Mooney IFR or VFR?

[JimB]

So I am VFR only right now. I have wanted to get my instrument rating for a long time but it's a pretty big commitment in time and could never see how I would get it done. Well after having to back out of a couple trips this past summer due to marginal weather, I am starting my instrument training. Ground school and sim first and now we are in my airplane this weekend.

However, I was reading another post on taking a long trip VFR only and it made me wonder how many Mooney pilots are VFR or IFR and how many really use the instrument rating. I always assumed that since the Mooney is really designed to be a fast efficient trip machine that most Mooney pilots were IFR rated and filing IFR every time, but wanted to ask. 

Thanks

[hypertech]

I was VFR for a year and it was anxiety ridden.  It is hard to fly 700 nm and not run over weather *somewhere*.  Its so much less stressful to file and fly IFR.  I routinely go through a cloud layer somewhere along the way but haven't actually needed to fly that many approaches.  

That said, I do do short (maybe 150 nm or less) trips VFR somewhat regularly because the routing I get from ATC on the east cost can double the length of the trip.  I have on more than one occasion called for my clearance, received a ridiculous route, and cancelled opting for flight following instead.

[Andy95W]

Good question, Jim, but it’s really not as cut-and-dried as you’d think.

For me, on a 150+ mile trip, I’ll usually file IFR.  Less than 150 miles, I’ll file if I need to file due to weather or weird airspace.  But late fall in Michigan means icing in the clouds, so if the ceilings are less than 3000 feet, I’ll go VFR.

[Mooneymite]

I file IFR for most trips, long, or short.  IFR is less stressful as far as weather and accidentally encroaching on airspace.  However, as I approach my destination, weather permitting, I often cancel instruments and revert to flight following to give me the flexibility to fly an efficient arrival.  So often, ATC presses us into arrival routes made for jets.  (Our home drome is under Atlanta class B.)

Edited October 30, 2020 by Mooneymite

[JimB]

10 minutes ago, hypertech said:

I was VFR for a year and it was anxiety ridden.  It is hard to fly 700 nm and not run over weather *somewhere*.  Its so much less stressful to file and fly IFR.  I routinely go through a cloud layer somewhere along the way but haven't actually needed to fly that many approaches.  

The anxiety issue is what I'm talking about! I spent a lot of time worrying about the weather before a trip.

9 minutes ago, Andy95W said:

Good question, Jim, but it’s really not as cut-and-dried as you’d think.

For me, on a 150+ mile trip, I’ll usually file IFR.  Less than 150 miles, I’ll file if I need to file due to weather or weird airspace.  But late fall in Michigan means icing in the clouds, so if the ceilings are less than 3000 feet, I’ll go VFR.

I understand and makes sense. I am just really looking forward to having more options that an instrument rating will provide. 

[Amelia]

I file and fly IFR when it’s dicey airspace, like Washington DC area or busy class B, when it’s benign marginal to IFR weather en route, when somebody at the other end is waiting for me, when there’s a low deck and clear above.and at night. It is good to have a hand to hold. I do not file IFR when there’s potential ice at the en route altitudes. When the MEAs are above my pay grade.When the expect clearance advice is 2 hours. (Never mind, then, Boston Center!) When there are scattered summer build-ups along my route. I like to see where I’m going, and avoid bumps where practical.. When I have a passenger who wants to experience the joyous freedom of flight. 

[dzeleski]

Ive done a few 1000nm flights VFR only. I've had 2-5 eye opening experiences that have hurried my IFR training.

Its possible to go on long trips VFR only. But you need to expect being stuck on the ground more often then not. PPL lets you fly 1-3 days out of 10. IR lets you fly 6-8 days out of 10.

[Amelia]

And then there are days I just have to stay home and read a book. Yeah, I could take off zero-zero, but what happens when there’s no legal alternate within 200 miles? Or the fan quits and I’m climbing through 200 feet in the fog? A couple of days ago, I promised a friend a ride home, but it was solid VLIFR on the entire east coast. Nope. Sorry. He drove.

