Useful load, how important is it to you?

[Tim Jodice]

Before I had the privilege in 2008 to fly a new (2007) Ovation I never under stood why useful loads were so low in new airplanes. I never thought a piston airplane could be so quiet and comfortable.

I end up going to the other end and buying a 55 Bonanza and as expected the useful load was good, mostly comfortable but loud. next was a 61 baron that has a great useful load but also loud and not so comfortable. While I had the Baron a friend let me fly his F model frequently and it to has a good (1018) useful load but was loud and the comfort was better after about 2 hours in the air I would need to move around to be comfortable

The 201 I have now has what most would consider a poor useful load of 760. it is Quiet, Comfortable,  very well equipped relative the aircraft I had first hand flying. Except for a 430W and a MX20 it had the original avionics from 1985.  To have a airplane that is so tight that even when it is -20 at altitude wearing a t shirt I would still dial the heat back is amazing to me. 

I do fantasize about going on a weight lost plan (me and the airplane). According to the avionics shop by redoing the panel all electric and eliminate all of the boxes in the tail I could loose about 75-80 pounds. composite prop, light weight starter and alternator I could loose over a 100 pounds total!

All of that said I love it the way it is now and would give up very little to gain useful load. Why? I found if I am honest with my self and dismiss the "well I might" thoughts, 760 pounds does my mission without compromise 93% of the time. There will always be the once in a while flights that I say to myself "if I only bought the Pilatus PC-12 I could do this nonstop".

Looking back how many times are you unable to accomplish you mission because you can't carry it?

[Hank]

6 minutes ago, airtim said:

Looking back how many times are you unable to accomplish you mission because you can't carry it?

The Useful Load in my C is 970 lb., and so far I've been limited only by cubic footage. But I rarely fly with boxes of books, or at least not with many boxes of books. The 2nd photo isn't books, it was hurricane relief supplies, where I ran out of cube even after unpacking boxes and tucking things everywhere, managed less than 400 lb.

Edited May 1, 2020 by Hank

[MIm20c]

760 is really getting down there. That personally would be an issue for me and the flying I want to do in the future. If you’re flying around alone all the time it won’t me much of a difference.  I’d say the plane could benefit from a weight loss program. 

[Tim Jodice]

Just now, MIm20c said:

760 is really getting down there. That personally would be an issue for me and the flying I want to do in the future. If you’re flying around alone all the time it won’t me much of a difference.  I’d say the plane could benefit from a weight loss program. 

This is currently my normal load: about 250 pounds in gas 185 for me 200 for my passenger 60 TKS fluid and 50 +/- in parts. That said I completely agree about weight loss, I should loose 15 pounds. If I find that in two years or so that this airplane continues to be the right tool for the job and that at that time I am running in to a weight issue then game on! 

[Oldguy]

Full fuel UL for me is 510, and my regular copilot and I together have 150 or so left over. When we carry 4 of us for a lunch or dinner flight, with 3 hours of fuel and legal reserves, we are still under GW.

For me, my magic number on UL would be 900+ in my J. Being as I am 4 lbs. away from that, I feel sure shaving off a few pounds with the interior overhaul will get me there.

[carusoam]

Priorities for (my) personal transport, not a work machine...

1) Speed

2) Efficiency

3) Safety

4) WAAS

5) O₂

6) UL with two aboard...

7) UL with four aboard...

8) AC

9)  Fuel tank and bladder size matching can be important...

10) FIKI

11) Fancy paint and interior... more important for a forever-plane...

12) A turbo normalizer or two... with matching intercoolers....

13) Gobs of extra EHP (excess horse power) for better short field performance...

 

Staying under MGToW is genuinely important... predictable performance is a key to safely loading your plane and be flying above the trees at the end of the runway...

The ability to fly for five hours, and cover the East Coast from NJ to Florida...  starts to run into discomfort that make’s Piloto’s paraphernalia look interesting... 

How many hours can you cram a family of four in any vehicle, and have them look forward to the next ride..?  Even the Expedition needs to stop along the road...

By the time you prioritize the equipment list for your forever-plane.... you realize how important the UL is... as FIKI, AC, and O2 start to eat into the margin needed for the back seaters....

Go Mooney!

PP thoughts only, not a CFI...

Best regards,

-a-

[RLCarter]

884# UL, 572 pounds of butts or baggage full of fuel..would hurt my feelings if there was another 100# UL

[Shadrach]

I use my F model to shuttle my Family of four.  Our kids are small (2 and 4) but with 1056lb (down from 1060lb on the last W&B) we likely won't out grow it for our mission.  Your J must be extremely well equipped given your total UL is about the same as my payload with reserves for a 600nm trip. We usually stick to 450nm legs or less which means 800lbs of people and bags is no problem.  Your plane would limit us to 400NM trips. Still usable, but way less flexible. I like to carry more than FAA mandated reserves.

 

Edited May 2, 2020 by Shadrach

[Tim Jodice]

35 minutes ago, carusoam said:

Priorities for (my) personal transport, not a work machine...

1) Speed

2) Efficiency

3) Safety

4) WAAS

5) O₂

6) UL with two aboard...

7) UL with four aboard...

8) AC

9)  Fuel tank and bladder size matching can be important...

10) FIKI

11) Fancy paint and interior... more important for a forever-plane...

