New Pilot Looking for Recommendations

[JCKroeger6251]

Hello, and thanks for looking!  I'm a new pilot looking to purchase my first plane.  With that being said and not yet having flown in a Mooney(yet, but will before buying) I love the look and speed of the Mooney but would also like to get something economical.  I live in Wyoming(KCPR) and my business will take me to almost every part of the state with most trips being 100-175 mile trips.  We will be traveling occasionally on some longer flights to Texas, Kansas, Arizona and Nevada up to 900 mile long trips to visit family, friends and to get away.  I was wondering what everyones recommendations would be on which Mooney I should be looking at that is both fast and economical?  What do the annuals cost, what's everyone get for an hourly cost etc etc?  Any info would be greatly appreciated!!!

I was also wondering where a reputable A&P might be close?  I will obviously be check the local area first but I've always found experience is the best way to tell a good, honest and experienced mechanic etc.  What are some areas to keep an eye out on? ie Areas of certain models that have corrosion in specific spots etc etc.?

Although I'm not IFR certified at the moment I will be getting that and was wondering everyones thoughts on getting TKS/FIKI?  I don't need to fly if weather is bad but like the idea of having it "just in case."  Good/Bad worth the extra money etc etc?

Also I have read up on Mooney history and know a few guys that had Mooneys but sold them due to their inability to find required parts.  I know a Chinese company has purchased the company and at least said they were focusing on building a stockpile of parts before embarking on building lots of new planes.  What are your experiences with finding parts and are they reasonable(in aviation terms) priced?

I do have a family and will occasionally be bringing the kids with my wife and I so with that said are the back seats usable?  Most of my missions will be with my wife and I but will have a teenager and on even rarer occasions will be traveling with both of my teenagers.  I have a friend who said his Mooney back seats were not usable by anyone but a very young child with short legs LOL.  They will be ok if they're a little cramped for an hour or so but would like them to be relatively comfortable.

How are the planes to fly?  Is it something that takes a lot of time to learn to fly or are they relatively easy?  How would they be with a full load?

I have been told the Mooney family is the best in aviation and that Mooney has an extremely loyal following which I love the idea of so I can bounce ideas off others.

Thank You for you taking the time and appreciate any info anyone would be willing to share with me and if you're in the KCPR area and wouldn't mind showing me your plane I'd jump at the opportunity!

Thanks

[glbtrottr]

Mooneys are great.

I think we are going to find some confusion in your mission given that you asked for economical, which is an easy answer, versus TKS / FIKI which I think is decidedly not economical

I think you may help yourself by understanding a little history on the models:

Short body
Mid body
Long body

On the older short body mooneys, 180HP or 200HP, carbureted vs fuel injected.

On the mod sized bodies, you have planes like the G model , but mooney experienced their greates success with the J model - a fuel injected 4 cylinder mid body that was the pinnacle of efficiency and speed. The K model is the same airframe with a 6 cylinder turbocharged continental.

Recently I saw a B model mooney in really nice condition although it hadn’t flown in a while for $27k.

An Acclaim Ultra on trade a plane will set you back $850k, and an ovation is on sale with known ice for $799k.

J and K models range ln average between 125-250k my guess, whereas short body “vintage” (pre J and K) mooneys are usually below the $100k mark, on average 75-100 on Barnstormers. Again, that’s my observation.

Short body mooneys are usually 52-54 gallons, with plenty of threads on performance and range; my K model has extended range tanks, giving me 104 gallons. Long legs….flying it lean of peak makes for some very long flights if your bladder can stand it ….

Annuals? They run the gamut. I keep hearing people Pat between $2-3k for a straight annual; my m20E just ran $1200, my K modem from a mooney specific mechanic was $1700-i could pay less for someone not as anal retentive, and could pay substantially more if I took it to a Mooney Service Center or a more pricey mooney specific shop…

Hope that helps

[rickseeman]

Welcome. You will get a lot of help here. M20C, D, and F are the cheapest, since you have a family. Later models give you a little more room, more speed and more range. But as you suspect, they are more expensive. Some lenders might stretch out the payments to make them reasonable. I've seen decent Mooneys out there for a little over $50,000. Everyone on this site has been in your shoes, is now reading your post, and is thinking about when they were in your shoes a long time ago, and are smiling. It's been a long journey. And a lot of wonderful trips. And a lot of fun. There will be lots of data for you to digest but learning is fun. I've been doing this 40 years and studied all day today.

