Not the worst news ever, but close

[Shadrach]

@Parker_Woodruff

Parker, can you speak to the "other pilot" coverage.  Mine requires 750TT, 25 TIT and 150 Retract.  There is no exclusion based on age. So Don can  fly my plane SIC with complete coverage but not his own?

 

 

[Parker_Woodruff]

3 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

@Parker_Woodruff

Parker, can you speak to the "other pilot" coverage.  Mine requires 750TT, 25 TIT and 150 Retract.  There is no exclusion based on age. So Don can  fly my plane SIC with complete coverage but not his own?

 

 

Well you would have primary coverage and you would be covered while he flies your plane.  That's not to say the insurance company couldn't subrogate - that depends on the policy language.  Most insurance company applications ask if anyone else has regular access to the aircraft...they want to know about general exposure.  During the underwriting period (typically 60 days or so from the policy inception) they can add exclusions or cancel the policy for material reasons.  This is why they're adamant about getting an application within 30 days.

[DonMuncy]

Thanks for all the commiseration, etc.

Time is marching on, and I am digging hard into my (not very good) options.

My thinking is what the result would be, if I bought a liability only policy; 

If i did one of those really really bad crashes, I would probably be dead, and my kids would just get a little less from my estate.

If I did a gear-up, it would come out of my pocket and, although it would be hard to take financially, I could survive it.

If I had one of the "middle of the road accidents" like an off field landing that totalled the plane, but I survived, I would be stuck with some horrendous PITA things like paying to haul the wreckage away, and arranging to scrap the useable parts. But I would at least, presumably, have some valuable parts to offset the loss. Anyone have any ideas about the average value likely to be recoverable.

Maybe Parker could offer some insight as to what insurance carriers typically receive in salvage.  

[McMooney]

Hard seeing how this isn't some of the worst news ever.

Kinda hard to complain about a 182 though 8). how bout a cessna 400, it's mooney-ish.

[laytonl]

Don, this is tough, but it is not like losing your medical;  You can still fly. An Rv-8 would be fun and fast.  Lee

[carusoam]

1) We used to sit around on rainy days and discuss what life would be like when the Class III medical couldn’t be passed...

2) That happened for a lot of people by age 65...

3) Many MSers at 65, have finally reached a point in their lives to go buy their first Mooney...

4) Fortunately AOPA helped with the creation of Basic Med... So now most can be medically sound(?) for quite a few more years...

5) Oddly... the system has moved up the ladder, but failed again...

6) Mr. Muncy hasn’t failed a medical...

7) Mr. Muncy hasn’t had a slew of GU accidents...

8) What are the insurance companies afraid of..?

• Memory loss exacerbated accidents... aka things that happen when the old guy’s memory gets overloaded like GU landings...
• Cognitive speed challenges... aka things that happen when the old guy’s thought processes have slowed down... like busting through the traffic pattern at Mooney speeds and struggling to get back into line...
• Strength challenges... climbing up on the wing and getting seated... or fighting a failed trim Situation...

9) Remember... Getting old doesn’t happen to everyone... And it affects everyone differently... and it doesn’t come with a best when used by date conveniently laser etched onto it....

10) Also remember... For all of these strength deficiencies... there are remedies...

11) If we can’t get insurance to the level we are familiar with... can we step back a level and limit some of the coverage ?

• Only close family and friends...
• No more than 1 or 2 passengers
• High deductibles

12) 82 years of not giving in... what is going to be different this time?

13) Rally the troops!  

• It started with calling the insurance companies...
• Next on the list is AOPA...

The really good news... It is much harder to think through this challenge after you wake up in the hospital...

Fortunately, there was no hospital stay involved...

14) For a man that is physically healthy, and cognitively healthy, there isn’t a valid reason to give up flying and driving... Or cooking dinner...

Might want to show the insurance company your gym membership, your physical trainer’s picture, and your last MAPA training certificate...

Or go get your tail wheel or glider rating.... 

15) the punishment doesn’t fit the crime... everyone gets to have one GU landing...
 

16) I’m convinced there is still a solution out there... it just hasn’t presented itself yet...
 

MSers seem to get into their 80s generally and surprisingly often...  we don’t mention age much... but few(?) have reported being in their 90s...

Keep the discussion going... if we are fortunate, we run into these kinds of challenges over time... 

PP thoughts only, I may have gotten old before my time...

Best regards,

-a-

[Hank]

How can this action not fit the classification of Age Discrimination? Call AARP, too!

Edited October 1, 2020 by Hank

[whiskytango]

Don - Really sorry to hear this.  I wish there was a way to get insurers to say if there is a specific type of potential loss that drives the decision to deny coverage to older pilots.  Let's say that it is gear-up landings.  If that were the case, you could get hull coverage that doesn't include GU landings or comes with a very high deductible for that type of loss only.  I just find it hard to believe that you were an acceptable risk last year but now you are uninsurable, with no intervening loss, FAA certificate action or other event to explain this change.

