Is Mooney corp still a thing?

[LANCECASPER]

8 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said:

Quite frankly you should be able to quote parts prices and shop rates at whatever the market will bear.

Before owners here lose their minds let's think about what you are going to do when you decide to sell your plane.  You are going to price it at whatever you think the market will bear.  If you have a model that is in demand, then you are going to quote the highest price possible.  The "cash price that you originally paid for it" is irrelevant. You are not going to share those costs and debate "fair mark up" with the "customer" (potential buyer).  And if you sense that you can get more then you will try to "mark it up" even more. I bet you, as the seller, won't feel like you are "ripping them off".  Instead you will feel like it was a fair price.

Why should we hold our MSC's, maintenance shops and "maintainers" to a pricing standard different than we will hold ourselves?

That being said one person selling another person an airplane is a one time transaction.

In choosing a service center hopefully the customer feels like it was a fair price where a reasonable profit was made and feels like they want to go back there next time, not like they were charged the very top of the market price and the shop had them over a barrel. The good shops strike a balance with good work and a price that's fair for both and that's why people like @M20Dochave repeat customers every year.

[Davidv]

4 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

That being said one person selling another person an airplane is a one time transaction.

In choosing a service center hopefully the customer feels like it was a fair price where a reasonable profit was made and feels like they want to go back there next time, not like they were charged the very top of the market price and the shop had them over a barrel. The good shops strike a balance with good work and a price that's fair for both and that's why people like @M20Dochave repeat customers every year.

Agreed, the market will take care of any imbalances.  If one shop wants to charge a significantly high markup their customers will either stay (because the service they receive is superior) or vote with their feet.  Likewise, if another shop is charging almost no markup, people will either have to spend a lot of money in avgas to get there (which will reduce the "discount") or the service center won't be in business very long because they aren't charging enough to cover their costs.

[Parker_Woodruff]

This thread is really something.  It can't be that hard to find a good shop with consistent pricing and not worry about the finer points of the bill if a Mooney part is marked up 14%, 15%, 16%, 24%, 25%, or 26%.  On a $200 part we are talking about a ~$30-$50 markup - the $20 difference which is inconsequential and the MSC handles the logistics for the owner.

It sure is nice to have two Mooney shops here in Texas where I could drop a plane, say "do what needs to be done", and I'd only get a call if something really bad popped up.  I can't recall being surprised by a bill.  But then again, I guess I have the expectation that "it's going to cost a lot more than I feel like paying" and then I end up pleasantly surprised.

Long live SWTA and Don Maxwell Aviation Services.

[MikeOH]

6 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

I think you and Lancecasper just described "what the market will bear".  Shops and MSC's should be able to price for the value that they deliver.

Doc's comment started in response to an owner seeking a replacement Arm Assy on the Cowl-Flap motor of a 1988 Mooney M20K - "none in stock at the factory".  And no comfort that any will be coming or when or at what price - who really knows what Mooney will support in the future.  If he can't find a salvage part, then Doc said maybe a talented welder might be able to fashion one from scratch (problem is no old part, template or drawing to work from - will it work or last - need an approval).  Good luck with that.

If that owner's time and airplane utility is of no value then he should be happy as a clam to have his plane down and useless waiting for the factory.  If by chance an MSC has the last Arm Assy for the cowl flap motor in North America gathering dust on the shelf, then why shouldn't they be able to price it closer to its "value" of time and utility to the K owner? In the Beech V-tail Bonanza world, no-one is surprised that those rare service centers or people with new magnesium ruddervator skins are pricing them for value and not some "customary mark-up" of original factory cost.

Hmm, generally speaking I agree with market pricing.  To me, however, there are ethical limits; at some point we are entering the realm of price gouging.  Which I think is what is behind complaints about markups.  For all the reasons stated I have no problem paying a reasonable markups; at some point, though, it is NOT in the eye of the beholder.

If you are okay with Bo owners paying astronomical prices for magnesium ruddervators, then don't complain about drug companies charging astronomical prices for their product!  Or, is there a double standard? Okay to gouge "rich" airplane owners, but not "poor" sick people?

[Tim Jodice]

7 hours ago, MikeOH said:

Hmm, generally speaking I agree with market pricing.  To me, however, there are ethical limits; at some point we are entering the realm of price gouging.  Which I think is what is behind complaints about markups.  For all the reasons stated I have no problem paying a reasonable markups

How do you know what price gouging is?

What is a reasonable markups? Are you the one that should decide what it is?

