Flew first Mooney today!

[Corvus]

Corvus, I know MANY new pilots who get trained after PPL with instructor and do fine in complex airplanes. Not rocket science you can kill yourself as easy in a Cessna as a Mooney or Cirrus or Bonanza. So I agree to disagree. If 17 year old kids can get trained to fly jets not see Bonanza or Mooney as that hard to learn safely with dual instruction and time.

Sky newbie, as a full time professional pilot, I am honored to be talking with a guy who has MANY friends who are pilots. I merely have the humble lower case "several." I agree that you can get checked out post ppl in a complex airplane, it's a little extra work, but as you stated, not rocket science. Granted, those systems need to be operated in a timely manner when the workload is high. But you are also right in that training, and time is the recipie for success. However I think you may not fully appreciate the fast and high flying part yet. Its not the machine, its the environment its operated in, and being able to do so safely and competently is where expirience, judgement and descision making come into play far more than being able to move levers, knobs, sticks and switches.. Asking about control effort when you should asking about things like the endurance of a TKS system if it has one, or the airplanes ability to carry ice when the cards are down Or simply approaching the idea of owning one before having an instrument rating. (which you seem to be shrugging off as a minor technicality. )All point to suggesting that you don't quite have an appreciation for flying in the environment where turbo mooney's were born to fly, and that is why it would be wise to get some time under your belt, and get some ratings before you go write a check and pull a JFK Jr on us. You can absolutley become a safe competent pilot, fully capable of flying pretty much whatever you want, but it is a process that takes time, patience, a healthy respect and a willingness to learn. An open mind makes the process more enjoyable and in many cases faster and more productive.

The 17 year old kid getting checked out In a jet, technically possible I suppose. But I personally have never heard of it, however I will give you the benefit of the doubt. I think I get your point, but remember that expirience is measured in hours in the logbook, not candles on your cake for what it's worth. One does not make up for the other...

By the way if you look at the tail number in my avatar and reference that M20F for rent at KPAO, you will notice they have something in common. You are more than welcome to fly it obviously. I have it set at $170 an hour TACH right now, it's one heck of a deal. I may prohibit initial complex checkout in the plane in the near future, depending on how things go from a maintiance and abuse standpoint. but as of now, all you need is a membership to WVFC, a PPL, 125TT and 10 hours of checkout time with a phase check.

[flyboy0681]

 

 

Very nice and 201J is lot more affordable than the 252/Ovations for a new pilot on a budget :-)

Was it difficult flying to Bahamas? Did you have to get special radio operator license? I  want to fly to Caymans and Mexico after having a plane.

 

Flying to the islands is easy but for those that haven't flown over a wide expanse of water without having land in sight it could be a bit unsettling. There is a also a lot of administrative work to be done, from filling out forms in triplicate upon arrival to paying the now $25 per person departure tax.

 

Here is a video that explains it all and even includes a Mooney in certain scenes.

 

[benpilot]

@Corvus, well many engineers in the bay area are pilots so it makes the process easier than in many places. Good to know you are the owner of the Mooney at WVFC in Palo Alto. I am in no rush and taking my time to become a good safe competent pilot. 

[OR75]

By the way if you look at the tail number in my avatar and reference that M20F for rent at KPAO, you will notice they have something in common. You are more than welcome to fly it obviously. I have it set at $170 an hour TACH right now, it's one heck of a deal. I may prohibit initial complex checkout in the plane in the near future, depending on how things go from a maintiance and abuse standpoint. but as of now, all you need is a membership to WVFC, a PPL, 125TT and 10 hours of checkout time with a phase check.

 

 

You are very brave Corvus !

Most of us owners have underutilized aircrafts that could be made available to a flight school or FBO for rent. 

However, reading threads like this one is excatly why I won't do it.

[benpilot]

@Corvus, don't worry, I will make sure to have a competent CFI check me out on your Mooney and to fly it safely without damage it. I know how personal aircraft are so dear to pilot's hearts, its like an extension of your immediate family 

[flyboy0681]

. I have it set at $170 an hour TACH right now, it's one heck of a deal.

 

I don't want to sound mean spirited but $170 an hour tach for the plane doesn't sound like that much of a bargain considering the antiquated panel that it currently has. For $10 more one could rent the West Valley's Diamondstar with a glass panel and all the amenities. Then again a person could rent the 2007 Acclaim right next door for $348 an hour. I guess that's life in the Bay Area.

