What’s the biggest myth about Mooney’s?

[Austintatious]

On 1/16/2022 at 12:42 PM, philip_g said:

With two large adults in front and 100lbs of lead shot in baggage we were ahead of the cg limit.

One of our w&b is probably off from 40 years of changes. Also that weird cap on top of the envelope shifts rearward. Monroys helped, as the gas shifted us aft a bit, but I assume every rocket has monroys.

Most do, but one of mine does not.  Still I managed a 3:40 min flight from DPA to FTW with 18 gallons still in the tank. 

I am pretty sure my W&B is correct or very close to it.  I looked through it very closely  when I first got the aircraft, checking the changes along the way.  Of course the only way to know for sure is to put it on scales.

Edited January 17, 2022 by Austintatious

[carusoam]

23 minutes ago, Austintatious said:

Of course the only way to know for sure is to put it on scales.

A second way to know about your WnB…

Compare flight characteristics to known values…

The weight part can be checked by acceleration and climb rate…

The balance aspect follows the trim range…

 

if your performance characteristics are off, or run out of trim too soon, or have too much trim…

WnB can be showing signs….

 

Of course, it’s easier, more accepted, and more direct, to weigh the plane and do the math…. 

 

pp thoughts only…

-a-

[Austintatious]

3 minutes ago, philip_g said:

Dunno. We had all three charlie weights. The best option is probably a lighter prop

well, clearly one of us has a W&B discrepancy.  I might for good measure have mine put on scales during the next annual.

 

As Carusoam mentioned... I feel like the aircraft is flying well within expectations.  Even when I inadvertently flew 1 inch forward of CG, I still had some up trim to spare when landing, not a lot but I wasn't at max NU trim.

[A64Pilot]

On 1/17/2022 at 2:44 PM, Austintatious said:

well, clearly one of us has a W&B discrepancy.  I might for good measure have mine put on scales during the next annual.

 

As Carusoam mentioned... I feel like the aircraft is flying well within expectations.  Even when I inadvertently flew 1 inch forward of CG, I still had some up trim to spare when landing, not a lot but I wasn't at max NU trim.

Not saying it’s the case for a Mooney, but many aircraft’s fwd CG limit is where they exceed 61 kts stall at max gross weight, they will still fly fine and land fine, just a tiny bit faster. Often that rearward shift as weight increases is riding the 61 kt stall.

Sometimes it’s a nose gear structural limit. It’s not often any kind of stability limit.

Aft CG on the other hand, is very often a stability limit, most will NOT fly fine beyond aft CG limit.

My Maule was out of CG fwd with low fuel and just two heavy people up front, I liked it that way because it made is so I could really load heavy before going out of aft CG. Being a tailwheel I think it’s fwd limit was from a nose over possibility, it certainly wasn’t 61 kts nor a nose wheel limit as it didn’t have one. So many things may be the cause of the fwd limit.

Edited January 18, 2022 by A64Pilot

[Hank]

28 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

. . . many aircraft’s fwd CG limit is where they exceed 61 kts stall at max gross weight, they will still fly fine . . .

Aft CG on the other hand, is very often a stability limit, most will NOT fly fine beyond aft CG limit.

"Nose heavy flies poorly. Tail heavy flies once."

[201er]

1 hour ago, Hank said:

"Nose heavy flies poorly. Tail heavy flies once."

 

[carusoam]

That’s pretty grizzly….

Good thing Dan G is such a likable character to deliver such a fine sermon….

+1 know your WnB 

-a-

[Speed Merchant]

On 1/9/2022 at 3:53 PM, carusoam said:

See if @Speed Merchant is familiar with that…

-a-

Yep I was the project engineer and project pilot on the Fury. It would cruise at 185. At most altitudes it would loop from cruise- it also had a great control system and light ailerons. Total blast to fly.

[Hank]

2 hours ago, Speed Merchant said:

Yep I was the project engineer and project pilot on the Fury. It would cruise at 185. At most altitudes it would loop from cruise- it also had a great control system and light ailerons. Total blast to fly.

Why was it never developed for sale, even as a kit? It looked quite interesting, although I would not want one in bright yellow. 

[Pinecone]

On 1/8/2022 at 7:55 PM, ilovecornfields said:

When I approached my current mechanic I told him that I heard he was reluctant to work on Mooneys but I was hoping he would make an exception. He said “I have nothing against Mooneys. It’s the owners that drive me crazy!”

Sounds like one higher end auto shop that I used to use, when speaking about BMW owners.

They would only work on select BMW owner's cars. 
 

