201er Posted October 18, 2021 Report Posted October 18, 2021 3 hours ago, RoundTwo said: As a fixed gear pilot looking for a Mooney, the most frightful thing I can think of is the possibility of landing gear up. If that's the most frightening thing, you got much bigger dangers to worry about... 3 hours ago, RoundTwo said: Why not add a visual annunciator at the base of the windscreen to flash when GU alerts sound? A blinking, backlit message board with warning style graphics up where a pilot is focusing during landing should get the proper amount of attention. Has anything like this been tried before? They've already had this on Mooneys back in the 1940s. They probably had their reasons to do away with it. Maybe some pilot crashed after getting so fixated on the mesmerizing warning that they realized it's less dangerous to have a gear whoopsie. I dunno. Quote
RoundTwo Posted October 18, 2021 Author Report Posted October 18, 2021 18 minutes ago, N9405V said: The cost to develop and then retrofit a fleet of 50+ year old technology makes it prohibitive. Right now ForeFlight tells me through Bluetooth to my Bose that I’m 500’ agl. Maybe if you could add “check gear” to that message it could be one easy fix. Then again, not everyone flies with ForeFlight or an Efb that talks to you. Gear ups suck, but there are a lot worse things to do in an airplane. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk I don’t have much cost info, but I did see one device for 0.25AMU. Quote
RoundTwo Posted October 18, 2021 Author Report Posted October 18, 2021 15 minutes ago, JWJR said: Forget the gear warning flashing lights and horns. With today’s technology we should be able to integrate a shock collar to give you some encouragement to drop that gear before turning base. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk My dog wears one, so I’m sure it wouldn’t be too hard. Give the remote to the SIC. R2 Quote
RoundTwo Posted October 18, 2021 Author Report Posted October 18, 2021 4 minutes ago, 201er said: If that's the most frightening thing, you got much bigger dangers to worry about... They've already had this on Mooneys back in the 1940s. They probably had their reasons to do away with it. Maybe some pilot crashed after getting so fixated on the mesmerizing warning that they realized it's less dangerous to have a gear whoopsie. I dunno. I should have chosen my words more wisely. But, you have to admit, going from fixed gear to retracts, GU landings are pretty high on the “don’t F this up” list. Quote
JWJR Posted October 18, 2021 Report Posted October 18, 2021 Keep in mind the ( I forgot ) is rarely just that. It’s often accompanied by low fuel emergencies- sick passengers- poor weather approaching the airport area- engine roughness- and so on. Some of the piper arrow models had an auto deploy- it just opened another can of legal worms after a few go around accidents when gear drag prevented climb of an obstacle. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote
N201MKTurbo Posted October 18, 2021 Report Posted October 18, 2021 5 minutes ago, JWJR said: Keep in mind the ( I forgot ) is rarely just that. It’s often accompanied by low fuel emergencies- sick passengers- poor weather approaching the airport area- engine roughness- and so on. Some of the piper arrow models had an auto deploy- it just opened another can of legal worms after a few go around accidents when gear drag prevented climb of an obstacle. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Yes, my understanding was it turned a money problem into a fatality problem. 2 Quote
RoundTwo Posted October 18, 2021 Author Report Posted October 18, 2021 Just now, JWJR said: Keep in mind the ( I forgot ) is rarely just that. It’s often accompanied by low fuel emergencies- sick passengers- poor weather approaching the airport area- engine roughness- and so on. Some of the piper arrow models had an auto deploy- it just opened another can of legal worms after a few go around accidents when gear drag prevented climb of an obstacle. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Yes, several more good reasons to have an extra level of cognitive jarring to help break through a thick layer of existing distractions. Auto deploy mechanisms are certainly a different thing altogether and can’t be used as a credible reason to argue against an alert that is less passive than existing gear horns. Hey, I get it. I’m human too and I hate being reminded of it. I’m the guy that backed a forklift out of my new equipment shed and hooked the header with an extended mast. I now have a perpetual lean to be a constant reminder of my mistake. Accidents happen and this wasn’t an “I forgot”, but I inadvertently left my hand on the lever and lifted the forks. Having some bars to go “clang” if I hit them are coming. Will it PREVENT any and all f’ups? No. Will it lessen the chance? Yes. Risk mitigation, that’s all it is. Thanks to everyone for great dialogue. R2 Quote