[jaylw314]

I'll always file and fly IFR for long trips, but what I've learned is that you have to be ready fly parts of it VFR if you want flexibility to avoid icing and thunderstorms.

[larryb]

For me it depends on expected weather. In the west it is often very clear and easy to fly a long trip VFR. In the east I have found it is generally a lot more cloudy and simply easier to fly IFR. Most of my IFR time at home is simply popping through a marine layer. Less than 1 minute actual for the flight. For my normal trips IFR adds at least 20 minutes to the trip, so I only do it when weather dictates. There have been tons of flights that I made VFR but would not have attempted without having the IFR rating and currency. Just have to have that option when you need it. It does remove a lot of anxiety.

 

That said, it does not remove all anxiety. Once you have the rating the next challenge is icing. After I had my IFR I cancelled a lot of trips because I could not be sure not to encounter a freezing cloud. Eventually I sold my J and bought a FIKI Encore. I rarely use the TKS, but just having it allows me to complete more flights than I could with my J.

 

Larry

[Amelia]

We flew coast to coast to coast pre-IFR, and there were a few days we explored the limited charms of teensy farm towns, and very rural no-tell motels with our impatient kids. “Builds character,” we claimed. My favorite co-pilot called and canceled his work schedule a few times. Sorry, y’all.  So the cancellations are fewer with the instrument rating and a faster, more capable airplane, but it ain’t perfect. I missed my mom’s funeral because of ice between the ground and heaven. C’est la vie. But the incomparable joy of punching through a drizzly low  cloud deck to brilliant sun and a tailwind on top for the next 700 miles is worth the effort to earn the rating.

[Ragsf15e]

In addition to relieving some trip anxiety, improving your dispatch rate, and giving you many more options along the way, getting your IFR rating will make you a better pilot and it will lower your insurance.

Now before @bluehighwayflyerjumps on me, you can be an excellent vfr only pilot.  Nothing wrong with that. However, getting the ifr rating will make you more precise, better with communication, and improve your situational awareness from wherever your starting point is.

And don’t count on the insurance reduction paying for your training, but why do they give that discount??  Lower fatal accident rate for ifr pilots even though they can legally fly in worse weather?  Maybe because they’ve shown some dedication to continued learning?  I’m not sure, but the insurance companies don’t usually give discounts as a congratulatory gift!

[Skates97]

1 hour ago, JimB said:

So I am VFR only right now. I have wanted to get my instrument rating for a long time but it's a pretty big commitment in time and could never see how I would get it done. Well after having to back out of a couple trips this past summer due to marginal weather, I am starting my instrument training. Ground school and sim first and now we are in my airplane this weekend.

However, I was reading another post on taking a long trip VFR only and it made me wonder how many Mooney pilots are VFR or IFR and how many really use the instrument rating. I always assumed that since the Mooney is really designed to be a fast efficient trip machine that most Mooney pilots were IFR rated and filing IFR every time, but wanted to ask. 

Thanks

I'm just getting into the ground school stuff to start my IFR. I'm 4 years into owning our Mooney and have over 400 hours in it all VFR. Our regular trips are SoCal to Phoenix and Salt Lake, but we have been to Oregon, Idaho, and last summer the East Coast. In fact I'll be wheels up in about 4 hours to spend the weekend in Salt Lake with the grandkids, looks to be a beautiful weekend to fly. I think part of the dispatch rate comes into where you live, as @larryb mentioned above. In the 400+ hours we have only scrubbed a couple of trips because of the weather, more often we are adjusting a departure/arrival by a few hours or a day. Once we were going from SoCal to Idaho Falls area and had to divert about 60 miles to the west to go around thunderstorms ahead of us, but out west it is often unlimited visibility (outside of fire season) and between what I can see out the windshield plus the weather on my tablet I stay out of trouble.