[Ragsf15e]

Budget will help us help you… I have an F in Spokane and it works great for my family of 4 (2 young kids).  It’s not great in the winter because it doesn’t have tks.  If you need to fly through clouds in the winter up north, you’ll want/need tks.  They are all pretty efficient, however the older ones have really simple maintenance as long as they have been hangared and taken care of.  Possibly they cost less per year.  My F is probably worth close to $100k and costs about $15-20k/ year all in for 100 hours.  Insurance will cost you more as a new pilot.

[0TreeLemur]

I lived in Wyoming  (KLAR) for 12 years then escaped to a warmer, lower, less windy place.  Here near sea level a Mooney C model is a great traveling machine for two or occasionally three people.   The C or E models (short bodies) don't really have useable back seats for two grownups.  Flew our Mooney back with my wife several times to visit kids after moving away.  

For those of you unfamiliar with the Cowboy State, 2/3 of it lies at or above 7,000 ft.  Yes, that's ground elevation in most of the state. The low point is just below 4000 ft.  Standard atmospheric temperature at 7,000 ft is 32F.  Density altitude numbers are ridiculous on an 85F day.  In the winter the wind often RIPS.  Winds of 30G50 occur frequently.  KCPR is one of the gustiest airfields in the country.

Some things to consider.

In my opinion, a four cylinder Mooney is under-powered for Wyoming.  In the summer when the density altitude is 9,000, or 10,000 ft it takes over 3000 ft of runway to get off the ground, and then it climbs like a dog.  There is usually a mountain range to climb over.  Four cylinder Mooney's are just not fantastic climbing machines at high altitudes.

If I'm going to land in gusty wintertime conditions, I want plenty of power go around when the gusts point a wing towards the ground at 100 ft.  Something with six cylinders and a three bladed prop, please.  Icing was already mentioned, but with winter lasting 8 to 9 months in Wyoming, it is a frequent concern.

One of the several reasons I moved away from Wyoming was because it is a really tough place to fly reliably.

A Mooney with a six cylinder engine and a turbo would be better, but cabin access is still a bit tight.  Maybe consider a 182? 

Good luck.  Sorry to emphasize the negative, but there are quite a few negatives against piston aviation in the land of Brown and Gold.

OTOH we used to fly the Governors Citation around the state quite easily and reliably...

[carusoam]

Great questions for a new guy…. 

Tough answers…

1) As a new pilot, it is a real challenge to determine how you will use the plane a few years down the line…

2) When it comes to airplanes… it is pretty easy to get too much plane without the experience that is desired…

3) Consider getting a Mooney in good condition… then as you figure out how useable it is… step up to the 310hp FIkI Acclaim!

Don’t rush the process, unless you have nothing else in your life as a priority….  

About me… I started with the M20C, and a young family… moved up to the M20R with full grown kids in the back…

Good luck on the IR!

Best regards,

-a-

[GeeBee]

For what you outline a turbo is a must.  That leaves you with a K, M or T model. If you want FIKI that now puts you in the M or T model. With FIKI you're not going very far carrying two passengers in the back seat unless you empty the TKS tank. (55 pounds). With FIKI a Mooney is a great two place airplane, 3 place if they are small or in a pinch. TKS works, it works really good, it is however limited in time, 2:30 on normal mode, 1:15 in "holy sheet the ice is bad" mode. You should always have an escape plan with FIKI because things can break. 

Parts are not a huge problem. Heck if they can still keep Commander 114 flying, the Mooney is a piece of cake. You ask if parts can be obtained reasonably? It's aviation, nothing and nobody is reasonable.

If you want a true 4 place FIKI single you need to look at an A36, P210, T210 and be prepared to buy more fuel. If your missions are mostly you and your wife, the Mooney is a great and economical airplane that is very fast. 

Check insurance first.

[Pinecone]

The ultimate in efficiency with load capacity is a 252 converted to Encore specs.  You can get a useful load in the 1100 pound range.   I see about 174 KTAS in the mid teens running about 10 GPH.  The big engined Mooneys are a bit faster, but burn a good bit more fuel

But if you want FIKI, that will go down a bit.  Plus, there are very few 252/Encore with it installed, and installing it on an airplane without it is around $75,000.

