M20J annual cost?

[OR75]

They actually did a good job documenting the items requested by the customer , recommended or airworthiness 

the operator has to keep on check if that’s the case , that he is operating as part 91

and most items are on conditions , including the prop and hoses 

[PilotX]

Base annual (service items plus ADs) $1580. I bought tires and tubes so $2246. That is for a Bravo. 

[Guest]

6 hours ago, tigers2007 said:

My $1500 guy (for a vintage) went to $2500 after establishing his operation. I move a few hours West. Due to time constraints and the bird now out of annual I opted to use the on-field A&P. Very very long story short, my expected $2-3k annual is quoted at $30-40k. Several thousands of dollars later I get my plane back from enemy hands, get a ferry permit and it’s completed by the original guy I should have went back to in the first place. Then the FAA knocks on my door as the swindler A&P/firm allegedly reports me to the FAA for misconduct (which was quickly resolved). 
I’m all-in for using a service like Mike Busch’s consulting firm after going through the hell that one A&P did.
As you’ll read on MS, it’s better to have the annual performed in YOUR hangar as you retain CONTROL of your plane. Otherwise it could be held hostage in a million pieces for months while you negotiate with the hostage-takers.

Just my opinion…

I’m curious what they found for $30-40K?

Clarence

 

[EricJ]

2 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

 

100_Hour_2018.pdf 88.46 kB · 60 downloads

That's not an ICA. 

[Lance Link]

We pay the base annual amount, then all of the "scheduled maintenance" items that are triggered by hours flown or calendar time, and then for stuff that breaks or wears out.  It's only been 3 years, but it has averaged close to $7k per year for all of that.  It may be that we are playing catch-up and will have some lower bills in the next couple of years.  But then I've been thinking that for the last couple of years.  I suspect with all things considered it's hard to get by with less than an average of $5k per annual, including scheduled maintenance.  

[OR75]

I would have refused a lot of the recommended actions … changing a seal should not be $100

ADs just pop up … $100 a pop 

[Will.iam]

Well i dropped my mooney off at Dugosh Aviation in kerrville this past Monday. Annual starts at $2040 for M20k and includes the labor for oil change but not the oil or filter itself. I dropped off a laundry list of things that need to be fixed including a starter adapter overhaul. Will let you know what the final bill is when it’s over. 

[dzeleski]

My J had a 11k annual right before I purchased it. Needed new gear rubbers, patched leaking tanks, ADSB out, rigging was out, lots of gaskets, mags needed an OH, AD checks since the logbook wasnt clear on if they were actually done.

The first annual under my ownership was 5k. Required a OH tailpipe, brake pads and seals, landing gear required a ton of re rigging with the doors as things were not set correctly, and a handful of other minor items.

I have not had many maintenance items since December of 2019, I had a cracked fuel line as well as a leaking fuel line, failed transponder antenna, bad audio jack, and thats about it. < 1000 for all of those to be fixed.

My second annual should be < 3k

[thinwing]

On 8/28/2021 at 12:41 PM, M20Doc said:

How does he run up and perform a hot cylinder compression check when the plane is on jacks when he arrives?  When he signs out the plane as being Airworthy does he leave you to reassemble the plane.  If yes, the airplane wasn’t Airworthy when he signed it out.

Not trying to be difficult, just dying to understand.  In Canada I could do that it this way as we never have to sign the plane as being airworthy, we sign attesting the the inspection and the work meeting standards.