I haven't hesitated to take longer trips and honestly haven't ever had any real anxiety over the weather. I will watch the weather patterns in the week leading up to the trip, plan accordingly, and get my briefings. The main reason I want to get my rating is because often the marine layer will keep me grounded in the morning here in certain times of the year until it burns off.

[whiskytango]

I agree with @Amelia that going IFR makes life a lot easier if you are flying in the DC SFRA or even near the SFRA.  Why bother with filing a SFRA flight plan, flying to a Gate and then hoping that ATC will let you in (plus ATC will tell you to stay out of Class B if you are on a SFRA flight plan).  Also, going IFR keeps you out of pop-up TFRs.  A few years ago I heard some poor guy getting the "Possible Pilot Deviation"  greeting from ATC, when Prince Charles decided to visit Charleston SC on short notice, and a pop-up TFR was created that didn't exist when I got my briefing that morning.

[Mooneymite]

1 hour ago, larryb said:

.... For my normal trips IFR adds at least 20 minutes to the trip, so I only do it when weather dictates.....

Larry

Wow!  That is a huge differential.  I'm glad it's not like that around Atlanta unless the weather is really bad.

[Amelia]

Interesting, the regional variations. Flying IFR locally usually adds very little to my trip, unless I need to fly the full approach. But, then, I live in the middle of an east coast swamp. Wash Center cuts me loose 20 miles out, as we have no radar coverage below 2500’.  There are no big-city vectors or holds. It’s all RNAV direct. Passing Atlanta, you may as well plan to go way southeast by way of SINCA intersection, and yet over NY and CLT you’re pleasantly vectored right over the major airports at 6000- 8000. In New England, expect amendments no matter what you or your EFB guessed at. Victor airways clearances ziggy-zaggy at machine-gun speed. Ready to copy? Write fast!.

The time I flew from NC to the middle of eastern Oregon, and then to the Sacramento-area, a couple of years ago, made me very happy to be rated, equipped and current. Due to extensive fires, the smoke out there was thick, viz was terrible, lots of TFRs, and there were rocks in that murk. Big ones. No rain, no clouds, no ice, just smoke, and mountains. What a comfort to get a pop-up clearance around busy Boise, and then a few days later, nice gentle but real IFR from there to nor-cal. It is good to have options. 

[larryb]

25 minutes ago, Mooneymite said:

Wow!  That is a huge differential.  I'm glad it's not like that around Atlanta unless the weather is really bad.

In San Jose, CA, KRHV is very close to KSJC. We must be sequenced in with the jets. Also, the approach is from the South, I am usually approaching from the North. So it's 10 miles South to join the approach, 20 miles extra. Then there are the vectors for sequencing into the SJC traffic. VFR is simply a standard pattern and land. On departure it can be 20 minutes for release, although typically it's around 5 minutes. They wait for a lull in the traffic at SJC before they can let you go.

At KTRK it is a non-radar environment in the mountains, and the protected airspace is shared between two airports. So only 1 IFR operation allowed in the entire area at the same time for both airports. If there is an approach in progress at KTVL, you have to wait until it is complete before you can start yours at KTRK. 

[gsxrpilot]

I find the instrument rating to be essential for getting the most out of my Mooney. 

My mission is almost all cross country flying. And it goes everywhere. We've been to almost all 48 states in the Mooney, have been to the far north in Canada, and hope to go into central Mexico this winter. Alaska is on the list of places to go soon.

I try not to say "always" or "never" to anything in aviation. And the same goes for filing IFR. I'll file if it makes sense and not if it doesn't. I've found that living under the Denver Bravo, it's often best to decline the clearance on the ground and pick it up in the air to avoid the long trip around the Bravo. 

In Texas and through the Mid-West and East coast, the IR is good for cloudy skies. Here in the Rocky Mountains clouds are usually full if ice. So the IR is used for climbing above FL180 on clear blue days.