I personally thought that $8 for popcorn at the movies is a bit much until I found out that movie theaters don't make much money from the movie tickets almost all of there money comes from food and drinks.

The guy who lives in Dale County, Alabama will likely have a different opinion of price gouging than the guy who lives in Honolulu, Hawaii. 

Most GA pilots don't particularly care for Signature flight support. Boston is a great example. I landed there about 5 months ago for 2 days and 33 gallons of gas it was $483. Thats price gouging right? I didn't think so, I got exceptional service and it is in Boston where a small apartment starts at $2300 a month.

My favorite is naturally in the automotive industry. Someone comes in to a specialty shop for a problem that regular shops can't figure out. Having a lot of specialty equipment and experience the specialty shop figured out in a short amount of time. The customer thinks that it costs to much because it didn't take long to fix it. The equipment isn't cheap, the support/license the goes with it isn't cheap and the experienced technician that figured it out fast definitely is nowhere near minimum wage. 

WHAT SERVICE COSTS LESS TO DO QUICKER!?!? Emergency service by a plumber? Nope. Red label UPS shipping? Nope.

An ice cold 20 ounce bottle of water that is right in front of you for instant satisfaction yet costs more than a gallon of gas? Gouging? Maybe. Hot summer day you are very thirsty it might be the most satisfying thing you can do with your pants on. 

Rant done

 

[Missile=Awesome]

11 hours ago, MikeOH said:

Hmm, generally speaking I agree with market pricing.  To me, however, there are ethical limits; at some point we are entering the realm of price gouging.  Which I think is what is behind complaints about markups.  For all the reasons stated I have no problem paying a reasonable markups; at some point, though, it is NOT in the eye of the beholder.

If you are okay with Bo owners paying astronomical prices for magnesium ruddervators, then don't complain about drug companies charging astronomical prices for their product!  Or, is there a double standard? Okay to gouge "rich" airplane owners, but not "poor" sick people?

Reoccurring theme...

[Jonny]

Hi Folks - To those asking if Mooney is still a "Thing" I can assure you that we are unequivocally a "Thing." In fact, I would venture to say we are more than a "Thing," we are like a "Super Thing!"

You'll continue to get your parts, you'll get customer service and I'm hopeful you'll get new planes one day. We're working on it and we're getting there. I'm running the place so I can say all this with confidence and I'm hopeful that in the near future, we'll graduate from being a "Thing" to being "An aviation company you can be proud of again!"

Safe flying! More good things to come!

Jonny

 

[MooneyMitch]

11 minutes ago, Jonny said:

Hi Folks - To those asking if Mooney is still a "Thing" I can assure you that we are unequivocally a "Thing." In fact, I would venture to say we are more than a "Thing," we are like a "Super Thing!"

You'll continue to get your parts, you'll get customer service and I'm hopeful you'll get new planes one day. We're working on it and we're getting there. I'm running the place so I can say all this with confidence and I'm hopeful that in the near future, we'll graduate from being a "Thing" to being "An aviation company you can be proud of again!"

Safe flying! More good things to come!

Jonny

 

Go “Super Thing”..... go Mooney Dreamteam!!! 

[carusoam]

Great update..!

Way to go Jonny ‘Super Thing’ Pollack!

Community travel... taxi, Uber, bus, trains, subways... commercial flying...

all under review during the COVID Pandemic...

Ford is selling more trucks and SUVs than ever...

GA flying is getting a lot of attention as an alternative to these modes of trans...

Let us/MS know how we can help....

 

Best regards,

-a-

[MikeOH]

15 hours ago, Tim Jodice said:

How do you know what price gouging is?

What is a reasonable markups? Are you the one that should decide what it is?

When it becomes obscene, and I think Justice Potter Stewart had that figured out decades ago.  I guess you're smarter than he was, though.

Yes, each individual is who should decide; I know it when I see it.

Remember this little debate when someone close to you needs an expensive drug to stay alive and they don't have the money to pay for it.  Just don't complain about how it couldn't possibly cost anywhere near that much to manufacture, even amortizing millions in R&D into the price.  Suddenly, "market price" will lose its luster.

Rant over

[Nick Pilotte]

@JonnyMake Mooney Great Again!!!

Put that on a hat!

@Tim Jodice I completely agree with your sentiments.  Former tech and independent shop guy here.  I specialized in some of the rarer European cars and I was of the same mentality.  It wasn’t worth tarnishing my reputation installing parts of unknown quality.  

 

[Missile=Awesome]

2 hours ago, MikeOH said:

When it becomes obscene, and I think Justice Potter Stewart had that figured out decades ago.  I guess you're smarter than he was, though.