Clarence

Clarence,he probably has a long time working relationship ,and the IA trusts him...similar to shops using non ap rated mechanics under direct supervision....say he does the runup first thing...than decowels and calls the IA over and they both do the compression check...than he opens up the aircraft,drains the oil while hot,and places jacks.Removes the plugs and calls the IA back over to observe magneto timing and starts going over Mooney annual/100 hr check list.Pretty common for owner assist annuals at my field

[Philip France 13]

I use as reference the maintenance manual for my M20J « Man- 123 »

I am the owner of the plane since 20years, 2000hrs flew with it across europe,

Had a similar experience the 1st 2x year with real expensive annuals done at JAR145 big maintenance shop. Then i found a small shop and got my part-66 to participate and contribute to the annuals.

ended up learning what to do, and paying for the pure annual 1500$ 

then you have to separate repair cost : in my case with M20J very few after 20 years, i had to repair light strobes, fuel leaks, repaint corrosion here and there total cost 3000$ = 150$ / year

after that there are planned expenses : propeller and regulator overhaul every 6 years, mags overhaul every 500 hrs, vacuum pump every 500 hrs to be replaced, tires and brake lining about every 500 hrs, battery every 5 years, and engine plus barry mount plus muffer every 2000 hrs

i also made several radio upgrades : for mode s transponder, gns430, gnc255 for 8.33kHz spacing, and later GTN750 + GMA35c

to make the story complete i am counting about 200€ total cost per hour including, hangar, insurance, and more expensive fuel in France. I would recommend you plan 200$ per hour and you should be safe..

Enjoy your Mooney this is a fantastic airplane

Philip

 

 

[Warren]

Base annual for a M20K is $2125 plus materials (oil, filters,...).

[OR75]

why does a G5 battery capacity test, which takes literally 1 (one) mn as per the Garmin ICA manual, is charged 0.5 hours ? the software update is not a mandated/airworthiness item.

[philiplane]

54 minutes ago, OR75 said:

why does a G5 battery capacity test, which takes literally 1 (one) mn as per the Garmin ICA manual, is charged 0.5 hours ? the software update is not a mandated/airworthiness item.

Because shops have to create work orders, assign a tech to specific tasks, follow the procedure in the manual, verify the tasks were done, and make log entries, Which means they have to open the installation or component maintenance manual as well, to make sure the procedure is done correctly. Some ICA's have multiple items that are tested as part of a component check. Garmin's manuals have grown dramatically in the last few years.

[rbridges]

Getting my plane back from Cole Aviation this Friday.  Base annual is $1800, labor is $110/hr.  I knew my voltage regulator and alternator were toast, and they were a big chunk of the extra cost.  I think it was under 1 AMU for the other niggling stuff.

[OR75]

15 minutes ago, philiplane said:

Because shops have to create work orders, assign a tech to specific tasks, follow the procedure in the manual, verify the tasks were done, and make log entries, Which means they have to open the installation or component maintenance manual as well, to make sure the procedure is done correctly. Some ICA's have multiple items that are tested as part of a component check. Garmin's manuals have grown dramatically in the last few years.

Then what is included in the annual inspection base ? each time a screw or bolt has to be  removed there need to be a work order ? 

[philiplane]

5 hours ago, OR75 said:

Then what is included in the annual inspection base ? each time a screw or bolt has to be  removed there need to be a work order ? 

What is included, is only what is on the annual inspection checklist as published by Mooney. There is no G5 on that list, so it becomes a separate billable task because it has Instructions for Continued Airworthiness that have to be followed. Pretty nearly every piece of avionics will have some ICA. Air-oil separators have them, batteries have them, inflatable door seals have them, Challenger air filters have them, etc. All of those are in addition to the factory prescribed maintenance items. Without a clear list, a new to you shop will have to go through the logs and over the plane to determine what accessories have been installed and what maintenance requirements apply. That's why it's in the owner's best interest to compile that information, and provide it up front, rather than complain that the shop billed time to do a myriad list of tasks that they were not anticipating. It's not any different from doing AD research, to see what has been done, what needs to be done, and if any new AD's just came out. Against the plane, and all the added equipment.

As the number of A&P's continues to decline, it is more important than ever to develop a good working relationship with one. Part of that is talking through the work scope in advance, and being a pro-active owner that helps with the documentation, and gives a detailed squawk list as needed. The cheaper that owners try to be, the fewer A&P's there are to work on light aircraft. Corporate operators, and large shops scoop up decent A&P's and pay them very well. You as a Mooney owner are competing for that same labor pool when you try to find an independent A&P to come to your hangar.