As a pilot who likes to keep learning, (tailwheel endorsement signed off just today) the instrument rating was just another step in that learning process. And it undoubtedly has made ME a better pilot. 

Getting better treatment from ATC is just a side benefit, but it is a real thing. 

[steingar]

I'd love the rating but doubt I'll ever have the ca$h to do it, barring someone dropping it in my lap.  Maybe my latest Origami book will sell like hotcakes.  I've done lots of trips VFR.  You've got to have quite a bit of flexibility, but if you do it can work out grandly.  I don't do long winter trips, too hard to get back.  But if you can pick your days you can often make it.

[slowflyin]

34 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

I find the instrument rating to be essential for getting the most out of my Mooney. 

My mission is almost all cross country flying. And it goes everywhere. We've been to almost all 48 states in the Mooney, have been to the far north in Canada, and hope to go into central Mexico this winter. Alaska is on the list of places to go soon.

I try not to say "always" or "never" to anything in aviation. And the same goes for filing IFR. I'll file if it makes sense and not if it doesn't. I've found that living under the Denver Bravo, it's often best to decline the clearance on the ground and pick it up in the air to avoid the long trip around the Bravo. 

In Texas and through the Mid-West and East coast, the IR is good for cloudy skies. Here in the Rocky Mountains clouds are usually full if ice. So the IR is used for climbing above FL180 on clear blue days.

As a pilot who likes to keep learning, (tailwheel endorsement signed off just today) the instrument rating was just another step in that learning process. And it undoubtedly has made ME a better pilot. 

Getting better treatment from ATC is just a side benefit, but it is a real thing. 

Congrats on the tailwheel endorsement!   

[The Other Red Baron]

1 hour ago, gsxrpilot said:

Getting better treatment from ATC is just a side benefit, but it is a real thing. 

 

I swear you can hear one of the local ATC guy's blood pressure go up and down depending on if you're requesting flight following or picking up your IFR.

 

Work From Home this year has made things infinitely easier on us when traveling.  We both normally work in an office so the get-there-itis gets pretty strong on our weekend trips. 

Couple personal experiences from me...

I like to go visit my parents by plane because it turns a 5+hr trip into about 1.5hr flight.  Every, single, time I have gone to visit them there has been enough clouds at either end to make VFR more difficult than I'd like or just impossible so I end up playing the waiting game or end up staying another night.  This is what finally pushed me to get my IR.

This one really stung because I HAD my instrument rating but I wasn't current-- Coming back from Austin one Sunday evening (get-there-itis brewing) it looked like clouds were going to roll in back home around the time we would arrive.  Clouds kept getting lower, and lower but no convective activity.  This would have been a super easy approach with the instrument rating and I probably would have just gone through the layer then cancelled IFR. Sure enough I end up having to divert to an airport an hour south from home and get an extremely overpriced rental car and drive home so the wife could get to her meeting Monday morning. Then going to pick the plane up and fly it home later in the week.  The alternative was scud running at night in a hilly terrain with no ground reference.  No thanks.

Coming back from Minnesota I had to stay VFR for awhile to stay under the potentially icy overcast layer.  Once we were away from all that mess we landed, topped the tanks back off, and filed IFR (hooray for currency!) to get through, up, and over the misty rainy mess that was all over the Mid-West that day.  Homebase was nice and clear.  I know if I was VFR I'd be grumbling staring at ForeFlight waiting a long time for that crap to clear out.

The instrument rating is totally worth it.

 

by the way I chose "I am IFR rated and that's the only way I fly trips in my Mooney" but for example the MN trip it was just easier to depart VFR and get IFR later.

Edited October 30, 2020 by The Other Red Baron

[201er]

My answer is missing entirely, it depends! I file IFR just in case and plan to go whichever way gets me there faster or more easily. When it’s VMC and I’m going to be given a long zigzag route IFR, I’ll cancel and go VFR direct. If the weather is sketchy I’ll go IFR. If I have to traverse airspace, IFR. If I get cleared as filed for IFR direct, why go VFR!? On the other hand, when I do go VFR I’m always getting advisories so it’s almost the same but gives me freedom over routing.

