Renew Jeppesen or Get iPad Mini/Foreflight or ?

carqwik · February 23, 2016

Jeppesen wants $250 to renew my annual subscription for the Southwest charts and JeppView. Personally, I like the Jepp charts but it is a PITA to have to go in and print out any updated charts. And I like have the physical route charts too.

The alternative...at least one of them...is to get an iPad Mini and get Foreflight or some other flight planning/chart software instead and just print out (from Airnav?) and selected charts needed as back up for any particular flight. However, this would be a higher initial investment ($500 for the latest iPad mini plus FF Pro at $150) but would give me the whole country if needed. (When I go out of range of the Southwest, I would simply buy the gov't charts, AFD, etc.)

I am definitely in the category of CB...and I am always leery of technology solutions which don't seem to last very long. Anyone remember the Palm Pilot?

And there's the issue of dead batteries in the iPad during a critical time. I can barely get a day out of my cell phone (LG G4)...

What do you guys think? Are there any less expensive alternatives (Android tablet and software?) that work just as well? Or is the best think the iPad mini and FF?

orionflt · February 23, 2016

I use an Ipad mini with Garmin pilot as my electronic flight bag, I have had no issues with it. I can print out approach plates or chart sections if I want paper copies for the cockpit and I also have it loaded on my Iphone as a backup to the Ipad.

Brian

Mooneymite · February 23, 2016

Talking about apps is like discussing religion here on Mooneyspace...everyone has their own prefence and it's always the best.

I may not have the best, but I bought a Samsung Tab-4 7" (at an extremely good price!) added a micro SD card (also cheap) and loaded FltPlan GO!

This FREE app does everything I need. Always up-to-date charts and plates (FREE) and you can download your fltplan.com flights directly to it. The tablet GPS tracks on whatever chart (IFR, VFR) or approach plate you're displaying.

If all you need is charts and plates, this provides them for free, but it does so much more.

Edited February 23, 2016 by Mooneymite

**Jeff_S** · February 23, 2016

Rather than talk about specific apps, I think we can generalize to say that any of us who have made the switch to electronic charts would never look back. As far as the (potential) technical issues you cite, I have never once had my iPad crash while in flight. But if you are using ForeFlight, then you can have duplicate charts on your iPhone just in case your iPad fritzes out, so you've got a belt for your suspenders.

No matter which app you use, I think you'll find the speed, ease of access and ease of updating the electronic charts will be quite superior to lugging around a bunch of paper. And add geolocation on the charts while you're in flight to the benefits list, which is something a paper chart will never do.

kortopates · February 23, 2016

I agree with the comments to go electronic and dump the paper. One just has to get into the electronic mindset for backups. I am a Jeppesen user as well, and although their app only runs on the iPad, I also have Garmin Pilot and WingX on my iPad and iPhone. Plus I have my Jepp charts displayed on the panel (GMX200 which will be a G500 soon). I prefer Jepp charts but will use NOAA on longer x-ctry trips and Jepp trip kits for outside of the country (e.g., Latin america). So I have plenty of backups. I also carry a battery backup to charge my ipad if I needed external power for my iPad or iPhone - they are very inexpensive. It really is a personal decision on you want to work with.

Edited February 23, 2016 by kortopates

N33GG · February 23, 2016

I am an old pilot, and change is rather difficult for me at this point in my life. I was very hesitant to let my paper charts go, but I have made the total switch to electronic, and will never go back. For a year or two, I carried and used both to get my comfort level up. Now I just carry my iPad. Oh, I also have a panel mounted GPS, as well as a Garmin 496. Compared to not that many years ago, incredible capability and backup. Regardless of what App you wind up with, let the Jepps go.

I have a full size iPad with ForeFlight, and love it. However, I now am leaning toward buying a mini iPad as well. I can see the benefits of the mini, but will still want the full size iPad for some things. Sometimes, more glass is a plus, and sometimes more glass is a minus. In the near future, I will probably have both in my cockpit.

FWIW

**Hank** · February 23, 2016

The ipad mini is a sweet machine, if you can handle the typical Apple product frustration--you can't load anything onto it without going through apple, you can't get anything out of it without going through apple, there are no memory cards, no card slots, no USB ports, no nothing without going through apple. Within those limits, the ipad mini is great.