The mid body gives you more room in the back seat and slightly larger baggage compartment.  IRRC, all the extra length in the long bodies is in the baggage compartment.

[LANCECASPER]

On 2/1/2023 at 6:47 AM, GeeBee said:

For what you outline a turbo is a must.  That leaves you with a K, M or T model. If you want FIKI that now puts you in the M or T model. With FIKI you're not going very far carrying two passengers in the back seat unless you empty the TKS tank. (55 pounds). With FIKI a Mooney is a great two place airplane, 3 place if they are small or in a pinch. TKS works, it works really good, it is however limited in time, 2:30 on normal mode, 1:15 in "holy sheet the ice is bad" mode. You should always have an escape plan with FIKI because things can break. 

Parts are not a huge problem. Heck if they can still keep Commander 114 flying, the Mooney is a piece of cake. You ask if parts can be obtained reasonably? It's aviation, nothing and nobody is reasonable.

If you want a true 4 place FIKI single you need to look at an A36, P210, T210 and be prepared to buy more fuel. If your missions are mostly you and your wife, the Mooney is a great and economical airplane that is very fast. 

Check insurance first.

Mooney only made one M20T - that's a Predator. It belongs to Tom Bowen*

https://www.aviationconsumer.com/uncategorized/mooney-predator/

I think you're referring to an M20TN (Acclaim). 

 

* EDIT: It actually belongs to Don Maxwell (https://registry.faa.gov/AircraftInquiry/Search/NNumberResult?nNumberTxt=20XT)

[LANCECASPER]

11 hours ago, JCKroeger6251 said:

Hello, and thanks for looking!  I'm a new pilot looking to purchase my first plane.  With that being said and not yet having flown in a Mooney(yet, but will before buying) I love the look and speed of the Mooney but would also like to get something economical.  I live in Wyoming(KCPR) and my business will take me to almost every part of the state with most trips being 100-175 mile trips.  We will be traveling occasionally on some longer flights to Texas, Kansas, Arizona and Nevada up to 900 mile long trips to visit family, friends and to get away.  I was wondering what everyones recommendations would be on which Mooney I should be looking at that is both fast and economical?  What do the annuals cost, what's everyone get for an hourly cost etc etc?  Any info would be greatly appreciated!!!

I was also wondering where a reputable A&P might be close?  I will obviously be check the local area first but I've always found experience is the best way to tell a good, honest and experienced mechanic etc.  What are some areas to keep an eye out on? ie Areas of certain models that have corrosion in specific spots etc etc.?

Although I'm not IFR certified at the moment I will be getting that and was wondering everyones thoughts on getting TKS/FIKI?  I don't need to fly if weather is bad but like the idea of having it "just in case."  Good/Bad worth the extra money etc etc?

Also I have read up on Mooney history and know a few guys that had Mooneys but sold them due to their inability to find required parts.  I know a Chinese company has purchased the company and at least said they were focusing on building a stockpile of parts before embarking on building lots of new planes.  What are your experiences with finding parts and are they reasonable(in aviation terms) priced?

I do have a family and will occasionally be bringing the kids with my wife and I so with that said are the back seats usable?  Most of my missions will be with my wife and I but will have a teenager and on even rarer occasions will be traveling with both of my teenagers.  I have a friend who said his Mooney back seats were not usable by anyone but a very young child with short legs LOL.  They will be ok if they're a little cramped for an hour or so but would like them to be relatively comfortable.

How are the planes to fly?  Is it something that takes a lot of time to learn to fly or are they relatively easy?  How would they be with a full load?

I have been told the Mooney family is the best in aviation and that Mooney has an extremely loyal following which I love the idea of so I can bounce ideas off others.

Thank You for you taking the time and appreciate any info anyone would be willing to share with me and if you're in the KCPR area and wouldn't mind showing me your plane I'd jump at the opportunity!