[Corvus]

OR75, Brave, certainly not, It is something worth spending time considering before trying undoubtedly. Being that I work with aircraft, my perspective is probably a little different.  I wouldn't lease it to a flight school or an FBO either, but the club environment is a little more long term for most members and it ends up being its own little community. If people feel they have a sense of being part of something, they tend to be more respectful, especially the types of people in aviation. New guys get it figured out if they listen and learn. There are a lot of stop gates in place to prevent someone who isn't ready from being able to take the plane out. By the time someone has met those requirements, and jumped through the hoops they are ready for the airplane. You have to realize that someone who rents mooney, does so to fly the mooney, not necessarily to meet a requirement. I have had no issues with people getting thier complex in the plane, but I am not daft, and realize that my opinion on that might change if I start seeing issues, but at this point I have not. Its a trade off, I would rather have the plane fly a little more and keep oil on the cam, keep the cobwebs out and deal with an occasional club member induced squak, versus having it sit and develop problems due to under utilization. We all know that aircraft don't like to sit. and we all have full intention of flying the plane as often as it deserves, but the realities of life sometimes make that a challenge. I would rather someone else enjoy it durring those times. Mooney's are hell for strong airplanes, If a nightmare ever becomes a reality, thats what legal entities, policies and good insurance are for. Bottom line is that if you can stand to let someone else fart in it, and occasionally break something that they pay for, its a pretty darn good way to have all of the benefits of owning the plane you want to fly set up the way you like without being married to it.

[benpilot]

+1 Corvus, WVFC and the clubs at KPAO have good rules for checkouts to ensure that students are safe and do not damage the aircraft. Works both ways, the owner gets to have the plane fly regularly and the pilot has opportunity to fly different aircraft.

[Corvus]

flyboy0681, I don't think that is a mean spirited question. People get confused about the difference between hobbs and tach time.

 

Hobbs= once there is oil pressure, you pay a flat hourly rate, it doesn't matter if you are idling, taxiing, on take off or cruising. .

 

Tach = a time counter which is geared in such a way that it only counts a true 1:1 hour when the engine is operating at full RPM. So taxing is next to free, pattern work is much cheaper becuase you are only using the full price time for part of the pattern etc.

Tach time works out to an average savings of 20% over hobbs time. So if we are comparing apples to apples, I am charging about $136 an hour in equivalent time. For a plane that is faster, has better useful load and better range than the Dstar at $185...
The Panel has a GNS430 kx155 and KN64. its really everything you need without the weight penalty of a full glass cockpit on a light GA single. but thats just me. 

 

I think the acclaim is gone, but even if it was still around for 348 an hour? you would find me in a Cessna 310 long before the acclaim at that price. 

[Hank]

The Cessna 310 here can't be had for $348/hour . . . but then again, it has upgraded engines, 300 hp each. Kind of took my desire for MEL away when fuel went up and took rental prices with it.

[OR75]

OR75, Brave, certainly not, It is something worth spending time considering before trying undoubtedly. Being that I work with aircraft, my perspective is probably a little different.  I wouldn't lease it to a flight school or an FBO either, but the club environment is a little more long term for most members and it ends up being its own little community. If people feel they have a sense of being part of something, they tend to be more respectful, especially the types of people in aviation. New guys get it figured out if they listen and learn. There are a lot of stop gates in place to prevent someone who isn't ready from being able to take the plane out. By the time someone has met those requirements, and jumped through the hoops they are ready for the airplane. You have to realize that someone who rents mooney, does so to fly the mooney, not necessarily to meet a requirement. I have had no issues with people getting thier complex in the plane, but I am not daft, and realize that my opinion on that might change if I start seeing issues, but at this point I have not. Its a trade off, I would rather have the plane fly a little more and keep oil on the cam, keep the cobwebs out and deal with an occasional club member induced squak, versus having it sit and develop problems due to under utilization. We all know that aircraft don't like to sit. and we all have full intention of flying the plane as often as it deserves, but the realities of life sometimes make that a challenge. I would rather someone else enjoy it durring those times. Mooney's are hell for strong airplanes, If a nightmare ever becomes a reality, thats what legal entities, policies and good insurance are for. Bottom line is that if you can stand to let someone else fart in it, and occasionally break something that they pay for, its a pretty darn good way to have all of the benefits of owning the plane you want to fly set up the way you like without being married to it.

 

I can understand your view and the time it takes to keep an aircraft flying enough.  But we must have diiferent on what we can accept for normal wear and tear.

Another factor, is that I have not done done the math to see to see if it makes $$$ wise.