I still have an ancient Galaxy 7" tablet, and I keep [free!] Avare on it and on my Samsung phone. Every now and then I will update plates, sectionals, enroutes, WACs, whatever I need. Although the [also free!] FlightPlanGO! looks quite tempting. Avare is great for planning long flights, but it will not file the flight plan for you, which is fine because I still call the 800 number for a last minute weather briefing and my flights are almost always direct [except I've learned the two routes around ATL since Approach is allergic to through-traffic using the approved T-routes.

Play with the free ones and see if you like it. I still buy bound NOAA plates and paper sectionals, I like to be able to look ahead more than 3-4", no zooming in and out required.

**midlifeflyer** · February 23, 2016

2 hours ago, carqwik said:

Jeppesen wants $250 to renew my annual subscription for the Southwest charts and JeppView. Personally, I like the Jepp charts but it is a PITA to have to go in and print out any updated charts. And I like have the physical route charts too.

The alternative...at least one of them...is to get an iPad Mini and get Foreflight or some other flight planning/chart software instead and just print out (from Airnav?) and selected charts needed as back up for any particular flight. However, this would be a higher initial investment ($500 for the latest iPad mini plus FF Pro at $150) but would give me the whole country if needed. (When I go out of range of the Southwest, I would simply buy the gov't charts, AFD, etc.)

I am definitely in the category of CB...and I am always leery of technology solutions which don't seem to last very long. Anyone remember the Palm Pilot?

And there's the issue of dead batteries in the iPad during a critical time. I can barely get a day out of my cell phone (LG G4)...

What do you guys think? Are there any less expensive alternatives (Android tablet and software?) that work just as well? Or is the best think the iPad mini and FF?

Let's take some of these questions separately. This is my take:

Jepp vs FAA charts. For years many folks had a preference for Jepp charts despite their higher cost. Me too. Online forum discussions of the preference centered on better paper and better information depiction. The first obviously has no relevance to an EFB. Much, but not all, of the second was removed by the advent of the briefing strip available on both sets. What I have seen overall has been a steady migration of GA away from Jepp and toward FAA charts, in large part due to the substantially lower cost of Garmin Pilot, ForeFlight, WingX, Avare, DroidEFB and every other non-Jepp EFB app.

Tech length. Yeah i had a Palm Pilot. And used Laurie Davis'd Co Pilot (which is interestingly available for iOS). I have had a desktop PC for more than 25 years. We we have now with tablets is likely to go forward, not backward . With the real lifespan of any hardware platform being about 3-4 years at the most, you are going to be keeping up with the changes. OTOH, if you found the transition from DOS to Windows next to impossible, the thought of switching from PC to Linux to Apple makes you think you will need to take a 2-year course, or every change ever made to Microsoft Word made it impossible for you to get things done for a few weeks, yeah, I'd be concerned about the technology.

Dead batteries. I was just in a discussion in another forum with the subject "What do you do when the batteries go dead in your iPad?" It was started tongue-in-cheek with poll answers like "Pray and/or die" but it got serious. FWIW, this is a copy and paste of my response.

My iPad battery doesn't just "go dead" out of nowhere in flight. I try to manage my electronic chart source just as I managed my paper source in the past.

Management to me means a few things.

Start a flying day fully charged. In the past I really did try to make sure I had current charts and I had them in my flight bag. Also fresh batteries in my ANR headset*. Charging my iPad overnight the night before a flight isn't any more difficult.
In flight, I look at that little number up in the corner. You know, the one that tells me how much charge is left. Just like I do when monitoring aircraft instruments and systems.
I dim the screen or turn the screen off entirely when I don't actively need it. That's pretty much what I did with paper charts when I used them - put them aside when I wasn't actively using them in flight. In the case of my EFB, that also conserves battery.
My flight bag contains an adapter so I can plug it in if the aircraft has a receptacle. Funny I used to do that with my old Garmin 396 as it (and its battery) aged.
I also have back-up battery that will give me at least an hour extended use (actually a lot more than that). I figure if that's good enough for a fully certified glass panel, it's good enough for me. The monitoring in #2 means I don't wait until it's dead before I do something about it since it's not quite as simple as throwing one switch on the panel.

Android vs iOS (nothing yet seems to be of note on the Surface platform). Android tablets are a bit less in price but the differential gets smaller if you are looking for a good, reliable tablet. iPads are uniform; Android tablets come from all over the place and so is their quality. iOS EFB apps have the advantage of greater maturity, if only because the first viable Android tablet didn't show up for a year or two after ForeFlight and WingX made their appearance about/almost 5 years ago. But they are coming along and should not be discounted at this point.

