Signature is evil

[Texas Mooney]

13 hours ago, PT20J said:

What I’m trying to understand, is how oversteering damage cannot be seen during a preflight. The leg stops should hit the stop on the truss and if the force breaks a stop off the leg, it can dent a tube on the leg and possibly a tube on the truss. (The leg tube is the smaller tube, so it usually takes the brunt of it). This can all be fairly easily inspected.

This is an excellent point.  As a part of preflight, I always run my hand against the back of the smaller leg tube after any time a third party moves my plane by the nose gear.  You can easily feel for paint chips due to contact, a dent or a bent tube without getting down on the ground. iPhones also make visual inspection easy now days.

I would argue that the OP was "negligent" for not fully inspecting his plane for obvious damage...but then I am just a lowly "piston folk" so what would I know.

[Shadrach]

13 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

I think the outcome in court would have been different had it been gross negligence.

https://legaldictionary.net/gross-negligence/

On a post here on April 12, 2019 he mentions, "It's unintentional internal damage . . ". How did it go from unintentional to gross negligence?

Others on here have had towing incidents that damaged the nose gear and they caught it on pre-flight . . .  before start-up and taxi. I doubt that they had x-ray vision. Was it the fault of the FBO? It sure seems like it. But going after them for a half million dollars on an $800,000 airplane, and turning down $235,000, makes me wonder who is trying to take advantage of whom.

I am always skeptical of “crusade” narratives in these types of matters. I think $235k is on the light side for from what I have read of the incident. However, lawsuits are practical matters. When one starts framing a disagreement on the damages from what was surely an accident as “the Righteous vs the Wicked”, practically has left the building.

[Texas Mooney]

A few pages back someone said "we can learn" from this.  So what did us lowly "piston folks" learn?

1. Adequately insure your plane in order to protect your investment from your own mistakes as well as the mistakes of others.
2. If a third party damages your plane, don't expect them to have insurance or resources.  If they do have insurance and resources that's great but don't expect it to immediately cover your costs.
3. If you have willingly contractually agreed to name the City or FBO as an "Additional Insured", agreed to hold the City/FBO harmless (either completely or only with the exception of "willful" or "gross" negligence, to indemnify the City/FBO, and to waive subrogation clauses, then don't ever expect the third party to pay anything.  And don't cook up some homespun version of what you think "gross negligence" legally should mean.
4. If you have more money than sense (and like to flaunt it) then waste time and resources in order to personally file a lawsuit against the third party years after the incident and long after it has been repaired by your insurance company.
5. Even if you win in court, don't expect to ever collect.
6. Expect your insurance to deal with the incident immediately, repair your plane and to try to recover costs from the responsible parties over the longer term.

Mooney N9391M, the M20F Executive, that was smashed by the falling gyrocopter at Oshkosh is a good example.  You can  have all the proof in the world, have investigation by NTSB, be fully in the right, win in court and still get nothing from the responsible parties.  It is your insurance that will fix or replace your plane.

Bent nose gear is harder to prove who was actually responsible.  If I overnight somewhere where they move my plane and upon departure preflight I feel a dent in the nose gear truss, how do I prove that actual FBO did it?  They may say "We didn't do that - you had the dent before landing.  You are just trying to stick us with the cost of someone else's mistake".  It becomes my word against theirs.

[GeeBee]

3 minutes ago, Texas Mooney said:

Even if you win in court, don't expect to ever collect.

So very true. It is very difficult to collect and on really big judgements, bankruptcy by the defendant is always in the cards which is why you should be temperate in your demands.

[Pinecone]

On 5/31/2024 at 9:50 PM, GeeBee said:

Insurance companies, like people are different. Some are ethical, some are not. Assume is spelled that way for a reason.

Ethics has nothing to do with it.

There job is to service their customers.  One way they do this it to try not to pay any claims from others.  But then to pay claims from their customers promptly.  And to collect for those claims from others if possible.

They are a BUSINESS.

[LANCECASPER]

3 hours ago, Schllc said:

I do know because I bought this one, and sold it, and bought one without damage history and sold that one. The one with damage history was 30% less to buy and sell. 
the one without damage history sold for what it was purchased new. 