Thanks

If you're in Wyoming you want Kerry McIntyre (knr-inc.com) to work on your Mooney.

https://www.knr-inc.com/shop-talk-articles.html

[Mufflerbearing]

As usual, there are many excellent comments here.  I'll ad some as well.  Although I think the best airplane is the Screaming Eagle with FIKI, and of course I am biased as I love mine, getting a turbo is probably the best choice for you.  I have FIKI and use it a lot.  Actually used it to my trip to Scottsdale AZ from CDA Idaho and the return flight on Monday.  It is one of the several main reasons I bought my plane and my wife loves the peace of mind it gives her when she is flying with me or not. 

[Fly Boomer]

4 hours ago, Pinecone said:

But if you want FIKI, that will go down a bit.  Plus, there are very few 252/Encore with it installed, and installing it on an airplane without it is around $75,000.

I know that everyone who doesn't have some feature says "you don't need it", but I'm going to say exactly that about FIKI.  My M20K has non-FIKI TKS, and that's all I need.  My ice plan is "up, down, or turn around", not "keep driving into the ice".  My understanding is that the main difference is dual pumps, but there could be more to it.  My fluid tank holds six gallons usable and, as you point out, on the low setting that's enough for 2.5 hours.

[Fly Boomer]

3 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

Mooney only made one M20T - that's a Predator. It belongs to Tom Bowen 

https://www.aviationconsumer.com/uncategorized/mooney-predator/

I think you're referring to an M20TN (Acclaim). 

I thought Maxwell had it now.  Maybe they are just working on it.  I know Maxwell took the tail off to transport it to Longview on a truck.

[802flyer]

50 minutes ago, Fly Boomer said:

I know that everyone who doesn't have some feature says "you don't need it", but I'm going to say exactly that about FIKI.  My M20K has non-FIKI TKS, and that's all I need.  My ice plan is "up, down, or turn around", not "keep driving into the ice".  My understanding is that the main difference is dual pumps, but there could be more to it.  My fluid tank holds six gallons usable and, as you point out, on the low setting that's enough for 2.5 hours.

Agree with you almost completely, until one reaches the nuances of what constitutes "known" icing. This time of year my airport often has a low broken layer a thousand feet thick, and those clouds have ice in them more often than not. My friends with FIKI planes will happily pop through the layer without a second thought, and so they get to go flying a lot more than me. I'd love for my next plane to have TKS, but I'd have a hard time arguing with a straight face that the ice I'd encounter routinely departing through those clouds is "inadvertent," even if there isn't a pirep telling me definitively. So in that use case, the certified system has value and is what I'll be looking for when I eventually upgrade.

[LANCECASPER]

On 2/1/2023 at 12:11 PM, Fly Boomer said:

I thought Maxwell had it now.  Maybe they are just working on it.  I know Maxwell took the tail off to transport it to Longview on a truck.

You could be right - Tom flew it to MoneyMax in June I think.

EDIT: It does belong to Don Maxwell (https://registry.faa.gov/AircraftInquiry/Search/NNumberResult?nNumberTxt=20XT)

[Fly Boomer]

13 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

You could be right - Tom flew it to MoneyMax in June I think.

In that case, I guess they were just working on it.

[LANCECASPER]

1 minute ago, Fly Boomer said:

In that case, I guess they were just working on it.

They both have a lot of history with the airplane - it wouldn't surprise me if Maxwell was the actual owner.

[haymak3r]

Like was already said.. We've all been where you are now. I was just a year ago. After sitting in an M20C, and really researching what I wanted. I fell in to an m20J. I finished my PPL in it, and am getting my instrument rating in it right now. I think a mid body is what you're after. I have a family of 4, with one lengthy teenager, and a slightly shorter almost teenager. They fit just fine in the back seat, and as a family I don't think I could really have gotten anything better. We can load up, and as long as we don't bring the kitchen sink, we can still fill the tanks up. (BARELY) if my waist grows anymore, then that may start changing hahaha...

 

For your mission in the mountains though, a K model may be the best choice. OH, insurance was mentioned. As a student, holy crap it was expensive.. as a low time pilot, it's still not great, but half of what it was. There weren't that many insurers out there for us, so most likely you'll be looking at around 3-5k just for insurance every year. My first annual was 2400, with me helping. But we knew there were some things that were uhh neglected that were not airworthy items, but things I wanted fixed/cleaned/etc.

 

Hopefully this helps a little. Good Luck!!! And welcome to the group if you stick around!!!!!!

 

-Chris