RobertGary1 Posted October 18, 2021 Report Posted October 18, 2021 I have the av- 17 so I hear “check landing gear” if I pull power below 12” and the gear is up. https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/avpages/av17voiceannunciator.php 1 Quote
JWJR Posted October 18, 2021 Report Posted October 18, 2021 The engineers that designed the Cirrus models and Cessna TTX folks addressed the gear up issue and came up with a fail proof solution. The Diamond engineers have decided to go a different route. I’m not sure if they added any new tech to prevent gear ups in their new retract model. I’ll look into it and report back if I find any new tech.Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 1 Quote
ilovecornfields Posted October 18, 2021 Report Posted October 18, 2021 I did get the microkit landing height system (although I haven’t had it installed yet) which should remind me to check my gear (and be less intimidating than @donkaye asking me that during the flare) but I don’t think this is a really big deal. If moving up to a Mooney from a 172 I’d be much more worried about weather, stall/spin and bounces/prop strikes than I would about landing gear up. 2 Quote
hammdo Posted October 18, 2021 Report Posted October 18, 2021 14 minutes ago, ilovecornfields said: I did get the microkit landing height system (although I haven’t had it installed yet) which should remind me to check my gear (and be less intimidating than @donkaye asking me that during the flare) but I don’t think this is a really big deal. If moving up to a Mooney from a 172 I’d be much more worried about weather, stall/spin and bounces/prop strikes than I would about landing gear up. This is what I have (LHS) and is a very nice reminder about the gear - in the headsets. For me, if I can't slow her down when trying to land, I know the gear is up. I've tested that with my CFI and sure enough, she won't slow down well if the gear is up. I'm lucky, in a way, to know if the gear is down: 1) Johnson bar (on down wind) ck 2) Johnson bar (on base) ck and 3) yes Johnson bar (on final) ck. I then get the LHS warning on short final.... I do have the light (green is down, red is up) the gear horn, and the landing height system but, the Johnson bar is a pretty good validation for down or not (having new down/up blocks ;o) -Don Quote
Parker_Woodruff Posted October 18, 2021 Report Posted October 18, 2021 5 hours ago, carusoam said: The guy with the best statistics for this is… @Parker_Woodruff (An invite for Parker to join us here) Expect age to have benefits and challenges at all ranges of the age spectrum… Fortunately… around here… age and experience have shown improved abilities over young and low experience… Don’t rush getting older just to improve your experience level…. Best regards, -a- statistics are tough to find in aggregated form...but I can tell you from recent repair quotes, the cost of repair is getting exceptionally high. 1 1 Quote
Lance Link Posted October 19, 2021 Report Posted October 19, 2021 There are a few devices that make a woman yell in your ear. Just get one. Quote
carusoam Posted October 19, 2021 Report Posted October 19, 2021 10 hours ago, RoundTwo said: Hey, I get it. I’m human too and I hate being reminded of it. I’m the guy that backed a forklift out of my new equipment shed and hooked the header with an extended mast. I now have a perpetual lean to be a constant reminder of my mistake. Accidents happen and this wasn’t an “I forgot”, but I inadvertently left my hand on the lever and lifted the forks. Having some bars to go “clang” if I hit them are coming. Will it PREVENT any and all f’ups? No. Will it lessen the chance? Yes. Risk mitigation, that’s all it is. Thanks to everyone for great dialogue. R2 Fantastic… 1) You are familiar with having different machines… 2) You are familiar with the effects of distraction… loud crunching metal sounds… 3) Commit to a method to avoid them… 4) Tough to do in a random world… because there probably isn’t a HysterSpace to share procedures with… 5) Fortunately, there is an MS where these things get discussed pretty often… 6) Note that it is pretty clearly mentioned above… GUs are costly…. But, if you get so focussed on them… you might miss something more important at the same time… PP thoughts only, keep flying and gaining experience… share the experience… see how much you don’t get completely perfect… It’s fun being human… Best regards, -a- Quote