I agree with you that just the impression of damage affects value somewhat - even though new engine, etc, etc, etc. 

When he put it up for sale April 6, 2020 there was a lot of uncertainty that had nothing to do with his airplane. Airplanes, cars etc weren't selling. We were a month into covid. That was the worst time to sell an airplane or almost anything. Starting less than a year later and continuing for at least a couple years were isome of the best times to sell an airplane.

I still don't buy that 30% value loss is all attributed to the incident and brand new parts being swapped at the factory for the damaged ones - some value for sure, but not all of it. Jimmy Garrison will tell you that when brand new parts are swapped and you're not re-skinning anything, you might take a ten percent hit. But in this case, let's say fifteen. By the time he flew it away from the factory, before the damage, real value in 2019 was probably around 700,000-750,000. These things weren't flying off the shelves back then.

At the high end of 15% that would be  a 112,500 hit, not even close to what he was asking. Covid market uncertainty played just as big of a part of it in April 2020 when he put it up for sale. It was great timing for you though . Good job in buying low - I should have jumped on it.

[jetdriven]

For all of you saying to adequately insure your plane, we could not insure  our plane for what we could sell it for tomorrow. They refuse to insure it for more than about 190k but seeing what planes sell for it would bring a lot more. So you’re underinsured  because they refused to write a policy big enough.

[Schllc]

5 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

I agree with you that just the impression of damage affects value somewhat - even though new engine, etc, etc, etc. 

At the high end of 15% that would be  a 112,500 hit, not even close to what he was asking. Covid market uncertainty played just as big of a part of it in April 2020 when he put it up for sale. It was great timing for you though . Good job in buying low - I should have jumped on it.

There may be examples where damage history only causes a 10% ding, perhaps with a 50 year old plane that had a gear up 40 years ago, this isn’t likely to have that large an impact, but on a newer plane, this just isn’t the case. 
There is also another factor that is more difficult to quantify but is no less very real.  
That factor is that out of any given 10 buyers at least half of them walk the other way when they find out there is any damage history at all, the rest expect a healthy discount.
For those that don’t want any damage history it isn’t about a discount, they just don’t want the plane. This dramatic reduction in potential buyers means it takes longer to sell, which equals money.   
Like I said, I don’t know if 500k was the right number, but even 10% is not rational for depreciation due to damage history on a brand new plane. 
I also disagree with this not being gross negligence with regard to the towing. 
The primary function of the FBO is to handle airplanes, and failure to adhere to the requirements for properly handling of the plane is the definition of gross negligence. If it was intentional that would be worse,  but it doesn’t have to be intentional to be gross negligence.  Intentional negligence is an oxymoron. 

I have more of an issue with Signature in this instance than the insurance company.
 

[LANCECASPER]

2 hours ago, Schllc said:

 
Like I said, I don’t know if 500k was the right number, but even 10% is not rational for depreciation due to damage history on a brand new plane. 
 

I used 15% in my example of $112,500. 

First, this is not a typical "damage history" airplane. Most airplanes that disclose damage history have sheet metal replaced, wings reskinned, belly pans and antennas replaced, a lot of paint work, etc, etc, etc. He put a brand new engine on instead of a tear down on a 30 hour engine. The prop was replaced with brand new. The nose gear is brand new. It never was clear whether the nose gear doors were damaged - in the first post in 2019 it said they weren't, but in the end they may have been.

If any $800,000 airplane with no damage was on the market a year later with 150+ hours, the market would have said this is, at most a $675,000 airplane.

Since it was placed on the market the month after Covid hit, take another $50,000 - $75,000 off, since everything was at a standstill. Now we're at a market price of $600,000 - $625,000. This is assuming no damage history.

Then figure out whatever you bought it for - the rest was damage history. 

It appears that he's trying to say that everything between what he bought it for and sold it for was loss of value due to the damage. Not a chance. (1)Part of that difference is "driving it off the showroom floor" depreciation. (2) part of it is 150+ hours of use on the airplane (3) part of it is trying to sell it in April 2020 and (4) yes, part of it is loss of value due to damage history.