Which app? 100% a personal preference item. The iOS apps differ in a few substantial features but the gap keeps getting smaller. Same for the best of the Android apps. The difference lies in the UI - the user interface - how you access those features and how they are depicted. It's what you like and what make the more intuitive sense to you. And once making the selection, despite all the advances and bells and whistles , the one you chose initially is the one you end up being the most comfortable with. So while I am familiar with a number of iOS and Andorid EFB apps, my primary continues to be the one I chose originally.

**midlifeflyer** · February 23, 2016

1 hour ago, Jeff_S said:

Rather than talk about specific apps, I think we can generalize to say that any of us who have made the switch to electronic charts would never look back. As far as the (potential) technical issues you cite, I have never once had my iPad crash while in flight. But if you are using ForeFlight, then you can have duplicate charts on your iPhone just in case your iPad fritzes out, so you've got a belt for your suspenders.

No matter which app you use, I think you'll find the speed, ease of access and ease of updating the electronic charts will be quite superior to lugging around a bunch of paper. And add geolocation on the charts while you're in flight to the benefits list, which is something a paper chart will never do.

This past year, my flying club had a fly-out. My wife and I shared a plane with a member who had been away from aviation and returning. He asked if he could go under the hood for the trip and treat it as IFR. No problem. So there he was, treating it as an IFR flight, folding and unfolding en route charts, thumbing for approach plates, all the things we all used to do.

After we landed, my wife, a non-pilot and not the most tech-comfortable person around, said to me, "Wow! I see why you love your iPad. That looked like a lot of work!"

ArtVandelay · February 23, 2016

Doesn't everybody have 12v outlet? I just plug my iDevices in, no worries about battery issues. I did have my iPad mini overheat, fix that problem with sun shade and aiming foot vent towards iPad .

**midlifeflyer** · February 23, 2016

Just now, teejayevans said:

Doesn't everybody have 12v outlet? I just plug my iDevices in, no worries about battery issues. I did have my iPad mini overheat, fix that problem with sun shade and aiming foot vent towards iPad .

No. The newer Cessnas and some others something other than the traditional "cigarette lighter" outlet. And many others with the traditional outlet are feeding 24 and 28v current not 12v. There are adapters, of course.

N33GG · February 23, 2016

13 minutes ago, Hank said:

The ipad mini is a sweet machine, if you can handle the typical Apple product frustration--you can't load anything onto it without going through apple, you can't get anything out of it without going through apple, there are no memory cards, no card slots, no USB ports, no nothing without going through apple. Within those limits, the ipad mini is great.

I still have an ancient Galaxy 7" tablet, and I keep [free!] Avare on it and on my Samsung phone. Every now and then I will update plates, sectionals, enroutes, WACs, whatever I need. Although the [also free!] FlightPlanGO! looks quite tempting. Avare is great for planning long flights, but it will not file the flight plan for you, which is fine because I still call the 800 number for a last minute weather briefing and my flights are almost always direct [except I've learned the two routes around ATL since Approach is allergic to through-traffic using the approved T-routes.

Play with the free ones and see if you like it. I still buy bound NOAA plates and paper sectionals, I like to be able to look ahead more than 3-4", no zooming in and out required.

I agree Hank. Apple is definitely a love/hate relationship! Don't get me started on the hate side of the equation.

**KSMooniac** · February 23, 2016

I'm using Garmin Pilot on an iPad Mini Retina and am very satisfied with it so far. I'm not a power user yet, but it works great, especially with the GDL-39 (3D) for ADS-B. Last December I bought a cheap Nexus 7 android tablet (~$120) for a backup and loaded fltplan.com's app. I've been very fond of fltplan.com for many years for flight plan creation and filing and still use it, although I am going to try to migrate that function to Garmin.

Anyway, my point is the Nexus 7 is running the latest version of android (6.0) and is very, very snappy/responsive. The screen is excellent. fltplan.com app is free and works great too. This makes for a very capable backup with no recurring cost. I agree with the above comment about the spectrum of android hardware...some tablets are crap, but others are superior to the iPads. This little Nexus 7 is superior. My only complaint is the lack of SD card slot so I can't load much beyond the fltplan app. That is fine with me though since it is just a backup.

I'm not bringing any paper on my upcoming 1000 miles trip to the west coast except for a notepad on my knee board desk.

steingar · February 23, 2016

For the price of the annual Jepp subscription I bought a Stratus receiver off Ebay. The iPad was expensive, but I also have an iPad to use, and I actually use it extensively in my job. The absolute best thing I've done. The software is intuitive and the situational awareness can't be beat. And the tablet is useful.

