First Time Buyer Living Out West Looking For Advice!

[SkyDweller]

I'm getting back into flying again after a long hiatus. I am a low-time pilot with only around 125 hours in my log book. Most of my time as PIC is in a C172. I have never flown a glass cockpit. I have made the decision to buy an airplane and would love some feedback and advice. I know many people have asked similar questions in these forums, so please excuse any redundancy or asinine questions.  I don't think there was a time when I didn't dream (actually "lust after") of owning a Mooney...but I try to never let my emotions get in the way of making a logical choice in these types of matters.

About me:  Late 50's, good looking (oops...wrong site!). Married. No children. 5'11", 170 lbs. Relatively tech savvy. Always interested in learning.
Location:  Las Vegas, Nevada (KGVT, North Las Vegas). Elevation: 2,205' MSL
Avg. Summer Temps:  May - 88^o F, June - 100^o F, July - 106^o F, Aug - 103^o F, Sept. 95^o F
Mission:

• Recreational flying only.
• 40% alone.  50% with partner.  10% with partner and one or two trim friends.10%.
• Cargo: We always travel light
• Typical Range: 150 - 300 NM
• Most common destinations: Van Nuys (KVNY) or Santa Monica (KSMO)
• Regions: California, Nevada, Arizona, Utah. Occasionally to Colorado & Oregon

Budget:  $75,000 - $110,000
Concerns:  Reliability, "Acceptable" Maintenance Costs, Density Altitude, Turbo Myths & Realities.
Aircraft Under Consideration:

• Mooney M20J
• Mooney M20K
• Piper Arrow III 28R-201
• Piper Turbo Arrow III 28R-201T
• Piper Arrow IV 28R-201

I am fairly new to living out in the desert and don't have a lot of experience with real-time density altitude issues. The reality is that may never fly in the Rockies, but I'll probably go up to Utah fairly often. Any advice would be most welcome!

 

 

Edited April 30, 2017 by SkyDweller

[KLRDMD]

1 minute ago, SkyDweller said:

Aircraft Under Consideration:

• Mooney M20J, Mooney M20K
• Piper Arrow III 28R-201
• Piper Turbo Arrow III 28R-201T
• Piper Arrow IV 28R-201

You need to put the M20K at the top of your list and eliminate those Piper products.

[peevee]

Airplane is an airplane. Buy what fits your mission and performance wants.

[gsengle]

M20K


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[SkyDweller]

Just now, peevee said:

Airplane is an airplane. Buy what fits your mission and performance wants.

As I see it, all of the airplanes I listed "fit my mission". I just think a more experienced pilot might be able to help me narrow the list down or open my eyes to something that is off my radar.

[KLRDMD]

1 minute ago, SkyDweller said:

As I see it, all of the airplanes I listed "fit my mission". I just think a more experienced pilot might be able to help me narrow the list down or open my eyes to something that is off my radar.

I'm in Vegas regularly (KHND), if we can meet up sometime I can show you why you need a 231/252/305.

[gsengle]

I've owned a Mooney and an Arrow. An Arrow is a fine plane and a good complex trainer. But I outgrew it quickly. They are built like a ford, very straight forward and pretty slow.

The Mooney is just faster and better made. It demands a little more from a pilot but it flies beautifully.

Take KLRDMD up on that ride. No one should buy an airplane before flying in the candidate types...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[mccdeuce]

My missions are relatively similar to yours. I fly mostly by myself or with my Fiancé +/- the pup.  

I am on the east coast. I generally start at sea level.  So I have an M20J. If I lived out that direction I would probably have a M20K. As is for me being on the low side - I can't get the pup wearing oxygen so I wanted to stay out of the oxygen zone. 

I am not a huge fan of the Arrow but this is also a Mooney forum...

If you dig around here you will see that KLRDMD has written a lot of posts about buying and selling aircraft and I believe he has the experience to back it up. So the best advice meet with him and go for a ride in his K.

[peevee]

15 minutes ago, SkyDweller said:

As I see it, all of the airplanes I listed "fit my mission". I just think a more experienced pilot might be able to help me narrow the list down or open my eyes to something that is off my radar.

Than buy what fits your budget. The n/a arrow will be cheaper to maintain I'm sure.

The people saying the Mooney is a better built aircraft... I don't see how you can quantify that.

I don't know what you expect a Mooney forum to point out that could be off your radar. You have already mentioned 2 models and suggesting a bravo probably accomplishes nothing.

[gsengle]

It's sturdier, little stuff breaks less. The single piece main wing spar. So far no difference in maintenance costs. I've owned both.

You're here for opinions. You don't get scientifically verified facts...




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[peevee]

Just now, gsengle said:

It's sturdier, little stuff breaks less. The single piece main wing spar. So far no difference in maintenance costs. I've owned both.

You're here for opinions. You don't get scientifically verified facts...




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

This wing is 100 percent wood. There are many airplanes and they all fit a mission. Nothing special about mooneys.

[gsengle]

And that's not an Arrow


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[SkyDweller]

PeeVee: 1611 posts. Any without snark?

[peevee]

2 minutes ago, gsengle said:

And that's not an Arrow


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

No? I thought it was the rare all wood arrow

[gsengle]

Can we help some guy with earnest advice without the trolling?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[peevee]

20 minutes ago, gsengle said:

Can we help some guy with earnest advice without the trolling?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

He's asking a Mooney forum if he should buy an arrow or a j/k I think we know what the resounding suggestion is going to be.

[gsengle]

That does imply we aren't able to impart factual information accurately, or to the degree we chose one type over an other, are unable to be honest in representing the trade-offs. Finally some of us have flown or even owned multiple types, most specifically here Mooney and Arrow. Loved my Arrow, but it's no Mooney.