While it's true, airplanes with a story stay on the market longer, they also attract the people looking for a deal (you and me). On the above numbers ($600,000 - $625,000), if I got another 10-15% off vs. one that didn't get a new engine, prop, nose gear, I would have been all over it. I still have a lot to learn, and I'm learning every day, but on the fourteen airplanes I've owned, seven of which have been Mooneys, I've learned a few things about the market and how buying and selling works.

This isn't just my opinion. The court must have decided that what he was asking was not warranted and that it wasn't gross negligence. We love airplanes and get emotional when an airplane gets damaged, especially if we own it. To the court it's a piece of metal that got bent unintentionally, something that can be replaced, very similar to every other civil lawsuit they deal with. If gross negligence was a common outcome of cases like this, that angle would be used in many auto accidents since people are doing stupid things when they are driving. While we as airplane owners may see it that way when a towing limit is exceeded, the courts don't.

One thing I know for sure, the courts deal with these issues every day and I'm glad I don't. But they know a lot more about theses issues than I do.

[toto]

23 hours ago, PT20J said:

What I’m trying to understand, is how oversteering damage cannot be seen during a preflight. The leg stops should hit the stop on the truss and if the force breaks a stop off the leg, it can dent a tube on the leg and possibly a tube on the truss. (The leg tube is the smaller tube, so it usually takes the brunt of it). This can all be fairly easily inspected.

If there is a lesson to learn here, this is the lesson I want to learn. 

When I do a preflight, every preflight, I lie on my back on the ground under each main gear well and directly behind the nose gear well. I look very carefully for anything unusual, and I’m looking at every inch of the nose gear truss for any dents or missing paint. I assume that most of us do something similar.

I’m not sure how this particular damage avoided discovery during preflight, but I’d like to understand how it was hard to see or how it might have been invisible to a pilot getting ready to turn the key - so I can try to catch something similar in the future. If there are photos of this or other incidents where someone knowledgeable can point out the areas of hidden damage, I’d like to learn. 

[Texas Mooney]

8 minutes ago, toto said:

If there is a lesson to learn here, this is the lesson I want to learn. 

When I do a preflight, every preflight, I lie on my back on the ground under each main gear well and directly behind the nose gear well. I look very carefully for anything unusual, and I’m looking at every inch of the nose gear truss for any dents or missing paint. I assume that most of us do something similar.

I’m not sure how this particular damage avoided discovery during preflight, but I’d like to understand how it was hard to see or how it might have been invisible to a pilot getting ready to turn the key - so I can try to catch something similar in the future. If there are photos of this or other incidents where someone knowledgeable can point out the areas of hidden damage, I’d like to learn. 

You don't need to lay on the ground.  Just reach under and run your fingers along the the back of the small tubes on the back of the nose gear truss - IF it was turned beyond limits, that is what contacts and either dents or bends.  Us your iPhone reverse camera like a mirror and pan under the cowl and nose gear.  You are making this harder than it is.

[Texas Mooney]

19 minutes ago, toto said:

If there are photos of this or other incidents where someone knowledgeable can point out the areas of hidden damage, I’d like to learn. 

They are in the links above on this page from 2015 and 2018 if your are reading the comments....

Edited June 3, 2024 by Texas Mooney

[Texas Mooney]

One more time

[PT20J]

On 6/1/2024 at 6:44 AM, OHAEDO said:

Kevin Kammer told me - there’s no way one sees that damage during pre-flight (eg it’s sheared from the top)

This is what @OHAEDO posted. I don't understand what broke or how something on the nose gear can get damaged by over steering in a way that can't be seen during preflight. I am NOT saying it can't -- I'm saying I don't understand how it can and I would like to learn. 

[LANCECASPER]

Just now, PT20J said:

This is what @OHAEDO posted. I don't understand what broke or how something on the nose gear can get damaged by over steering in a way that can't be seen during preflight. I am NOT saying it can't -- I'm saying I don't understand how it can and I would like to learn. 

I think that was Kevin's nice way to make a brand new Mooney owner feel better.

[wombat]

Way off topic, but whatever...  How about this as an idea to make it easier to spot the damage of a crushed nose gear strut tube?

