Dynon D10A

[KLRDMD]

It appears the Dynon D10A and D100 now have an STC for all Mooney M20s.

http://www.eaa.org/en/eaa/aviation-communities-and-interests/pilot-resources/eaa-stc-low-cost-avionics

[KSMooniac]

Hopefully the next development will be a matching HSI!

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[KLRDMD]

Just now, KSMooniac said:

Hopefully the next development will be a matching HSI!

Just looking how I can add this to my panel . . .

Pull the storm scope and move the vacuum AI in it's place, maybe .

[KSMooniac]

I currently have an electric backup horizon (with battery) but no HSI. I keep hoping someone will make a matching HSI to complement these electronic AI units, with reversionary capability like the Sandel units but at 1/5 the cost. I'm ready to remove my vacuum system too.

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[jonhop]

Now I want one... I'd buy it tomorrow if if it interfaced with my KAP-150! Perhaps that's not too far in the future...

[gsengle]

Side note: why do these Dynon units have such clunky amateur looking graphics? I would have trouble installing any of them for that reason...


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[gsxrpilot]

Hmmmm... could the D10A be the back up to my Aspen? The G5 could, but the Garmin STC is too restrictive. The D10A STC seems to be much broader.

[1964-M20E]

I like it.  However, I will let the dust settle for a little while or until I need to replace my current AI.

 

Really want an HSI version to replace my DG and CDI.

 

 

 

 

[Marauder]

2 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

Hmmmm... could the D10A be the back up to my Aspen? The G5 could, but the Garmin STC is too restrictive. The D10A STC seems to be much broader.

Jim Keeth from L3 explained to me how an AI backup to an Aspen needs to work in order to be legal:

"Although the ESI-500 does use airspeed as an aiding source for computing attitude (and I believe all AHRS systems for GA use either GPS or airspeed aiding), the ESI-500 has a degraded mode of operation if airspeed aiding is lost. Essentially, when in degraded mode, the ESI-500 attitude reverts to the performance level of a standard mechanical attitude indicator (TSO-c4c), rather than the performance level of an AHRS (TSO-C201)."

His explanation makes a lot of sense. In order for a G5 or a D10A to meet the backup requirement, it needs to be able to function at the same level of a standard mechanical AI. I would guess that other products could do this, but would require additional testing and certification documentation to make it legal.

[kevinw]

13 minutes ago, Marauder said:

Jim Keeth from L3 explained to me how an AI backup to an Aspen needs to work in order to be legal:

"Although the ESI-500 does use airspeed as an aiding source for computing attitude (and I believe all AHRS systems for GA use either GPS or airspeed aiding), the ESI-500 has a degraded mode of operation if airspeed aiding is lost. Essentially, when in degraded mode, the ESI-500 attitude reverts to the performance level of a standard mechanical attitude indicator (TSO-c4c), rather than the performance level of an AHRS (TSO-C201)."

His explanation makes a lot of sense. In order for a G5 or a D10A to meet the backup requirement, it needs to be able to function at the same level of a standard mechanical AI. I would guess that other products could do this, but would require additional testing and certification documentation to make it legal.

I have the Sandia SAI 340 as backup to my Aspen and it works the same way. I've seen it in degraded mode and it still works very well.

[Marauder]

I have the Sandia SAI 340 as backup to my Aspen and it works the same way. I've seen it in degraded mode and it still works very well.

Jim mentioned the Sandia as product that could fill that role.


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[gsxrpilot]

The G5 claims the same degraded but equal to the mechanical gauge performance, in their documentation also. But the STC only allows it to be used as a Primary instrument, and not a backup for anything.

Need to investigate this D10A a bit more.

[Marauder]

31 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

The G5 claims the same degraded but equal to the mechanical gauge performance, in their documentation also. But the STC only allows it to be used as a Primary instrument, and not a backup for anything.

Need to investigate this D10A a bit more.