When the weather is good, go VFR. When the weather is bad, go IFR. When the weather is terrible (icing, tstorms), go VFR. When it’s extreme, don’t go at all.

International, I usually go IFR because it works better for border crossings and some VFR rules can be different or unknown to me. 

[201Mooniac]

5 hours ago, larryb said:

In San Jose, CA, KRHV is very close to KSJC. We must be sequenced in with the jets. Also, the approach is from the South, I am usually approaching from the North. So it's 10 miles South to join the approach, 20 miles extra. Then there are the vectors for sequencing into the SJC traffic. VFR is simply a standard pattern and land. On departure it can be 20 minutes for release, although typically it's around 5 minutes. They wait for a lull in the traffic at SJC before they can let you go.

At KTRK it is a non-radar environment in the mountains, and the protected airspace is shared between two airports. So only 1 IFR operation allowed in the entire area at the same time for both airports. If there is an approach in progress at KTVL, you have to wait until it is complete before you can start yours at KTRK. 

I also fly out of KRHV (we should meet up :-) ) and don't really find it a problem.  If it is VFR anyway and I'm coming from the north, I usually cancel around ALTAM and just go in VFR.  If from the south, then flying the approach isn't a big deal.  While during push time from SJC it can take 10-15 mins to get a release, again if VFR anyway I can depart and pick up my clearance when over Calavaras heading north or once I'm past the class C heading south.

[Hank]

I use whatever works for the trip, and have only requested pop-up clearances a couple of times.

That being said, I flew my Mooney for three years and 300+ hours before getting serious about IFR. That included a trip from WV to WY [1300+ nm each way] so my wife could see Yellowstone, and more trips than I can count going over the Appalachians to see family in NC and GA (summer, winter, Thanksgiving and Christmas). There were very few cancellations but several schedule adjustments, and I only diverted and landed elsewhere one time.

And just for @steingar, I was based in South Point, Ohio (KHTW, the original commercial airport for Huntington, WV), right on the bank of the Ohio River, with the same "beautiful" weather that I experienced living in metro-Columbus . . . .

But it is so very nice to get radio clearance from the nearby Class D and takeoff into the rainy gloom, then burst out after a minute or so and put on sunglasses. It's even nicer when Departure asks how thick the layer is!

Down here, though, Atlanta is a huge thorn in my side whether IFR or VFR. If IFR, I've actually been asked if I prefer HEFIN or SINCA; either one adds 20-25 minutes to my trip; when VFR, they are sometimes polite enough to ask me to "remain clear of the Bravo", otherwise it's "stay out of the Bravo"! I figure the emptiest volume inside the entire Bravo [which goes up to 12,500] is several thousand agl over the terminal, but approach is quite allergic to allowing any transient aircraft inside, and I'm not sure I could climb to 13,500 eastbound, cross the Bravo and get back under 12,500 in my C in less than the 30-minute limit. So I fly up and down the east or west side and often have to descend because they sent me around and through the arrival gate instead of straight through the empty air . . . 

It's tempting to fly across fhe bottom, turn north toward the arrivals at 9500, cancel flight following ("since you won't let me go through, guess I don't need services. Bye, ya'll!") and just listen to the chatter! But I haven't yet been that angry at Approach, in a bad enough mood and stupid all at once. But it's tempting! 

[McMooney]

IFR everywhere.  it seems to make flying under and between the Houston and Dallas B's easier. 

I also find it much easier to find airports when IFR 8)

Prior to the rating, I had no issues flying 1000+ miles VFR,  just had to be prepared to sit at times.

Actually, most of the times i was forced to sit VFR, would've also kept me from flying IFR. 

 

Edited October 31, 2020 by McMooney