Edited August 31, 2021 by philiplane

[carusoam]

Great details Phillip!

Thanks for taking the time to describe the business side of GA.

Best regards,

-a-

[Guest]

The struggle to find help for your average GA shop is very real.  The race to the bottom is driving maintainers out of GA.  Why argue with an owner about the cost of a case of oil and a filter when the airline job doesn’t have that kind of BS.

You’re all doing it to yourselves. 

Clarence

 

[ArtVandelay]

The struggle to find help for your average GA shop is very real.  The race to the bottom is driving maintainers out of GA.  Why argue with an owner about the cost of a case of oil and a filter when the airline job doesn’t have that kind of BS.
You’re all doing it to yourselves. 
Clarence
 

That’s the least of my APs problems, he has a customer that doesn’t want to pay. He said he should have known when the guy came from 50 miles away…all the other APs know him.
I was thinking someone needs to start the equivalent of Yelp, but to review customers.
He also lost a worker to Delta (full benefits, etc). But I am sure that job has its downsides as well.

[cliffy]

1 hour ago, M20Doc said:

The struggle to find help for your average GA shop is very real.  The race to the bottom is driving maintainers out of GA.  Why argue with an owner about the cost of a case of oil and a filter when the airline job doesn’t have that kind of BS.

You’re all doing it to yourselves. 

Clarence

 

So true 

Trying to hire and keep A&Ps is a never ending job. My local shop just lost their IA after less than a year to a corporate operator. Anyone with skills and willing to move (maybe just across the airport ) can find jobs with a corporate outfit or an airline with out the hassles of GA price cutting and complaints. 

Think about it, the guy is in business trying to service your airplane and you walk in with your own oil, filter, plugs, parts, etc and ask him to put them all in and sign it off. How is a shop with overhead going to survive like that? 

People complain about $100/hr shop rates. Go look at the shop rate at the local Ford or Chevy dealer and then complain to them about lower their price. Or try to bring your own parts to them and  have them put them on! How about asking to help with the repair so you can lower your cost? Ain't gonna happen is it?

Deferred maintenance is nothing more than too much airplane and not enough pocket book!

And what do a large majority of small airplane suffer from?  Deferred Maintenance!

Just another observation after 50+ years in this business.

[Guest]

48 minutes ago, cliffy said:

So true 

Trying to hire and keep A&Ps is a never ending job. My local shop just lost their IA after less than a year to a corporate operator. Anyone with skills and willing to move (maybe just across the airport ) can find jobs with a corporate outfit or an airline with out the hassles of GA price cutting and complaints. 

Think about it, the guy is in business trying to service your airplane and you walk in with your own oil, filter, plugs, parts, etc and ask him to put them all in and sign it off. How is a shop with overhead going to survive like that? 

People complain about $100/hr shop rates. Go look at the shop rate at the local Ford or Chevy dealer and then complain to them about lower their price. Or try to bring your own parts to them and  have them put them on! How about asking to help with the repair so you can lower your cost? Ain't gonna happen is it?

Deferred maintenance is nothing more than too much airplane and not enough pocket book!

And what do a large majority of small airplane suffer from?  Deferred Maintenance!

Just another observation after 50+ years in this business.

Well said!

Clarence

[PT20J]

Reading this thread I see several items that drive up the cost of annual inspections:

1. Catching up deferred maintenance from previous owners or previous sloppy maintainers.

2. Including a list of squawks. These may well need to be fixed, but are not properly part of the annual inspection cost.

3. Doing work that is not actually required and can easily be done by the owner. Many ICAs fall into this category. Unless listed in the Limitations section, these are not required for Part 91 operations. You can easily do the G5 battery capacity test yourself for instance and save some money. 

