim. While the airplane quickly becomes a handful with full power, the flaps out and up trim, it wasn't so difficult as to be dangerous. I just went full power, lift off, then trim, then take out some flaps, then more trim, then gear, more trim, flaps, trim, fly away. I've done it both in the C with the manual gear, hydraulic flaps and in the K with electric flaps, trim and gear.

It was pretty much a non-event in both. Just fly the airplane.

[salty]

I land, slow down a bit, spin the trim 3 times, flip up the flap switch, push in the carb heat and throttle and take off.

I don't do them very often, and pretty much never when I'm flying a lot. If I've sat out a month or two, I like to brush up on the landings, and I can get 5 or 6 t-n-g's in about the time I could do 2 maybe 3 full landings and taxi backs.

Edited September 15, 2017 by salty

[thinwing]

2 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

I remember a day back in the late 80s I was sitting in the café next to Flower Aviation in Pueblo CO. and watched a United (I think) 737 do 5 touch and gos.

 

Speaking of Flower Aviation....

In the early 80' when you landed at Flower, a large breasted woman in a skimpy outfit and high heals would bring out a red carpet and give you a sloppy kiss on the lips.

 

Oh how aviation has changed....

You forgot the steaks!

[johncuyle]

Touch and go landings are challenging in my K model because of the way the flaps work, how slow the trim is, the force required to keep the nose from climbing too high, and how difficult it is to get the throttle set high enough to climb without overboosting the engine. That said, the workload is similar to a last minute to around and you need to be able to do a last minute go around (deer on the runway!) or bounced landing recovery. If my goal is working on approach to landing and short field, I do not do touch and go landings. They are probably safer than practicing last second go arounds and you really should do those once in a while to stay sharp. A couple touch and go landings is maybe not a bad way to warm up for doing two or three bounced landing recovery practices.


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[jkhirsch]

3 hours ago, teejayevans said:

 

Those sounds like "low approach" situations to me that would not require touching down. If there's a question of runway conditions it didn't happen between the fence and the TDZ and I would be planning for a low approach to verify conditions.

Edited September 15, 2017 by jkhirsch

[midlifeflyer]

21 minutes ago, jkhirsch said:

Those sounds like "low approach" situations to me that would not require touching down. If there's a question of runway conditions it didn't happen between the fence and the TDZ and I would be planning for a low approach to verify conditions.

Many of the situations described as supposedly similar to a leisurely touchdown followed by a leisurely takeoff are either low approaches or go-arounds, some of which are not optional. A touch & go is always optional.

[Tommy]

9 hours ago, jkhirsch said:

I'm not currently aware of a situation that would cause me to execute a touch and go. It's seems completely frivolous.

But our Mooneys are so hard to fly. So many things can go wrong.

You lots are all pussies. 

 

 

[salty]

I hate those wavey runways. Learn how to grade a surface before paving it for crying out loud. 

[Guest]

Don't Navy pilots do them on a carrier deck as part of their training?  I'm sure I've seen video of it being done.

Clarence

[Tommy]

Of course there arent many real life scenarios where you will land, roll the plane, and then take off again but it's the closest we have got to a go-around for wind gust, bounced landing, or runway issues (animal, water, etc).

Now some of you will say "well, I can practice missed approach which is the same as a touch and go." My argument is that they are completely different beast. You miss with plenty of height below you and the plane isn't bouncing around and slowing down after contacting the tarmac. Also, most of the time, you miss because of lack of visual while you do touch and go for wind gust, bounced landing, or runway issues. So not only the handling is different, the situations that calls for them are different too. Yes they do have a lot in common like the sudden aerodynamic changes but have enough of differences to warrant practicing both.

That's why you practice engine out at altitude as well as engine out on take off. 

 

[KLRDMD]

9 hours ago, Mooneymite said:

Personally, I think those who are adverse to them have a deficiency in their training/currency/proficiency,  they get paid by the hour and prefer to see the Hobbs meter run, or they scared themselves and didn't get instruction to bring back proficiency and confidence.

Clearly these guys have a deficiency in their training/currency/proficiency:

"I taught for more than 8,000 hours before I decided this maneuver has no place in primary training or almost any other flight training environment," said Kirby Ortega. "Seldom does any takeoff begin at 55 kt or any landing completed at the same speed. The arguments such as saving time or ATC convenience just don't justify the additional risk exposure. How can anyone argue the additional minute it takes to do a stop and go is too much of an added expense?" 

A touch and go does not properly replicate either a landing or a go-around, noted Chuck McGill, who instructs primarily in Mooneys. "I never perform touch and goes in a Mooney as a method to teach someone to land a Mooney. I don't believe a Mooney is landed until it is clear of the runway and stopped. The only way to learn how to land a Mooney is to practice full-stop landings. Land and stop.

https://www.aopa.org/asf/publications/inst_reports2.cfm?article=4589

 

Personally, CFI, CFII, MEI, ATP and I won't do touch and goes or teach them in Mooneys. I must have a deficiency in my training/currency/proficiency too.