Austintatious Posted October 19, 2021 Report Posted October 19, 2021 10 hours ago, hammdo said: This is what I have (LHS) and is a very nice reminder about the gear - in the headsets. For me, if I can't slow her down when trying to land, I know the gear is up. I've tested that with my CFI and sure enough, she won't slow down well if the gear is up. I'm lucky, in a way, to know if the gear is down: 1) Johnson bar (on down wind) ck 2) Johnson bar (on base) ck and 3) yes Johnson bar (on final) ck. I then get the LHS warning on short final.... I do have the light (green is down, red is up) the gear horn, and the landing height system but, the Johnson bar is a pretty good validation for down or not (having new down/up blocks ;o) -Don I have seen this notion that the mooney will not slow down without the gear down mentioined twice now and it is prompting me to tell this story about a friend. First off, this is a half truth. For a normal flight profile, this is largely true as we typically enter the patter out of a descent. So heres the chain. 1. Airplane gets a bath 2. Pilot decides to take it around the pattern to blow dry it. Never gets fast, never gets high. 3. About base turn, pilot recieves a call. Newfangled avionics/comms put call into av headset. Pilot takes call only to tell them he will call back when on ground. 4. No gear warning heard on final, aircraft otherwise fully configured. 5. Scraaaaaaaaaaaape. The gear horn was found to be non functional, even though the aircraft was fresh out of annual. 1 year down for repairs. Lesson 1. while out of a normal flight profile, the mooney is tough to slow down, do not let that instill a false sense of security. These planes can and do slow down to approach speed sans gear under the right conditions. This particular mooney was a rocket. Lesson 2. Make sure the person doing your annual checks your gear horn function and that the horn is loud Enough to actually hear. 3 Quote
carusoam Posted October 19, 2021 Report Posted October 19, 2021 Great experience shared Austin! Thanks, -a- Quote
larrynimmo Posted October 19, 2021 Report Posted October 19, 2021 I installed the LHS system…and it works…. it calls out ….70 ”check your gear” 50 20 10 5 2 1 it not only reminds you to gear down (or to check), it also helps you perfect your minimum impact landing skills…and is absolutely the best for night landing when you are not in practice. this is one of the least expensive device to help you. I also practice reducing my speed to 110k or less and fully retarted throttle so that I can verify that the horn work…all before dropping the gear. 1 Quote
201er Posted October 19, 2021 Report Posted October 19, 2021 (edited) 18 hours ago, RoundTwo said: Hey, I get it. I’m human too and I hate being reminded of it. I’m the guy that backed a forklift out of my new equipment shed and hooked the header with an extended mast. I now have a perpetual lean to be a constant reminder of my mistake. Accidents happen and this wasn’t an “I forgot”, but I inadvertently left my hand on the lever and lifted the forks. Having some bars to go “clang” if I hit them are coming. Will it PREVENT any and all f’ups? No. Will it lessen the chance? Yes. Risk mitigation, that’s all it is. I said it once, I’ll say it again. You got much bigger problems to worry about than a gear up whoopsie. Faster airplanes crash faster. That means it hurts more. Having a “whoopsie” forgetting to put gear down will scrape your wallet and your pride. Having a “whoopsie” forgetting to maintain adequate angle of attack in the pattern and particularly the base to final turn will kill you. Having a “whoopsie” and forgetting to switch tanks and manage fuel properly could lead to an off field landing and possibly worse. Having a “whoopsie” and flying inadvertently into IMC will probably kill you too. A few wisdoms from my first glider flying instructor: ”Flying isn’t dangerous, crashing is” I asked what do you do if you screw up (particularly about making a landing attempt) and his answer was “don’t screw up.” If you feel you are prone to lapses of judgement you should seriously reconsider flying but especially a Mooney. The gear is the least of your problems. Poor decisions and lapses of judgment in the bigger picture cause a lot more damage. Higher speeds mean you gotta be able to think and operate at a faster level. That’s not for everyone. You may prefer to stick to fixed gear not just so you don’t forget to put the wheels down but because they are slower and more forgiving. I applaud you for not being cocky and admit your own vulnerability. That’s a good sense of judgement that you can use to prevent poor skills or whoopsies with. Best of luck. Edited October 19, 2021 by 201er Quote