Skip

[philiplane]

There are certain communities that are that are avoided by many mechanics, due to a reputation of being cheap above all else, rather than seeking good value. Mooney is high on the list, Comanches are too, and Grumman singles also come to mind. These owners need to understand that at some point, fairly soon, there will be no one to sign off their planes. You can only be so cheap for so long, before no one will work for you. There are very few young people getting into aviation maintenance, and there are not many highly experienced guys who are available.  Over the last five years, highly experienced & productive mechanics have become a hot commodity. The best can write their own ticket, and they command a premium. They are also the best value, because their efficiency makes them cost effective. You can hire a monkey cheaply, but in the end he will cost more than the best guy who charges $150 an hour.

My recommendation is to look at the overall cost for the value that you get, and not nit pick over each item. Like a marriage, a good owner/mechanic relationship requires work and communication from both sides. Each owner and mechanic will have different circumstances that influence the cost of each job. This is not Amazon. Going only for the lowest price is guaranteed to cause problems down the road.

Edited September 1, 2021 by philiplane

[Ragsf15e]

On 8/29/2021 at 11:34 AM, Jetrn said:

Starting 3 year of ownership, Aircraft was maintained by mooney service center in denver for 15 years.  I new there would be some catch up maintenance costs.  Flight home from colorado, plane would not start after landing in pomona california, no indication of mag problems inflight or startup from previous leg.  Overhauled mags, new wires and plugs $3500.  Was on my list to do myself in the near future as mags were near the 500 hour mark.  First annual with Lasar, base inspection $4500, catch up maintenance; new gear donuts, steering horn linkage rebuild, valve cover gaskets, exhaust gaskets, new o2 bottle, brake linings, 1 break caliper, 1 brake rotor, engine filters, elt battery.  My dad and I did the engine work as they had 100% crew turnover, all with no experience with mooneys. Cost $12000ish. Annual august 2021, lone mountain aviation henderson nevada annual combined with engine work from losing #2 cylinder leaving henderson to Tucson in April.  Replaced #2,4 cylinder with new, replaced engine mounts, pitot static test, and adjust engine fuel setup, otherwise a clean annual. total bill including base annual of $2700 out the door $11500.  I am not impressed with the previous mooney center in colorado, there were maintenance items that should have been addressed. I purchased my plane right out of annual at the time. Some of the items I had planned to address to decrease the cost but the plane had other things in mind. I am otherwise very happy with the performance and feel I am turning a corner with catch up maintenance. Next year I may consider using top gun for my annual and us the IA based in rio vista.

Two things to keep in mind…

1.  no matter how good/thorough the shop, they all have different strengths.  If you switch shops/IAs every year, you’ll end up with lots of squawks that were there the previous year, but missed or not considered noteworthy.

2.  After the first annual an IA signs off, the next year it’s much tougher for them to tell you about something big and expensive that is suddenly very important as it was probably already there last time they signed off the airplane.  If something big was close year one, they probably made you aware.  Sure a cylinder could lose compression or something go just out of specs, but you shouldn’t see “gear well corrosion needs fixed” on annual 2 unless it actually happened this year on your watch.

BL- if you switch every year, you might pay more.  Not always a bad thing to get a second set of eyes on it, but be cautious…

[Guest]

9 hours ago, PT20J said:

Reading this thread I see several items that drive up the cost of annual inspections:

1. Catching up deferred maintenance from previous owners or previous sloppy maintainers.

2. Including a list of squawks. These may well need to be fixed, but are not properly part of the annual inspection cost.

3. Doing work that is not actually required and can easily be done by the owner. Many ICAs fall into this category. Unless listed in the Limitations section, these are not required for Part 91 operations. You can easily do the G5 battery capacity test yourself for instance and save some money. 

Skip

There are a few other things as well.

Leaving your plane full of those important pilot items which get in the way when doing the inspection.  We have to gather them up, box them and store them.

Clean the plane, how do we inspect a dirty plane? Most manufacturers say to clean the plane as part of the inspection.  Show some pride of ownership.

Clarence