[BKlott]

Is Ground Coverage available to protect the airplane while it is not being used? In addition to your Liability coverage, that would protect your airplane most of the time and further reduce your exposure.

[steingar]

It's been a long term goal to join the UFO's, but I hope I don't have to give up my Mooney to do it.

[DonMuncy]

I had Parker ask if I could get a policy with an exclusion for gear-ups. He said they don't do that either. It would seem to me that would be the only reason for not insuring in a retractable.

Just now, steingar said:

It's been a long term goal to join the UFO's, but I hope I don't have to give up my Mooney to do it.

I had already joined the UFOs before I got this news.

[steingar]

5 minutes ago, DonMuncy said:

I had Parker ask if I could get a policy with an exclusion for gear-ups. He said they don't do that either. It would seem to me that would be the only reason for not insuring in a retractable.

I had already joined the UFOs before I got this news.

Yup.  Like I said, no one in my family has ever made it to that age being able to pilot and aircraft.  Most couldn't even pilot a wheelchair.

[DonMuncy]

1 minute ago, steingar said:

Yup.  Like I said, no one in my family has ever made it to that age being able to pilot and aircraft.  Most couldn't even pilot a wheelchair.

Instead of bitchin about my situation, I ought to be glad I am in good heath and I got to fly a Mooney as long as I did. But still ....

[MooneyMitch]

42 minutes ago, DonMuncy said:

Instead of bitchin about my situation, I ought to be glad I am in good heath and I got to fly a Mooney as long as I did. But still ....

It’s what I call first world problems.  Yes, we’re all most fortunate to be flying, or have been flying these wonderful airplanes.   Still, it’s tough to digest when the time comes.

[mike_elliott]

Don, I am sorry to hear this. If Alice or I can help, please let me know. 

[DonMuncy]

Thanks Mike.

[Parker_Woodruff]

15 hours ago, DonMuncy said:

 

If I had one of the "middle of the road accidents" like an off field landing that totalled the plane, but I survived, I would be stuck with some horrendous PITA things like paying to haul the wreckage away, and arranging to scrap the useable parts. But I would at least, presumably, have some valuable parts to offset the loss. Anyone have any ideas about the average value likely to be recoverable.

Maybe Parker could offer some insight as to what insurance carriers typically receive in salvage.  

Don, this bold point right here is exactly why I shy away from liability only policies.

It's a wide range.  For a plane like yours, my gut says the minimum would be avionics value (a really bad accident), and the maximum might be $45K if the circumstances were just right and the plane was just barely totaled.

[Parker_Woodruff]

13 hours ago, whiskytango said:

  I just find it hard to believe that you were an acceptable risk last year but now you are uninsurable, with no intervening loss, FAA certificate action or other event to explain this change.

I suspect some unfortunate insurance strategy upon renewal last time around...or at least some things weren't disclosed (wasn't me, I promise!)

[Nick Pilotte]

I am not a lawyer, but since this isn’t an insurance declining all coverage, there isn’t likely an ageism issue to raise with anyone. Now if they flat out refused coverage, I think.... there would be a chance. 

[Hank]

3 hours ago, DonMuncy said:

Instead of bitchin about my situation, I ought to be glad I am in good heath and I got to fly a Mooney as long as I did. But still ....

The message is bad, but will eventually come to all of us--Hang up the headset, hand over the keys, ride in the wheelchair . . . .

But sometimes the way the message is delivered makes a bitter pill easier to swallow. This event did not do that!

[Andy95W]

Just a thought, Don, but you could likely sell your 231 and buy a nice M20C/E with electric gear.  Put the balance of the money in the bank which would allow you to basically self-insure.  Get liability only.

Either way, sorry you have to go through this.  Good luck.

[Yetti]

Grumble. This is sucky.

[vorlon1]

Time to purchase a liability only policy. The only thing that will change is how many times you check the gear on final. 

[Parker_Woodruff]

12 hours ago, vorlon1 said:

Time to purchase a liability only policy. The only thing that will change is how many times you check the gear on final. 

I get what you're saying.  However...

I have serviced hundreds of clients in my two stints as an agent.  I've serviced dozens of claims.  I think there has only been one gear up in the mix and a whole bunch of completely random (and expensive) claims that couldn't have been foreseen.  Hull coverage is the best value in aviation, IMO.

I've flown with Don many times and I'm confident he's the last person in the world who will forget the gear. 

[DonMuncy]

Well guys, I have made my decision. I am going to self-insure with only liability coverage. As I told Parker, if I am willing to accept the risk of dying from flying, accepting the risk of the loss of an asset is a reasonable idea. (I know, I know, the percent risk is much higher of one, but the ultimate result of the other is much more serious.)