Appears to be clever marketing as opposed to an actual certification. If you install it as a primary, you get the benefit of an AHRS driven AI that would degrade to a standard mechanical performance level. I'm sure it is only paperwork associated with some additional testing. If I were Garmin, I would certify it as a backup AI and take on the Sandia & L3 market.

[tigers2007]

What are the perks of installing the Dynon over the Garmin besides AoA? Pricing seems very similar. The complete kits come with the same accessories (antenna, etc).


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[Browncbr1]

Does the d10A stc require the hsi page to be permanently disabled for certified primary installs?  Perhaps the D100 won't be long for us too. 

[Cris]

The D10A offers a number of features above the G5 like an AOA but one of the more compelling is that the EAA intends to add the Autopilot function of the D10A to the STC. This will allow for a sophisticated autopilot add on for less than $2000 of additional hardware since the autopilot is already part of the D10A. It is only missing servos etc. I had intended to upgrade my Stec 30 with an Stec 55x which I own but now I'm not so sure. Maybe by Sun and Fun an announcement will be forthcoming about the autopilot function.

Edited January 14, 2017 by Cris

[M016576]

whichever one of these devices (G5, D10A, etc) adds the ability to drive a King autopilot first, will get my money..... or if Aspen brings down the price of their EA100 to something a little more reasonable than 3AMU's (like maybe 1AMU.. which is still overpriced).

[ArtVandelay]

whichever one of these devices (G5, D10A, etc) adds the ability to drive a King autopilot first, will get my money..... or if Aspen brings down the price of their EA100 to something a little more reasonable than 3AMU's (like maybe 1AMU.. which is still overpriced).

Garmin's GAD 43 is also almost 3 AMUs as well.
I'm waiting for EHSI,EAI combo that doesn't require an antenna like the Aspen, that can drive a DFC90 or similar (uses existing servos, etc). This will minimize the install costs which can be substantial.

[AaronDC8402]

Can the Dynon get it's GPS input from a panel-mount WAAS GPS? Or do all installs require an additional antenna? We chose the Garmin before this was available. If the Dynon requires an antenna install in all cases, my decision would still be Garmin. 

[1964-M20E]

On 1/13/2017 at 10:38 AM, gsxrpilot said:

The G5 claims the same degraded but equal to the mechanical gauge performance, in their documentation also. But the STC only allows it to be used as a Primary instrument, and not a backup for anything.

Need to investigate this D10A a bit more.

OK that makes all the sense in the world to me.  I can use it as a primary with no backup but I can't use it for a backup.

Anything say you can't have 2 primary instruments?

We always have been looking to these instruments to install as "backup" but if I can install it as primary why not 2 primary instruments?

 

[AaronDC8402]

19 minutes ago, 1964-M20E said:

We always have been looking to these instruments to install as "backup" but if I can install it as primary why not 2 primary instruments?

 

I've asked this in a couple of places. I've not seen anything indicating that's not OK. Aspen's STC requires a 2nd AI be installed that operates on a different power source than the Aspen. A vacuum AI obviously achieves that. A G5 with a backup battery as a power source seems to cover it as well. 

There are shops installing Aspens with a G5 as the 2nd AI.

[gsxrpilot]

This somewhat does make sense to me. Let me try to explain... or at least how I understand it.

There are certain instruments that are certified as Primary without any back up (G5, SAI-340, D10A, your vacuum driven mechanical AI, etc.)  Other instruments are certified to be Primary, but require a Backup (not Standby) these include the Aspen and G500.

The AI's that require a Backup, require that the Backup have a different source of orientation information (not a different source of power). The Aspen/G500 get their orientation by a combination of Pitot/Static and GPS. Therefore the backup must get it's orientation through some other method. Your vacuum driven AI gets its orientation from the gyro's and is powered by vacuum. The G5/SAI-340/D10A/etc get their orientation from pitot/static and gps which is the same as the Aspen/G500 and therefore can't be their backup.