[Bartman]

A long time ago, at an airport far far away...  while doing some touch and go's during a checkout on a club of my instructors asked me to land the 172 with full flaps as usual . Then just as I was about to dump the flaps he said "your electric flap motor just died and there is a deer on the runway."  Then he would not let me adjust trim so I cad to climb, very slowly I might add, with full flaps and nose up trim. I will never forget that lesson because it taught me how just how much forward pressure was required to fly the plane in that odd configuration. He made me fly runway heading to 500 ft before I could reconfigure, and it was an eye opener  

Fast forward 2 years and I used the same instructor for my transition training to my new to me 1977 J model Mooney. When I did my first touch and go's it reminded me of the lesson in the 172. Although he did not restrict my use of flaps and trim, it felt just like the 172 lesson. You better know how to do an aborted landing after touchdown and what to expect. It's strange when you are climbing and depending on configuration of the flaps and amount of nose up trim you may find yourself pushing forward on the yoke and trimming nose down to relieve the pressure. Best to do that in ground effect because if you are in full flap and start releasing then you can sink a bit due to loss of lift.

By the way, the instructor owns an E and has flown it for years. He taught me a lot. 

[Tommy]

2 hours ago, KLRDMD said:

 How can anyone argue the additional minute it takes to do a stop and go is too much of an added expense?" 

This is the problem with the "Against" side. They always think that people who practice T&G are for saving money. That might be true if you are just practicing landing but my question to them is that are there any other safer and more realistic ways to practice a go-around in the event of bounced landing / wind gust / runway emergency than T&Gs? 

Given that our plane is much more prone to bounced landing and the prop strike that follows than other comparable GA aircrafts, if anything, we should be practicing T&Gs more than anyone else out there. Take a CFI with you if you don't feel confident to do it by yourself. 

[Hank]

All takeoffs are voluntary. Once you decide to takeoff, you expose yourself to the following risks:

• Runway loss of control on takeoff
• Engine out, low altitude
• Getting lost
• Airspace violations
• VFR into IMC
• Airborne loss of control
• CFIT 
• Midair Collision 
• Engine failure during cruise
• Loss of Control
• Gear failure
• Hard landing
• Landing short 
• Landing long, overshooting the runway
• Porpoise and prop strike
• Runway loss of control after landing
• High speed tire blowout
• Gear collapse
• Taxiing into obstacles
• and many more . . . 

And yet, airplanes of all sizes takeoff every day! Some planes takeoff more than once in a given day! (I logged two takeoffs and 2 Day Landings today, went to get fuel since there is none where I am based).

Flight risk can be lowered from very small to zero by simply not flying--no endless arguments needed. Can we close this thread now?

Edited September 16, 2017 by Hank

[Immelman]

There is nothing inherently wrong with a touch and go in a mooney. I've done them for 10 years of Mooney ownership. My prop has no dings, my wheels are still round. My belly has no scrapes, and the wheels still go up and down.

It does take some thought ahead of time. using half flaps is a good idea. what about when you'll operate the cowl flaps?

For someone who isn't comfortable - that's okay I respect that. I would ask the question for those who think its a bad idea: What happened if the proverbial deer ran out onto the runway, or airplane got onto the runway down field after your mains had touched down. Could you go around? Could you go around comfortably? This is something I require when conducting a BFR. Anyone ought to be able to successfully go around from that point in a landing. A touch and go isn't much of an extension...

ps:

 

Edited September 16, 2017 by Immelman

[Andy95W]

2 hours ago, KLRDMD said:

 How can anyone argue the additional minute it takes to do a stop and go is too much of an added expense?" 

I agree with what Tommy said above, it's not about the money, it's about knowing one's airplane and having the ability to control it in every regime of flight.

[ragedracer1977]

My transition instructor had me do lots of touch and goes in my C.  Full flaps, no flaps, half flaps.  I didn't even know how much danger he was putting me in.  

That said, I sure was glad for that experience when I bounced the hell out of the plane on an IR training flight.  It was just easy to push in the power and hold the yoke forward.  Had I never done a T&G, I don't know that i would have been nearly as confident and quick to go around in a bad situation.  I don't believe you can simulate the forces required any other way.  Do you really want the first time you've ever gone full power off the runway fully configured for landing to be when you're already in a bad spot?

[Andy95W]

3 minutes ago, ragedracer1977 said:

Had I never done a T&G, I don't know that i would have been nearly as confident and quick to go around in a bad situation.  I don't believe you can simulate the forces required any other way.  Do you really want the first time you've ever gone full power off the runway fully configured for landing to be when you're already in a bad spot?

/\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\

What he said.

And again: it is not about saving time or money.  It's about having the ability and the confidence to control your airplane, and not the other way around.

[carusoam]

Q1:  What is the main risk of a touch and go landing that we are trying to avoid..?

A1: A gear up landing...

 

Q2: How does a TnG, lead to a GU landing?

A2: A simple cognitive distraction causes the brain to not be going through the normal process of making sure the Gear is down.

 

Once you understand how distractions work, (you are PIC)... How do you avoid the GU landing?

• I don't typically use the TnG technique.  But, a simple bounced landing immediately becomes a TnG, for me.
• Gumps, three times.
• Last chance, Green gear light on final before landing.

PP thoughts only, not a... CFI, mechanic, or a person to decide how you should operate your aircraft...  

Great question Bob, if you can't find the answer... You pretty much have to ask...

Best regards,

-a-

 

 

[RobertGary1]

As a cfi i don't do them with students. The work load is very high (unnecessarily). Here is what happens last year when my friend did a touch and go in my V tail. 

Totalled a great airplane. I guess more time for my Mooney  

-Robert 

 

 

[Guest]

Stange that Don Kaye is silent on this subject.  I remember reading on this forum that he will bounce the aircraft off the runway and have the student recover the aircraft.  Isn't this a touch and go without much time on the runway?

Clarence