Yes, each individual is who should decide; I know it when I see it.

Remember this little debate when someone close to you needs an expensive drug to stay alive and they don't have the money to pay for it.  Just don't complain about how it couldn't possibly cost anywhere near that much to manufacture, even amortizing millions in R&D into the price.  Suddenly, "market price" will lose its luster.

Rant over

The smiley face makes it all “Oh shucks” wasn’t my rant fun?  Yuckity yuck yuck...Not a debate.  No minds were changed here...next.

[MikeOH]

11 minutes ago, Missile=Awesome said:

  No minds were changed here...next.

Not surprised that you think you can read minds. (No smiley face)

[Missile=Awesome]

Perhaps someone who pondered the prose of “Mike” smiley face or not could reply that he changed their mind.

Thanks in advance.  Happy to be wrong in my all encompassing assessment of the “debate”.

Here is a general question for Californian’s that have solved the mystery: Why are there so many rich humans, many with airplanes, that live in California, so vehemently opposed to Capitalism?

[MikeOH]

48 minutes ago, Missile=Awesome said:

Perhaps someone who pondered the prose of “Mike” smiley face or not could reply that he changed their mind.

Thanks in advance.  Happy to be wrong in my all encompassing assessment of the “debate”.

Here is a general question for Californian’s that have solved the mystery: Why are there so many rich humans, many with airplanes, that live in California, so vehemently opposed to Capitalism?

Never said I was against capitalism; best system going.

But, I'm not so naive to believe it's perfect; greed and avarice exist, and price gouging does happen.  Sorry, but it annoys me that some individuals think that's okay (Not a smiley face)

[Missile=Awesome]

8 hours ago, MikeOH said:

Never said I was against capitalism; best system going.

But, I'm not so naive to believe it's perfect; greed and avarice exist, and price gouging does happen.  Sorry, but it annoys me that some individuals think that's okay (Not a smiley face)

Enough.  Stop talking in generalities.  Stop sowing fear.  Stop making statements referring to me that I didn’t make. (Example-Price gouging.  I never said it never happens and that it is O.K.). Pretty sure Mike is inappropriate.  Chip works a lot better.  Supply and demand is a system that works.  It creates competition for a better product and service and more competitive prices.  Win Win for consumers as better products at lower prices is the result.

Or just RRRRRRRRRrrrrrrrrrrrrreeeeeeeeeeeee!

[chinoguym20]

Very pleased to hear there’s a plan to Make Mooney Great Again and it sounds like Jonny is on the right path by focusing on where the money is (and it’s not in new M20’s). Besides, I doubt the vast majority of us MS’ers or the current market would buy new.  Let’s hope there’s some other aircraft related profitable work can be brought to Kerrville and keep the factory open.

Go Mooney!

[aviatoreb]

50 minutes ago, chinoguym20 said:

Very pleased to hear there’s a plan to Make Mooney Great Again and it sounds like Jonny is on the right path by focusing on where the money is (and it’s not in new M20’s). Besides, I doubt the vast majority of us MS’ers or the current market would buy new.  Let’s hope there’s some other aircraft related profitable work can be brought to Kerrville and keep the factory open.

Go Mooney!

Its great if our Pheonix will rise again!

I would say that you are right, that most of us may not buy a new mooney for price and budget reasons.  But I would if I could.  I bet of the customer base who do buy new Mooneys, a rather large fraction may come from us the mooneyspacers who are mooney enthusiasts.  So we are definitely a good target group to mine for customer base.  (Not to mention that many of us our customers in terms of buying parts of course).

[Missile=Awesome]

17 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

Its great if our Pheonix will rise again!

I would say that you are right, that most of us may not buy a new mooney for price and budget reasons.  But I would if I could.  I bet of the customer base who do buy new Mooneys, a rather large fraction may come from us the mooneyspacers who are mooney enthusiasts.  So we are definitely a good target group to mine for customer base.  (Not to mention that many of us our customers in terms of buying parts of course).

I asked and didn’t receive much of an answer regarding what “Mooney specific parts” are in demand from Mooney owners?  The one “new Mooney buyer” had negative things to say on this thread regarding after the sale customer service.  I am going to question your assessment that new sales of Mooney airframes will come from Mooneyspace enthusiasts.  I hope I am wrong, but I just don’t see a lot of $750k+ buyers here...