**midlifeflyer** · February 23, 2016

2 hours ago, KSMooniac said:

I'm not bringing any paper on my upcoming 1000 miles trip to the west coast except for a notepad on my knee board desk.

Other than things like the POH and official documents that are "part of" the airplane, my paper consists of:

A notepad, sometimes but not usually attached to a kneeboard. I found one hot summer day that sweaty fingers don't write well on a tablet. Although I now use a stylus, the paper notebook is there for a quick note when I don't want to tap or slide to a scratch pad on my tablet.
A sticky note pad. It can do the functions of #1 but it's really there to cover an AI and/or DG in case of a vacuum or other failure.
Checklists. Even after almost 5 years, I keep going back and forth whether I want to use the identical ones on my iPad or leave the iPad for more important stuff and use paper ones.

peevee · February 23, 2016

electronic all the way.

No one has mentioned the improved situational awareness with the GPS position overlay on the IPAD charts. I do find my yoke mount vibrates a little too much and that's annoying, but better than juggling a kneeboard with the ipad and a paper pad to scribble with.

I never find the wingx scratchpad very convenient.

Edited February 23, 2016 by peevee

**KSMooniac** · February 23, 2016

I agree with the above two comments... I should have emphasized that I still use a real checklist (laminated card right now), a pencil and pad for recording ATIS, clearances, notes, times, etc. as I don't like digging into a tablet app to find a scratch pad. They seem like a gimmick, but I guess they don't really cost anything to include in an app.

I've seen electronic checklists built into panel-mount avionics and I don't like them at all. Too time consuming to use, and too slow to find emergency items when needed. YMMV

peevee · February 23, 2016

1 hour ago, KSMooniac said:

I agree with the above two comments... I should have emphasized that I still use a real checklist (laminated card right now), a pencil and pad for recording ATIS, clearances, notes, times, etc. as I don't like digging into a tablet app to find a scratch pad. They seem like a gimmick, but I guess they don't really cost anything to include in an app.

I've seen electronic checklists built into panel-mount avionics and I don't like them at all. Too time consuming to use, and too slow to find emergency items when needed. YMMV

I guess I used the electronic checklist in the cirrus, it was OK I guess, but I'm with you, paper all the way.

**carusoam** · February 23, 2016

Avoiding the hardware preference argument to get to the warm fuzzy discussion of why an old guy may prefer a tablet over paper charts... (My brain is older than most)

1) apple products just work. They cost more.

2) other tablets work too. They take more effort/knowledge/cognitive skills.

3) tablets do more than phones, software, memory and hardware chips, not just big screens and larger batteries.

For guys getting aged before their time, I share my IPad experience... My ipad1 is about 5 years old. It still works even though it is unsupported. A new one is an improvement and it will last five years as well. A new iPad is nowhere the challenge of getting a new Windows desktop up and running...

A: borrow an iPad use it a whole day.

B: try the following. (An IPad is a lifestyle changer) other tablets work well too. Don't confuse phone experience with tablet experience. They are different still. Carry both while flying.

C: Try this with your borrowed iPad....

- read the news paper on it. USA Today will always have the latest plane incident within minutes of it happening.

- see what's going on on MooneySpace. 24/7...

- check your favorite sports team score, go Pats or Giants or Joe's Broncos!

- watch a Movie. I hear that Top Gun movie is pretty good. Netflix may be needed.

- check you retirement 401k or favorite stock (Garmin, BK, or Rockwell Collins) Honeywell put in an offer to buy United technologies today...

- See what coupon is being offered at Dunkin's, know where Dunkin's is and navigate there in your new city. Same for that upscale coffee co....

- Look up a technical detail in the POH for your plane. Because you can. Stall speed at 30° bank partially loaded.

- check on fuel prices around NJ.

- navigate accross the country using WingX. Or other...

- review instrument procedures at various airports while you are at lunch.

- call your family using FaceTime from the hotel in a foreign country.

- make a call using Skype from a foreign country when your trusty AT&T phone card no longer works.

- Pay for something using Apple Pay because your wallet seems to be missing.