You drill and tap a small hole in the tube, reinforcing the area around it with another layer of steel to make up for the reduction in strength of the hole.   Then you fill the tube completely full with a brightly colored dye.  Make sure there is no air in it by applying a vacuum first.   Then you insert a small pressure relief valve (Link to an example below) so if the tube is crushed at all, it will expel a significant quantity of the dye.

I expect the net weight gain to be about 1 pound, which is unfortunately well forward of the CG.

Install costs will be about $2,500 per aircraft ($50 each for the valves, $100 for the dye, and 20 hours at $110/hr to remove the nose strut assembly, drill, tap, fill, and then re-install, plus $100 for the STC paperwork)

And to get my STC approved, it'll be...   Let's see...    destructive testing on 25 strut assemblies, at $500 each to purchase ($5,000), plus 10 hours of engineer time each at $250/hr ($62,500), plus 2 lawyers 25% time for 3 years at $450/hr, ($1,500,000) so I'll need to sell....16,7500 of these, plus 65 per month to cover the cost of the loan for this while I'm getting it paid off.

 

 

https://www.central-lubrication.com/Bijur-Delimon-19139-Pressure-relief-valve-31-bar-for-SureFire?gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQjwsPCyBhD4ARIsAPaaRf3w4XIYqUJQUKM7uE_JXWfMr40NjHlmJ37PO-rq97LGdpv1S82CvT0aAov0EALw_wcB

[PT20J]

15 minutes ago, wombat said:

Way off topic, but whatever...  How about this as an idea to make it easier to spot the damage of a crushed nose gear strut tube?

You drill and tap a small hole in the tube, reinforcing the area around it with another layer of steel to make up for the reduction in strength of the hole.   Then you fill the tube completely full with a brightly colored dye.  Make sure there is no air in it by applying a vacuum first.   Then you insert a small pressure relief valve (Link to an example below) so if the tube is crushed at all, it will expel a significant quantity of the dye.

I expect the net weight gain to be about 1 pound, which is unfortunately well forward of the CG.

Install costs will be about $2,500 per aircraft ($50 each for the valves, $100 for the dye, and 20 hours at $110/hr to remove the nose strut assembly, drill, tap, fill, and then re-install, plus $100 for the STC paperwork)

And to get my STC approved, it'll be...   Let's see...    destructive testing on 25 strut assemblies, at $500 each to purchase ($5,000), plus 10 hours of engineer time each at $250/hr ($62,500), plus 2 lawyers 25% time for 3 years at $450/hr, ($1,500,000) so I'll need to sell....16,7500 of these, plus 65 per month to cover the cost of the loan for this while I'm getting it paid off.

 

 

https://www.central-lubrication.com/Bijur-Delimon-19139-Pressure-relief-valve-31-bar-for-SureFire?gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQjwsPCyBhD4ARIsAPaaRf3w4XIYqUJQUKM7uE_JXWfMr40NjHlmJ37PO-rq97LGdpv1S82CvT0aAov0EALw_wcB

Mooney liked to complicate things on later models, so I would expect that if the factory designed it there would be a fluid level sensor and a warning light in the annunciator panel.

[MikeOH]

26 minutes ago, wombat said:

Way off topic, but whatever...  How about this as an idea to make it easier to spot the damage of a crushed nose gear strut tube?

You drill and tap a small hole in the tube, reinforcing the area around it with another layer of steel to make up for the reduction in strength of the hole.   Then you fill the tube completely full with a brightly colored dye.  Make sure there is no air in it by applying a vacuum first.   Then you insert a small pressure relief valve (Link to an example below) so if the tube is crushed at all, it will expel a significant quantity of the dye.

I expect the net weight gain to be about 1 pound, which is unfortunately well forward of the CG.

Install costs will be about $2,500 per aircraft ($50 each for the valves, $100 for the dye, and 20 hours at $110/hr to remove the nose strut assembly, drill, tap, fill, and then re-install, plus $100 for the STC paperwork)

And to get my STC approved, it'll be...   Let's see...    destructive testing on 25 strut assemblies, at $500 each to purchase ($5,000), plus 10 hours of engineer time each at $250/hr ($62,500), plus 2 lawyers 25% time for 3 years at $450/hr, ($1,500,000) so I'll need to sell....16,7500 of these, plus 65 per month to cover the cost of the loan for this while I'm getting it paid off.

