Which should I buy?

[Wildhorsetrail]

I've been "shopping" for a mooney for about 2 months now. I had decided a J model, but have come across a couple late model F's. What would be your preference all other things being more or less equal; a late model F with a nice IFR gps panel, or $10 to $15k more for a 1979 or 1980 J model that needs some panel updating to get IFR gps capability?

 

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[LANCECASPER]

You'd have to compare everything on both to really make that call. In 40 years panels come and go. You can completely re-do a panel, or paint or interior, or engine, etc but the airframe is the permanent part. 

[Wildhorsetrail]

I know the J has a speed advantage. Does the F cowling cause any cooling issues I should consider?

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[201er]

J.

[M20F-1968]

Some F's are essentially J's, with the manual gear upgrade.  How much nicer is the F panel?  What gear does it have?  Are there any J upgrades?

Then you have to look into the specifics of the airframe, tanks, etc... and what it will cost to make it into what you want.  

You will be spending something....plan ahead and know how you want the airplane to look when you are done.

John Breda

[Ragsf15e]

33 minutes ago, Wildhorsetrail said:

I know the J has a speed advantage. Does the F cowling cause any cooling issues I should consider?

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I have an F and they are nice.  If I found 2 comparable airplanes, one an F and the other a J, I’d want the J if possible.  If the price isn’t right or the J isn’t in good condition, the F will do you good.

The F cools just fine.  It’s about 10 kts slower.  Everything else is almost exactly the same.  The J will obviously be a few years newer.

[Wildhorsetrail]

The panel is such that I would be satisfied with it as is for 5 years at least. There are no other major upgrades. A little research says the engine overhaul is actually cheaper on the earlier engine, but I question that. In most of the Js I'm seeing there would be a 10 to 15k higher price, plus I would not be happy without some panel upgrades that would quickly add another 15 probably. The F would be 10 knots slower most likely.

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[Wildhorsetrail]

I guess my question boils down to: is the F model basically an early J model that's 10kts slower?

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[carusoam]

All Mooneys are good…

They got better every year…

There are no bad Mooneys…

 

The Mooney that fits your mission is the best one for you…

 

If you don’t detail who you are, what your experience is, and how you are going to use your plane, and how long you are going to own it…

How is anyone going to be able to help you decide?

Kind of like having a suit fitting…

I’d go M20R and Brioni…. 
 

But, for you…. Can I recommend the most modern Mooney that fits your budget….that has a panel to meet your needs?

One with an interior and paint that doesn’t scare your family…?

Best regards,

 

-a-

 

[Wildhorsetrail]

The mission is twice a month 200nm trips for business, with occasional multi state trips for pleasure. I've got 450 hours, almost exclusively in C172, with a little C182 and Commanche time. I'll be flying in the mountains of Idaho, Washington, and Montana. Realistically I probably won't keep the airplane past 10 years

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[EricJ]

38 minutes ago, Wildhorsetrail said:

I guess my question boils down to: is the F model basically an early J model that's 10kts slower?

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There are some differences that can be important, especially if you do your own wrenching.   Removing the cowl on a J is pretty trivial, while it is much more involved on a J to fully remove everything.   Similarly access to behind the panel differs significantly between the two.   In the bigger picture they're very similar airplanes, but if it were me I'd go for a J and then load the panel up the way you want it.   You'll have a better airplane, imho.

 

[carusoam]

10 years is long enough to call it a forever plane….

You get to replace some things twice over that amount of time… 

Or paint it…

Or update it’s interior…

Or add a bunch of new radios….

Or… maybe you are still finding out which Mooney is best to fit your mission… or if GA fits your family…

Start with a cost effective one, that will sell easily…. After a decade wizzes by… Go Ovation!

 

There are some really nice M20F forever planes around here…. One with a turbo and an ovation interior…

There are some new looking M20Js as well…. That get used for daily transportation… one was going out to Martha’s Vineyard…

 

Then there are the budget planes… The M20C is perfect for that….  They have been turned into forever planes as well…. Or sold off to get the next available turbo Mooney…. A 252 or a Rocket….

Planning the future is challenging…. Expect to adjust a few things along the way….

 

Did you get your IR already?

Best regards,

-a-

[Tx_Aggie]

I was in your exact spot 2 years ago. The reality is if you save money now on an F, it won’t be long before you wished you pulled the trigger on a J. I flew a friends f for about a year before buying my J and it is definitely 15 knots faster at altitude - which is incredible considering it’s virtually the same engine. Besides that, in 5-10 years when you decide to move on, it’ll be far easier to sell the J than the F. My $0.02. 

[carusoam]

For the differences between the F and the J….

Read up on Lopresti…. The Man….

Mr. Lopresti brought modern aerodynamics to Mooney to help reduce drag…..

His project was designing the M20J….

The cool thing he did….   Was leave the door open for M20F owners to upgrade their F with J parts….

You might see planes advertised as M20F/Js…. Born an F and upgraded….

Similar planes are M20D/Cs….  Or Screamin’ Eagles…. Kind of an M20S/R…. 

Best regards,

-a-

[ArtVandelay]

For the differences between the F and the J….
Read up on Lopresti…. The Man….
Mr. Lopresti brought modern aerodynamics to Mooney to help reduce drag…..
His project was designing the M20J….
The cool thing he did….   Was leave the door open for M20F owners to upgrade their F with J parts….
You might see planes advertised as M20F/Js…. Born an F and upgraded….

There’s more to a J vs F than just aerodynamics improvements.