[goterminal120]

Put 400 HP in an Ovation and see if it can out run a Comanche. I’ve got a dollar that says it could.

[201er]

2 hours ago, goterminal120 said:

Put 400 HP in an Ovation and see if it can out run a Comanche. I’ve got a dollar that says it could.

ATC slowed me down in my 201 behind a Comanche on a victor airway. They finally asked him to do best speed and he said he already was!

And that’s what? 260HP vs 200HP?

Edited May 16, 2022 by 201er

[Mooney in Oz]

27 minutes ago, 201er said:

ATC slowed me down in my 201 behind a Comanche on a victor airway. They finally asked him to do best speed and he said he already was!

And that’s what? 260HP vs 200HP?

No, no, no, you’re wrong.

That was Clarence @M20Doc in his 400 HP Comanche you were following 

[KLRDMD]

1 hour ago, 201er said:

ATC slowed me down in my 201 behind a Comanche on a victor airway. They finally asked him to do best speed and he said he already was!

And that’s what? 260HP vs 200HP?

Here's my favorite ATC transmission. I was doing transition training for a guy into an Oviation he just bought. We were coming into KTUS (Tucson) overtaking a Lear Jet by 40 to 50 knots, and that was after we were asked to slow 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, 201er said:

ATC slowed me down in my 201 behind a Comanche on a victor airway. They finally asked him to do best speed and he said he already was!

And that’s what? 260HP vs 200HP?

Clearly there was something wrong with that 260.  It should easily out pace your J model.

Clarence

[Skates97]

We were on flight following once and pacing a Cherokee in my M20D, within 1-2mph according to ADS-B. Same altitude, same direction of flight, about four miles apart so winds were the same. Having done all my PPL in Cherokee's I was very familiar with their performance and I kept thinking "There's no way that's a Cherokee." 

I was low enough for a cell signal and looked up the N number. It was a Cherokee Six, that made me feel better about the speed of my Mooney with its little 180hp O-360.

[Hank]

8 minutes ago, Skates97 said:

We were on flight following once and pacing a Cherokee in my M20D, within 1-2mph according to ADS-B. Same altitude, same direction of flight, about four miles apart so winds were the same. Having done all my PPL in Cherokee's I was very familiar with their performance and I kept thinking "There's no way that's a Cherokee." 

I was low enough for a cell signal and looked up the N number. It was a Cherokee Six, that made me feel better about the speed of my Mooney with its little 180hp O-360.

It's a great feeling to walk away from C182s, too, isn't it?

[Will.iam]

On 1/13/2022 at 3:45 PM, Yourpilotincommand said:

Biggest myth? Hmmmm… Mooneys will get you laid way more than Pipers or Cessnas :-)

That’s because you forget to show her your I mean the mooney erect tail. Gets them every time. 

[M20F]

I find the biggest myth about airplanes is owners of whatever flavor are objective on their aircraft :-)

[Guest]

12 hours ago, Will.iam said:

That’s because you forget to show her your I mean the mooney erect tail. Gets them every time. 

Younger Mooney owners run lean of peak and older Mooney owners only get their gear up manually. I’m guessing that both groups don’t get very much.

Clarence

[Jerry 5TJ]

A myth I’ve encountered frequently in transition training: That the Mooney stall behavior is unpredictable and that an abrupt spin entry follows each approach to stall.

[ArtVandelay]

A myth I’ve encountered frequently in transition training: That the Mooney stall behavior is unpredictable and that an abrupt spin entry follows each approach to stall.

Which brings up the biggest myth of all. All Mooneys are whatever.

Short bodies were more nose heavy. Some even had battery up front.
Mid bodies (F/J) extended fuselage resulting in being less nose heavy.
K extended nose with 6 cylinder heavier engine.
Long bodies extended the fuselage again but added a heavier engine.

The nose heavy models will be more benign during stalls.

[Pinecone]

On 5/16/2022 at 1:25 AM, 201er said:

ATC slowed me down in my 201 behind a Comanche on a victor airway. They finally asked him to do best speed and he said he already was!

And that’s what? 260HP vs 200HP?

 

There were also 180 HP Comanches.

 

180 - Cruise 116 - 139

250

260 - Cruise speed advertised as 142 - 161 knots

400 - Cruise book at 184 knots

 

 

[201er]

3 hours ago, Pinecone said:

There were also 180 HP Comanches.

260 - Cruise speed advertised as 142 - 161 knots

Didn’t realize they had 180s. Had to go back and check. 1971 PIPER PA-24-260

[Pinecone]

I was supposed to do my CFII in one.  But there was a prop issue on the runup, so we switched to a Cherokee.