GeeBee Posted October 19, 2021 Report Posted October 19, 2021 Remember when the Cherokee Arrow first came out? Flying magazine proclaimed "It would take a very special idiot to land gear up". Three weeks later they found that special idiot. Landed gear up with the auto system in over-ride and both the red and yellow lights flashing. If it can be done, it will be done. 1 Quote
RoundTwo Posted October 19, 2021 Author Report Posted October 19, 2021 18 hours ago, RobertGary1 said: I have the av- 17 so I hear “check landing gear” if I pull power below 12” and the gear is up. https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/avpages/av17voiceannunciator.php That looks great and combining the capability to alert for so many issues is great. Thanks for that. R2 Quote
RoundTwo Posted October 19, 2021 Author Report Posted October 19, 2021 18 hours ago, hammdo said: This is what I have (LHS) and is a very nice reminder about the gear - in the headsets. For me, if I can't slow her down when trying to land, I know the gear is up. I've tested that with my CFI and sure enough, she won't slow down well if the gear is up. I'm lucky, in a way, to know if the gear is down: 1) Johnson bar (on down wind) ck 2) Johnson bar (on base) ck and 3) yes Johnson bar (on final) ck. I then get the LHS warning on short final.... I do have the light (green is down, red is up) the gear horn, and the landing height system but, the Johnson bar is a pretty good validation for down or not (having new down/up blocks ;o) -Don I agree the extra visual clue would be beneficial. R2 Quote
RoundTwo Posted October 19, 2021 Author Report Posted October 19, 2021 1 hour ago, larrynimmo said: I installed the LHS system…and it works…. it calls out ….70 ”check your gear” 50 20 10 5 2 1 it not only reminds you to gear down (or to check), it also helps you perfect your minimum impact landing skills…and is absolutely the best for night landing when you are not in practice. this is one of the least expensive device to help you. I also practice reducing my speed to 110k or less and fully retarted throttle so that I can verify that the horn work…all before dropping the gear. The more see about the LHS, the more I like it. Thanks! R2 Quote
David Lloyd Posted October 19, 2021 Report Posted October 19, 2021 Landing at an airport that uses a traffic pattern, I put my hand on the gear switch entering the pattern and as soon as the plane slows to gear speed, the gear goes down. Landing at an airport from a straight-in approach, I put my hand on the gear switch at 1000' agl and as soon as the the plane slows to gear speed, the gear goes down. Both indicators are verified again during a final gumps check. This has worked for me, 40+ years, 6000+ retract hours. Quote
RoundTwo Posted October 19, 2021 Author Report Posted October 19, 2021 35 minutes ago, GeeBee said: Remember when the Cherokee Arrow first came out? Flying magazine proclaimed "It would take a very special idiot to land gear up". Three weeks later they found that special idiot. Landed gear up with the auto system in over-ride and both the red and yellow lights flashing. If it can be done, it will be done. I see you’re in Cumming. I’m between Canton and Cartersville. We should meet up sometime. Quote
RoundTwo Posted October 19, 2021 Author Report Posted October 19, 2021 18 minutes ago, David Lloyd said: Landing at an airport that uses a traffic pattern, I put my hand on the gear switch entering the pattern and as soon as the plane slows to gear speed, the gear goes down. Landing at an airport from a straight-in approach, I put my hand on the gear switch at 1000' agl and as soon as the the plane slows to gear speed, the gear goes down. Both indicators are verified again during a final gumps check. This has worked for me, 40+ years, 6000+ retract hours. That’s a great system that seems pretty bulletproof. R2 Quote
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