I believe Mooney sub-contracts interiors.  Paint?  Engines are sourced.  Again, what wear parts will Mooney manufacture or have manufactured that will keep the lights on?  The “new cowl mod” is being touted.  I would think a mid-body cowl would sell MORE as there are more aged fleet mid-bodies that could use a lighter updated cowl.  Just competition for Sabre...

My upgrades have been avionics.  Maintenance has been sealant for tanks, tires, engine...NOT Mooney specific.  

Can Mooney compete with Cirrus with more useful load and a better gear system and ability to put a brs on board?  Time will tell.

I am rooting for Mooney.  

They want to build planes

[Missile=Awesome]

Maybe an electric engine (future tech) is the only REAL answer.  Carbon is on the way out so I have heard.  Winners are being picked in the manufactured crisis world we are living in.  Choose wisely.  The future is now...

Or is it?

[Missile=Awesome]

4 minutes ago, Missile=Awesome said:

Maybe an electric engine (future tech) is the only REAL answer.  Carbon is on the way out so I have heard.  Winners are being picked in the manufactured crisis world we are living in.  Choose wisely.  The future is now...

Or is it?

Motor...ICE is so yesterday.

[aviatoreb]

12 minutes ago, Missile=Awesome said:

I asked and didn’t receive much of an answer regarding what “Mooney specific parts” are in demand from Mooney owners?  The one “new Mooney buyer” had negative things to say on this thread regarding after the sale customer service.  I am going to question your assessment that new sales of Mooney airframes will come from Mooneyspace enthusiasts.  I hope I am wrong, but I just don’t see a lot of $750k+ buyers here...

I believe Mooney sub-contracts interiors.  Paint?  Engines are sourced.  Again, what wear parts will Mooney manufacture or have manufactured that will keep the lights on?  The “new cowl mod” is being touted.  I would think a mid-body cowl would sell MORE as there are more aged fleet mid-bodies that could use a lighter updated cowl.  Just competition for Sabre...

My upgrades have been avionics.  Maintenance has been sealant for tanks, tires, engine...NOT Mooney specific.  

Can Mooney compete with Cirrus with more useful load and a better gear system and ability to put a brs on board?  Time will tell.

I am rooting for Mooney.  

They want to build planes

I don't know. I am just speaking from a sense of gut feeling.  But I would think that at least some of us would buy a new Mooney if we could.  I would.  Well, truthfully if I had just 750k then I would buy a used turbo prop.  But if I had a turbo prop, and more money to burn, so if I were very rich, then I would love to have a new Mooney also.  So I guess I am not a great customer, right now...someday?  Anyway seems like I stick to my statement.  We are all Mooney enthusiasts, so at least some of us might be new customers.

I personally have purchased parts from Mooney.  Not because I wanted to (no one wants to need to fix their airplane) but because i had to. And I was very glad they were there to provide parts.

[Tim Jodice]

I am super excited about what they are Doing at Mooney, taking care of the existing fleet. If they do fix the landing gear to up the gross weight to allow them to have a 11-1,200 pound useful with all the options that new airplane owners want I would buy a brand new one in 5-6 years.

I want Mooney to give Cirrus some competition. No one else seems to know how. I know its not easy but with guys running Mooney who are immersed in general avation like the Klapmeier brothers are I think the guys at Mooney have what it takes.

Go Mooney!

[mike_elliott]

On 10/27/2020 at 5:41 PM, M20Doc said:

There is an MSRP on Mooney parts, in the absence of a discount we add a margin like any business should.  
 

Clarence

But the MSRP must stand for "Mooney Service Rep pricelist" not Retail suggested price list, since only service centers are offered this price and are free to mark it up or give it away as they see fit. This  is a good strategy, as it puts the Service center in charge of their own profitability. If you cant make enough on parts, mark them up more and let your COV on service justify your ability to do so. I wouldnt have, as most here dont, any objection for a class shop to order the part at a TO AUTHORIZED SERVICE CENTERS ONLY price and marking it up to what the shop owner feels is fair and needs to exist. We 'da people" get the final vote on whether this markup is acceptable, just have to ask not let yourself get blindsided (only once, however)

Everyone has a say, the factory, the service center and the victi...errr....customer

 

 

[mike_elliott]

On 10/30/2020 at 11:29 AM, Missile=Awesome said:

Maybe an electric engine (future tech) is the only REAL answer.  Carbon is on the way out so I have heard.  Winners are being picked in the manufactured crisis world we are living in.  Choose wisely.  The future is now...

Or is it?

Will need the battery tech to up the specs above 400 whr/KG to make it a viable

stay tuned....