Supposedly the G5/SAI-340/D10A all claim that even if the pitot/static fails, they are still as accurate as your mechanical gauge. But evidently only the ESI-500 is certified without the pitot/static and therefore will satisfy the requirements of Aspen and Garmin to back up their glass.

We believe the G5/SAI-340/D10A will all do just as well, but haven't been certified to that standard. Evidently there are some installers who are confident enough in their capability and the accompanying documentation to do the installs and signs the logs.

This is my understanding as a PP, not AI/A&P/FSDO/Garmin/Aspen/Dynon engineer.

[AaronDC8402]

10 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

The AI's that require a Backup, require that the Backup have a different source of orientation information (not a different source of power). The Aspen/G500 get their orientation by a combination of Pitot/Static and GPS. Therefore the backup must get it's orientation through some other method. Your vacuum driven AI gets its orientation from the gyro's and is powered by vacuum. The G5/SAI-340/D10A/etc get their orientation from pitot/static and gps which is the same as the Aspen/G500 and therefore can't be their backup.

Electronic AI's get their orientation from what is essentially a solid state electrical gyro. It's a chip on a circuit board. The pitot/static and GPS are supplementary to the device's operation. The Aspen requires the pitot/static, or it goes red X's. The G5 still functions without the pitot/static or GPS. They're just supplemental to the calculation that results in what you see on the display. I don't think the pitot/static and GPS are the primary way any electric AI calculates it's orientation in space.

 

Edited January 15, 2017 by AaronDC8402
typo

[gsxrpilot]

1 minute ago, AaronDC8402 said:

Electronic AI's get their orientation from what is essentially a solid state electrical gyro. It's a chip on a circuit board. The pitot/static and GPS are supplementary to the device's operation. The Aspen requires the pitot/static, or it goes red X's. The G5 still functions without the pitot/static or GPS. They're just supplemental to the calculation that results in what you see on the display. I don't think the pitot/static and GPS are the primary way any electric AI calculates it's orientation in space.

 

Agreed, but evidently since the pitot/static is part of the equation, even though supplemental, it doesn't satisfy the "letter of the law" in the STC for the Aspen or G500.

Again... just my understanding

[Marauder]

This somewhat does make sense to me. Let me try to explain... or at least how I understand it.
There are certain instruments that are certified as Primary without any back up (G5, SAI-340, D10A, your vacuum driven mechanical AI, etc.)  Other instruments are certified to be Primary, but require a Backup (not Standby) these include the Aspen and G500.
The AI's that require a Backup, require that the Backup have a different source of orientation information (not a different source of power). The Aspen/G500 get their orientation by a combination of Pitot/Static and GPS. Therefore the backup must get it's orientation through some other method. Your vacuum driven AI gets its orientation from the gyro's and is powered by vacuum. The G5/SAI-340/D10A/etc get their orientation from pitot/static and gps which is the same as the Aspen/G500 and therefore can't be their backup.
Supposedly the G5/SAI-340/D10A all claim that even if the pitot/static fails, they are still as accurate as your mechanical gauge. But evidently only the ESI-500 is certified without the pitot/static and therefore will satisfy the requirements of Aspen and Garmin to back up their glass.
We believe the G5/SAI-340/D10A will all do just as well, but haven't been certified to that standard. Evidently there are some installers who are confident enough in their capability and the accompanying documentation to do the installs and signs the logs.
This is my understanding as a PP, not AI/A&P/FSDO/Garmin/Aspen/Dynon engineer.

From what L-3's Jim Keith has stated and what Trek from Garmin also mentioned about the G5, I am sure it is all about having performed the required testing and obtaining the supporting FAA approvals. Trek mentioned the G5 is not under a TSO.

The L-3 offering is certified to function as a backup, the G5 is not. It is a different set of requirements to act as a primary. That unfortunately is the crazy world of certification.


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