- check the weather using your ADSB. (SkyRadar or wifi may be required)

- check where the traffic really is that ATC just told you is at 12:00 but you don't see it with the MKI eyeball. (Sky radar again)

- are you tired? see how much sleep you actually got last night. Compare to the night before. (Fitbit may be required)

- see how you heart rate is doing while flying around thunderstorms. (Fitbit may be required)

- stuck somewhere? Do a crossword puzzle. Train your brain using lumosity.

- Send an email to somebody at Mooney. See if you can get a return.

- Plug it in, car, plane wall socket (proper charging device may be required)

- take a picture of your blazing ground speed upload it to MooneySpace.

- grab a page out of a parts manual share it in an email.

- look up a years old email you wrote to the guys at the Mooney Caravan group. Share their contact info.

- every 28 days or so update your charts while taking a dinner break.

- watch the weekly AOPA television program. They are fun and informative.

- take a screenshot of a doodle you made showing a 3mi base vs. a 3 mi. Final to support your idea of what the controller said vs what the controller meant.

- read a European aviation magazine online.

- at the end of the day reflect on what you used it for. Then share it with your friends.

- Order a domino's pizza online to celebrate your new 'less hindered’ life style.

- use your free time to develop pro paper chart arguments.

- order a mount for your iPad that you just bought to replace the one you borrowed.

- situational awareness using GPS and Synthetic Visibility. You're on a three mile final, is the proper runway in front of you on the iPad? It better be.

- ADHARS makes an iPad into a backup AI.

- measure your actual T/O run while fully loaded on a hot day at sea level. Compare to POH book values on your electronic bookshelf.

- no secretarial filing experience required. Updating paper procedure charts that come in the mail was so 90's.

- GPWS... The ground is awfully close when your chart turns red.

- Looking for an upgrade? Planes for sale or the latest electronics are a few taps away.

- This is done from the comfort of your favorite morning chair, afternoon chair, dinner chair or borrowed chair at a local Dunkin's.

- file a flight plan on your favorite app. Get the expected route back from ATC on your tablet.

- do a WnB on your other favorite app.

- determine the density altitude prior to departure.

- Calculate your estimated take off length. Compare it to the actual T/O length later on...

- Review your actual flight path on fliteaware.com

These ideas just come to mind. They don't take much thinking to generate how technology continues to make us better at what we do.

Best regards,

-a-

**laytonl** · February 24, 2016

Well said!

rbridges · February 24, 2016

I've used foreflight for a few years, and I really like it. At the moment, I have a 16GB mini. Prior to that, I had an original ipad. The original ipad go to the point of being sluggish, but now the mini is starting to take a moment to switch screens. I was going to mention getting a used ipad. If you like the mini, get at least a mini 2. 16GB works ok for me, but you'd probably want more space. I don't have much room left, and I only keep current on 2-3 states at a time.

N601RX · February 24, 2016

The iPad can be used for so much more than just flight. I delayed getting mine 5 years ago for over a year, telling myself I wouldn't use it much or it cost to much. I still have it and use it daily. It's one of the best purchases I have made. I no longer carry a laptop when I travel.

**Hank** · February 24, 2016

Love my iPad, but don't use it to fly. Avare on an ancient Galaxy Tablet 1 keeps generally 5 sectionals, 3-4 low enroutes and approach plates for half a dozen states. Not sure of the memory, but it's old and not much. Its a wonderful planning tool, can scroll all around then zoom in to read what disappears in the larger views.

I've tried writing on various scratch pads on my Galaxy, two cell phones and my iPad mini retina. While sitting in a chair with all four legs firmly on the ground, my writing looks worse than with a pen in heavy turbulence. Can't imagine trying to write meaningful notes on a scratch pad in the air, much less trying to read the resulting mess. What I've sen people post here from their pads looks abysmal too. Not for me--sometimes paper is good.

As for situational awareness with the GPS overlay, that's what the certified panel-mounted GPS is for. Despite some strange buttonology, the G430W does this pretty well, and I also keep up with my position on the sectional "just in case." But I also like having the sectional to review with topo information, so there's usually one or two rattling around the cockpit. Since I grew up on the interstates, I've been reading and folding maps my whole life.

Edited February 24, 2016 by Hank

carqwik · February 24, 2016

Do the other free products like Avare provide geo-referenced charts? I tried to determine this on the Avare website but was unable to verify.

So far, my takeaway is that once you go to electronic, you never come back to paper....I may have to make the switch...

**Hank** · February 24, 2016

Avare shows my little plane on the sectional. Don't recall if it does on approach plates, too--not sure I've remembered to use it when practicing.

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