Frankly just like the way 172s are overvalued for what they do due to their use as trainers and pilots who don't then explore other types, the arrow is probably the most common complex trainer. This probably inflates their value too.

Generally a Mooney will do 20kts more than an Arrow on the same engine. If you don't care at all about speed, then remove that from the analysis.

g


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[SkyDweller]

1 hour ago, peevee said:

He's asking a Mooney forum if he should buy an arrow or a j/k I think we know what the resounding suggestion is going to be.

When people ask me about investing in commercial real estate (my field of expertise), it is nice to know a little about the person, their finances, experience level, and the types of properties they have researched. This helps me provide an informed opinion!  Obviously posting in a Mooney forum, I have the expectation going in that members are going to be pro-Mooney. That is what is called a given!  Nonetheless, I listed airplanes that were "under consideration", with consideration being the key word. If you feel this post is beneath you, perhaps you should sit this one out.

[gsengle]

And yes, there is something special about Mooneys.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Jerry 5TJ]

I used to be based in N CA and flew into Las Vegas frequently as well as other desert and mountainous SW areas, similar to what you're planning.  I flew various planes over that route including Mooney C and E, a Commander 114B, a Cessna T210, a single turboprop and the Mooney Ovation.  

The C and the E were ok but getting to the MEAs out west was often a challenge. The 114B was least suitable.  The T210 was great for the Southwest and might approach your budget but it took more maintenance $ than the Mooneys.  It certainly would haul more than any Mooney -- full 90 gallons plus 1000 pounds in the cabin.  The turboprop was fastest, flew highest, carried less  load and cost more than the others combined. The Ovation although NA is surprisingly good up to the mid-teens but likely above your budget, tho some early S and R models may be close.  Likewise early Bravos are close to your price point

My personal suggestion is that a NA 200 hp Mooney or Piper isn't a great choice for the intermountain western USA.  A good K is likely the best relatively inexpensive choice on your list.  

Best luck hunting!

 

 

[Mooneymite]

Okay....I'll go out on a limb here.

I looked at your flight profile.  Based on what I see, you are probably buying more airplane that you really need.  (Is that possible?  )

If you look at the enroute time difference between a J and and E (or even a C) on a 150-300 NM trip, you're talking minutes.  90% one, or two people?  Why buy a long(er) body?

Though the J is a great (and desirable) plane the J demands a price delta which (in my opinion) is not justified by your mission profile.

Wouldn't you rather have a cherry E (or even a C) all tricked out for less than the cost of a basic J or K?

You are wise to buy a plane that fits your 90% trip profile and rent for those rare trips where you need more.

[gsengle]

Okay....I'll go out on a limb here.

I looked at your flight profile.  Based on what I see, you are probably buying more airplane that you really need.  (Is that possible?  )

If you look at the enroute time difference between a J and and E (or even a C) on a 150-300 NM trip, you're talking minutes.  90% one, or two people?  Why buy a long(er) body?

Though the J is a great (and desirable plane) the J demands a price delta which (in my opinion) is not justified by your mission profile.

Wouldn't you rather have a cherry E (or even a C) all tricked out for less than the cost of a basic J or K?

You are wise to buy a plane that fits your 90% trip profile and rent for those rare trips where you need more.

 

I would agree, except for the possible higher altitude airports.... besides if I didn't have an Ovation boy I'd really like to have an M20K 252.... something like this....

 

https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/1430983/1988-mooney-m20k-252tse

 

Or

 

https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/19092859/1987-mooney-m20k-252tse

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[peevee]

Just now, bluehighwayflyer said:

A K might be more than you need but I bet you would never regret "playing up". I love my J here in the East but would probably go turbo if I lived out there. Have you considered a RayJay turbo charged F?  Lots of value there if you can find a good one.

And to peevee, I have owned a PA-28 before, too, and I really liked it for what it was. I'm sorry, though, but build quality and design wise they are not even in the same league as a Mooney. 

I have a lot of hours in the p28 series. They're built just like every other airplane. Aluminum and rivets. 

[gsengle]

I have a lot of hours in the p28 series. They're built just like every other airplane. Aluminum and rivets. 

Yep and Yugos and Mercedes are also built both from steel. Same basic cars. Yup.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[TTaylor]

23 minutes ago, Mooneymite said:

Okay....I'll go out on a limb here.

I looked at your flight profile.  Based on what I see, you are probably buying more airplane that you really need.  (Is that possible?  )

If you look at the enroute time difference between a J and and E (or even a C) on a 150-300 NM trip, you're talking minutes.  90% one, or two people?  Why buy a long(er) body?

Though the J is a great (and desirable plane) the J demands a price delta which (in my opinion) is not justified by your mission profile.

Wouldn't you rather have a cherry E (or even a C) all tricked out for less than the cost of a basic J or K?

You are wise to buy a plane that fits your 90% trip profile and rent for those rare trips where you need more.

I agree with Mooneymite here.  A good E or F would serve your mission (I am partial to F's).  Pick up an F with a 201 windshield and put on the new cowling mod in a year when it is ready. The difference in flight time would be a few seconds to minutes on a 300NM trip compared to a J.  I also love when those that live on the east coast tell you that you need a turbo to fly out of Las Vegas.  We consider Las Vegas lowlands and my F has been quite happy in most of the west.  If you were flying over the heart of the Rockies often with 14K peaks I would recommend a K, but for 99 percent of the time smart flight planning will allow you to fly at 15K or less. You can get a very well equipped and maintained  F for $80K.  It will be an honest 150 knot plane at 9 gph.  

Tim