All know is that owning an aircraft rarely makes money sense.

 

I am not sure of the nuance between a flying club or a flight school.  Anyone - I mean really anyone - can join any of the two for instruction.

Possibly, a club has a core or members who like to hangout at the airport all weekend.

[Corvus]

Hank, I will admit, It has been a while since I have looked at 310 prices, they very well may have gone up, that was just the number in the back of my mind.

 

OR75, I can completely see where you and many others are coming from. 

 

I went through a part 141 flight school for my ratings, worked at a few and do the club thing now when I am not a work. So I hope that qualifies me to shed some light. Flight Schools have a high average pilot turn over rate and relatively low experience level across the board, except for senior instructors and the chief pilot. Those aircraft are flown all day everyday, I don't think 1500 hours a year is uncommon. and those are hard earned hours with hard landings, door slamming, throttle cuts, flap over speeds etc. I would consider that to be a bit much for a plane that I cared about. surprisingly they hold up very well and rarely don't make TBO. 

FBO's are sort of all across the board, they seem to generally be a little more lenient about rentals.

 

Club aircraft fly far less, and are flown by established members to whatever minimums you as the owner set. I don't plan on 7753M flying more than 200 hours a year, which is pretty reasonable. Yes anyone can join and learn to fly, but as I stated there is a process to getting checked out and by the time someone straps into 7753M by themselves, they have a PPL at least 125 TT and they are one of a handful and they have passed muster with an instructor and been crosschecked by another senior instructor and are required to keep current. so to summarize, less hours flown on the airframe, and more experienced regular pilots than the School or FBO. If you are willing to do that you can break even or even make a little cash to put back into your own flying fund. If you set it up like a business with an LLC owning the airplane, there are tax advantages as well.   

[OR75]

 

Club aircraft fly far less, and are flown by established members to whatever minimums you as the owner set. I don't plan on 7753M flying more than 200 hours a year, which is pretty reasonable. Yes anyone can join and learn to fly, but as I stated there is a process to getting checked out and by the time someone straps into 7753M by themselves, they have a PPL at least 125 TT and they are one of a handful and they have passed muster with an instructor and been crosschecked by another senior instructor and are required to keep current. so to summarize, less hours flown on the airframe, and more experienced regular pilots than the School or FBO. If you are willing to do that you can break even or even make a little cash to put back into your own flying fund. If you set it up like a business with an LLC owning the airplane, there are tax advantages as well.   

 

 

 

I would have thought that the aircraft total hours per years would be set by the aircraft type (i.e. mission), price and agreement with the club. 

 

Would you say a basic VFR 152 or basic IFR 172 would log 200 hours a year in club ?

 

Also, all flight schools I have seen have minimum requirements (usually rating + checkout with school CFI + hours)

They seem lower but only becasue the school usually have trainers. Try to rent a twin or a float from a school if they have one !

 

I once come across a place in TX where you just had to show your ID and licence to rent an aircraft (172) . That was about 15 years ago. I am sure that's gone now. Good old days !

[robert7467]

Well, let me chime in here. I learned in a Mooney, and I have no issue flying the plane, and it's all I know. I think the heaviness has to do with the wing leveler, and you can disable by putting a rubber band around the button on the yoke, then she will feel light as a 172. I don't recommend disabling the wing leveler in case you get into some soup, but if you wanted to disable while you are doing pattern work, I can see where it would reduce your workload, or it might not benefit you at all, and I am sure others on here will give their 2 cents. The only thing I can say that might be sound advice, is that when you get your license, don't think that you know it all, and realize that a PPL just covers a tip of the iceberg, and you will still have a lot of work to do in order to be safe, and you have to treat it with the upmost professionalism, and respect. That's my 2 cents.

[Corvus]

OR75, I am not sure about other clubs, but there is not a fixed hours agreement where I have the aircraft. The club is a non profit operation and generates revenue for costs and improvements through memberships and taking an operational fee based on a percentage of the hour billed.

 

I have no idea what the 152's would average in a year. They are not as popular in the club environment as they are the flight school environment, club members seem to have a more relaxed budget for their flight training and flying. The bread and butter of our club are 172SP's so those see a lot more action,and I would call them the standard trainer. Those with G1000's are very popular....  
I think I remember at one point hearing that we have a 172SP that had averaged 50 hours per month, but that was well above the average. My guess would be somewhere around 400 hours a year. Aerobatics are also seemingly pretty popular in the club, i think the Citabria's and Super Decathalon are pretty active.