 

 

https://www.central-lubrication.com/Bijur-Delimon-19139-Pressure-relief-valve-31-bar-for-SureFire?gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQjwsPCyBhD4ARIsAPaaRf3w4XIYqUJQUKM7uE_JXWfMr40NjHlmJ37PO-rq97LGdpv1S82CvT0aAov0EALw_wcB

Or, you could tape a ketchup packet to the backside of the tube...

[toto]

2 hours ago, Texas Mooney said:

You are making this harder than it is.

Getting on the ground and inspecting the gear carefully is an important part of my preflight routine, and I think there is value in it.  I'm not saying that it's the only (or even the best) way of identifying damage to the truss, but my intent is to be very familiar with what's normal, so I can easily identify when something is abnormal.

[hubcap]

When I am traveling I ALWAYS check the gear during preflight with my finger to see if the tube is crushed.

[PT20J]

1 minute ago, hubcap said:

When I am traveling I ALWAYS check the gear during preflight with my finger to see if the tube is crushed.

As I learned, if the gear leg has the stops, it's possible to break a stop clean off without denting a tube (or in my case, denting it so slightly that it wasn't easily felt.) If the steering is set up correctly, the first thing to limit travel is the rudder stops in the tail, followed by the steering stops on the nosewheel if you have them. At this point, there is still a gap of maybe 3/8" (I haven't measured it) between the leg tube (the weaker one that gets damaged) and the truss tube (the larger one that damages the leg). So, it's best to check out the stops if you have them. It's not too hard to kneel down and see them, or use a phone camera to photograph them. I also carry an inspection mirror that makes it easy to inspect such things and I carry a rubber knee pad like the kind gardeners use which also makes it easier to sump the tanks without grinding my knees on the tarmac.

[OHAEDO]

On 6/1/2024 at 9:16 PM, LANCECASPER said:

Were you going to teach us in the lowly piston world how to do crosswind landings in a HondaJet?
https://aviation-safety.net/asndb/318693

Actually I think we can all learn from that, so I embrace my weakness and happy to share.

 

Perhaps you can come up later and share some empathy.  If there is some in there.

[OHAEDO]

On 6/2/2024 at 10:38 AM, Texas Mooney said:

This is an excellent point.  As a part of preflight, I always run my hand against the back of the smaller leg tube after any time a third party moves my plane by the nose gear.  You can easily feel for paint chips due to contact, a dent or a bent tube without getting down on the ground. iPhones also make visual inspection easy now days.

I would argue that the OP was "negligent" for not fully inspecting his plane for obvious damage...but then I am just a lowly "piston folk" so what would I know.

Don't mean it that way - it's just that it did NOT show on the stops.  Crazy, I know.  Just sheared at the top.

The lowly piston comment was out of frustration, and I apologize, but people are mean and rude into semantics and go off topic.  Please accept my apologies, said in anger over my angst and folks with ZERO knowledge trying to look intelligent (they're not).

Edited June 5, 2024 by OHAEDO

[Texas Mooney]

33 minutes ago, OHAEDO said:

Don't mean it that way - it's just that it did NOT show on the stops.  Crazy, I know.  Just sheared at the top.

The lowly piston comment was out of frustration, and I apologize, but people are mean and rude into semantics and go off topic.  Please accept my apologies, said in anger over my angst and folks with ZERO knowledge trying to look intelligent (they're not).

Over turning the Mooney nose gear happens. Decades ago, when I went to look at a 20 year old Mooney being sold by a 4 owner partnership, the first thing I did was rub my hand along the back of the nose gear truss. I felt a dent. I mentioned it to the partner who was showing me the plane.

He blew up and said “We just had that nose gear truss repaired because someone turned the nose gear too far when moving the plane. It just came back from the A&P on the field. Someone did it again!”
 

I bought the plane after they fixed the nose gear - for a second time in 2 months. 

[201Steve]

So what’s the short version? Did we win in court or not? 
 

way too much to read!