As mentioned above cowling and belly panel changes make removal a 5 minute exercise.
The Js engine intake was vastly improved to the point the ram air became superfluous and was eventually removed.
Muffler was improved.
Stylistic changes like wing tips, fairings were added.
Later years got the max gross weight increased. Needed because above and fully articulated seats added to the empty weight.
Etc etc.
77 was a transition year, they still have the Fs engine quadrant, makes ingress and egress a bit more cumbersome because it sticks out.

Js serial numbers start with 24-xxxx, first thing to check make sure you getting what is being advertised.
Just because a woman wears a bikini, doesn’t make her a swimsuit model.

[carusoam]

Reminder…

Find the Mooney Time Line…

year by year changes that were executed to the model lines…

its around here somewhere…

-a-

[LANCECASPER]

13 minutes ago, carusoam said:

Reminder…

Find the Mooney Time Line…

year by year changes that were executed to the model lines…

its around here somewhere…

-a-

Model Chronology.pdf

[1980Mooney]

2 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

There’s more to a J vs F than just aerodynamics improvements.

As mentioned above cowling and belly panel changes make removal a 5 minute exercise.
The Js engine intake was vastly improved to the point the ram air became superfluous and was eventually removed.
Muffler was improved.
Stylistic changes like wing tips, fairings were added.
Later years got the max gross weight increased. Needed because above and fully articulated seats added to the empty weight.
Etc etc.
77 was a transition year, they still have the Fs engine quadrant, makes ingress and egress a bit more cumbersome because it sticks out.

Js serial numbers start with 24-xxxx, first thing to check make sure you getting what is being advertised.
Just because a woman wears a bikini, doesn’t make her a swimsuit model.

@Wildhorsetrail  You have to be careful with some of the statements above. Wingtips were added in ‘81 and one piece composite belly (“5 min exercise” comment) in ‘84.  But some earlier models were subsequently modified to add these features.  Last models (S/N24-3201, 3218+) came from Kerrville with 2900 lb GW, and the others -1686 thru -3200, -3202 thru -3217 can be modified per STC to get the 2900 lb. GW.  Pre ‘88 are stuck at 2740 lbs. 

So you have to look carefully at each particular plane that is for sale. 
 

http://www.mooneyevents.com/chrono.htm
 

201hist.xls

[Yetti]

The 70s F are prototypes for the early Js.   The Js have more speed mods.

[cbarry]

IMO, a decent F (good times and clean condition) with a nice panel compared  to a slightly newer J with a needed panel upgrade maybe one of the best values in this portion of the lineup.  The installed  panel alone maybe a higher cost than the airframe itself.  Of course the full value of the installed panel is not retained—that’s what makes the F you’re looking at possibly attractive.  
 

The F will always be an F, no matter what mods are done, but if you’re considering a Mooney you already appreciate efficiency and I would have a difficult time passing up a nicely updated F that will do most everything a J will do (maybe more in the useful load area).  On the other hand, if you’re looking to do the upgrades (hose money at an airframe…), a clean J is almost impossible to beat—all things considered.  

 

[icurnmedic]

What does that 10kts faster get you on a 200nm trip? 5 minutes ? 10? Negligible IMHO, when you consider the J is likely to run 20k -30k  or more when similarly equipped. 
I may be wrong but I don’t think the J has as much payload. 
That may be manipulated though as the J holds more fuel, I think.
Mine holds 64 gallons  

If you are going to need panel upgrades, look at potentially another 30-50k. 

I have a F, hardly ever worry about w&b, plan at 140kts, although I observe closer to 145kt on average.Plenty fast for me.

BTW, I have the cowl enclosure Mod, gained at least 2kts, and cools much better. 
Thomas

[carusoam]

The M20F is an awesome plane….  Too awesome….

It has one drawback…

If you are hoping or expecting to sell it in a decade…

You are going to feel really bad about selling it….

To get another 30kts and gobs of storage is going to cost 2X what the M20F does….

 

Go Ovation!

 

-a-

[MikeOH]

Another happy F model owner here!  Mine is a '70 with a bunch of speed mods, but I plan for 145 kts.  Never flown a J so can't say, first hand, how much faster they are.  But, even if a J is 10-15 kts faster, it isn't going to save much time on a 200 nm trip.

IMHO, an F gets you 90% to a J.  Take a look at the ratio of prices on similarly equipped Js and Fs, and decide for yourself if the premium is worth the 10% delta.

Obviously, I didn't think it was

[Marauder]

I’m a 31 year owner of a late F model. I flight plan for 150 knots. I debated for years about whether to upgrade my F to something faster. The majority of my flying is on the east coast and trips are less than 500 nm.

Most of the earlier J models are 5 to 8 knots faster than my modded F. A late model J will get you in the 160+ range. As others have pointed out, even at a 10 knot delta, we are talking about minutes difference on a 200 nm flight.

I just plugged in what I think are TAS for various models for a 234 nm trip I make periodically. I used today’s weather (7 knot headwind at 8000’).

My F: 1+41
A J: 1+36
An Ovation: 1+29 (at 175)
A Bravo: 1+20 (at 200)(when I take the Bravo up to FL180, it is 1+35)

The advantages of the Ovation and Bravo are speed over longer distance flights. And in the case of the Bravo (or other turbo assisted models) there are advantages of better tailwinds and being above a lot of weather in the flight levels.

Now when I take my friend’s Piper Cherokee C on this trip, it’s the 2+31 where you can see tears of pain in my eyes. 🥲


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[rbp]

On 1/18/2022 at 11:21 PM, Wildhorsetrail said:

mountains of Idaho, Washington, and Montana

have you considered a turbo? 231 252 Bravo?