 

A twin or a float plane would be a cool to rent! I think I would need prescription medication if I owned an airplane that a guy could walk in and flash a drivers license for!  I would bet your right its gone, especially with the post 9/11 stuff.  

[benpilot]

This is actually turning into a great discussion in terms of what is involved with leaseback arrangements with owner/operators and flight clubs/schools. 

 

@Corvus, now you're talking! Flying to Alaska to learn bush flying or seaplane would be quite a vacation.

[KSMooniac]

 

Yes anyone can join and learn to fly, but as I stated there is a process to getting checked out and by the time someone straps into 7753M by themselves, they have a PPL at least 125 TT and they are one of a handful and they have passed muster with an instructor and been crosschecked by another senior instructor and are required to keep current. so to summarize, less hours flown on the airframe, and more experienced regular pilots than the School or FBO. If you are willing to do that you can break even or even make a little cash to put back into your own flying fund. If you set it up like a business with an LLC owning the airplane, there are tax advantages as well.   

 

This is pretty much how my college flying club handled our M20F back in the 80s/90s and my checkout required 125 TT and 10 hours dual, including a cross-check with what we called a "senior Mooney CFI."  I was doing my IR at the time and used about 6-7 hours of my 10 for instrument work in the complex plane and that was very beneficial.  The remainder was doing typical checkout air work, landings, etc.  We also required at least one dual flight with 2 people in the backseat so ops at max gross were covered.  It served us very well until they did away with the senior Mooney CFI check and I think even lowered the time requirement to 5 hours after I left.  Someone destroyed it after botching a night landing after a very, very long day trip starting at dawn and returning around 2 or 3 AM with 4 people on board.  Fortunately none were killed, but they never replaced the Mooney either.  Obviously I'm strongly in favor of a rigorous checkout, with some preaching about how the plane might be really used on long trips so that a novice doesn't bite off more than they can chew.  The 100 hour pilot can be truly dangerous!

[benpilot]

Well I have close to 100 hours of flying time and probably will clock another 100 this year after my PPL. I ordered all those books recommended and will digest them and apply them to my flying to be a safe, competent pilot. At this point, I am looking at buying either a Mooney or Beechcraft. I like both planes for different reasons. More time in both should help me make the final decision. The guy selling his Rocket told me that the normal 252 controls are not as heavy and there are ways to make it lighter in trim so I've heard. Pedal extenders would help make the cabin more roomy for a short fat guy like me. For half the cost of a used Cirrus, either plane is great way to go with proper training. 

[KSMooniac]

I flew a Rocket for the first time last week and was quite surprised at how different it felt compared to my J (and the C/E/F models I previously flew).  It is a beast, and I think I would need several hours to get comfy in it despite 750+ hours of Mooney experience.  I would not pass judgment on all Mooneys based on one Rocket experience.  It was a delight to get back in my good ol' J model!

 

Pedal extensions will help immensely with panel/yoke/gut clearance and increase your perceived comfort level.  

[Tim Jodice]

Skynewbie,

I would suggest flying an ovation before scratching Mooney off you list, nothing against older Mooneys but I think Mooney made big improvements in comfort in the 90s on. If you don't need the power check out an MSE.

[benpilot]

Thanks I need to take a look at Ovations. What model is the MSE?

[Tim Jodice]

Thanks I need to take a look at Ovations. What model is the MSE?

Newer 201, If I remember correctly they start around 1994 they have most if not all of the speed mods factory installed. I have never been in one but I would bet the comfort would be great and if handling is your thing I bet a 201 would handle better then a rocket. IO-360/390 what's not to like?

[benpilot]

Ah yes, just checked, thats right they made the Mooney 201 up to about 1998 I believe. Still for that cost, a 252/Ovation looks good.

[Tim Jodice]

Ah yes, just checked, thats right they made the Mooney 201 up to about 1998 I believe. Still for that cost, a 252/Ovation looks good.

Where are you located? By all means if you mission demands a turbo then get one, think ahead $$$. when I was looking at Mooneys the 201 was hard to beat. NA lycomings as a rule don't need cylinders mid TBO turbo continentals do. Longer TBO and when it comes time to do an engine overhaul assuming factory rebuilt , Lycoming IO-360 $29665 continental TSIO-360 $48,243 (source: air power) not including install.

[carusoam]

MSE = Mooney Special Edition. They came with a complete array of upscale interior bits and nav/com equipment above the standard level...

The name applies to Js as well as Rs and probably others in the early 90’s.

Best regards,

-a-