12) A turbo normalizer or two... with matching intercoolers....

13) Gobs of extra EHP (excess horse power) for better short field performance...

 

Staying under MGToW is genuinely important... predictable performance is a key to safely loading your plane and be flying above the trees at the end of the runway...

The ability to fly for five hours, and cover the East Coast from NJ to Florida...  starts to run into discomfort that make’s Piloto’s paraphernalia look interesting... 

How many hours can you cram a family of four in any vehicle, and have them look forward to the next ride..?  Even the Expedition needs to stop along the road...

By the time you prioritize the equipment list for your forever-plane.... you realize how important the UL is... as FIKI, AC, and O2 start to eat into the margin needed for the back seaters....

Go Mooney!

PP thoughts only, not a CFI...

Best regards,

-a-

 

Modified to me.

Priorities for (my) personal transport, not a work machine...

1) Efficiency, is the main reason I bought a Mooney

2) UL with two aboard..., this is every flight i did the math to make sure it worked

3) FIKI, to fly in new England regularly I think it is a must.

4) WAAS, done

5) Maintenance, down time and cost. Like many I asked my mechanic for advice and he said for what your doing a Lycoming powered Mooney is hard to beat, buy the newest one you can afford.

6)Safety, definitely important but it did not factor in my purchase because it seems the machine fails much less than the pilot.

7) Speed, the trip is only 120 miles as I learned first hand flying the Baron at 190 against the Mooney at 150 is on average is only 10 min longer. 

8) AC if i clean it up and loose a lot of weight i would consider having it

9)  UL with four aboard..., currently if there were 4 people one of them is 11 (80) and the other is 16 (110) and the wife (155) doable but not practicable

10) Fuel tank and bladder size matching can be important..., it will be rare (dare I say never) for me to need more that the stock.

11) O_2,  not necessary, I don't fly high enough regularly to need it. the rare times that I do I use a portable system

12) Fancy paint and interior... more important for a forever-plane... 

[Tim Jodice]

5 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

I use my F model to shuttle my Family of four.  Our kids are small (2 and 4) but with 1056lb (down from 1060lb on the last W&B) we likely won't out grow it for our mission.  Your J must be extremely well equipped given your total UL is about the same as my payload with reserves for a 600nm trip. We usually stick to 450nm legs or less which means 800lbs of people and bags is no problem.  I your plane would limit us to 400NM trips. Still usable, but way less flexible. I like to carry more than FAA mandated reserves.

 

Most of the avionics is original to the airplane from 85 so lost of stuff with remote boxes in the tail wiring and the vacuum system. the backup electric vacuum pump is 13 pounds all by it self. the TKS is 100 pounds with a full tank. It is a fatty for sure. 

[Ibra]

I think speed & efficiency does some uptick on useful load when flying a fixed distance flying, you don't need to carry lot of fuel just to carry you over slowly (used to fly C182 & Arrow) but then you are left doing some maths, I have 870lbs UL in M20J, it always worked for me: when 4pob as 2h flying with 4h endurance and when 2pob go full fuel, something slightly under @Oldguy numbers 

Now, I have done 3000nm with 4pob and 9 fuel stops roughly after each 400nm, that was an exceptional oneoff masochistic experience, so I am not trying that again 

[Carbon8]

87J with a UL of 933 after a scale weigh 6 weeeks ago, issue I run into is without bladders and being a wet wing I don’t like putting the plane away without full fuel. So that’s 549# available. I’m also a bigger guy 250# and about 50# of flight bag and gear I carry leaves 249# left. Which fits 95% of my missions are 1 or 2 people. 
 

Killer is my SN is only a couple shy away from the GW increase to 2900# so that blew but I have never had a load issue. 
 

On the other hand I knew an ovation with that by the time it was full of TKS and fuel it had a 200# load. That would be useless and I don’t think that plane ever flew under GW to be honest. 

Edited May 1, 2020 by Carbon8

[aviatoreb]

Useful load is completely un important on those flights where I don't need to carry much for very far.  

On other would be flights that I cannot do because it requires more useful load than I have, it is very important.

Edited May 2, 2020 by aviatoreb

[aviatoreb]

24 minutes ago, Ibra said:

I think speed & efficiency does some uptick on useful load when flying a fixed distance flying, you don't need to carry lot of fuel just to carry you over slowly (used to fly C182 & Arrow) but then you are left doing some maths, I have 870lbs UL in M20J, it always worked for me: when 4pob as 2h flying with 4h endurance and when 2pob go full fuel, something slightly under @Oldguy numbers 

Now, I have done 3000nm with 4pob and 9 fuel stops roughly after each 400nm, that was an exceptional oneoff masochistic experience, so I am not trying that again 

 

Good thing everyone in that picture looks skinny.

Nonetheless the only pictures I ever had of 4 people flying in my plane, are from when my kids were small, and it was tiny people in the back.

[Tim Jodice]

Just now, Carbon8 said:

87J with a UL of 933 after a scale weigh 6 weeeks ago, issue I run into is without bladders and being a wet wing I don’t like putting the plane away without full fuel. So that’s 549# available. I’m also a bigger guy 250# and about 50# of flight bag and gear I carry leaves 249# left. Which fits 95% of my missions are 1 or 2 people. 
 

Killer is my SN is only a couple shy away from the GW increase to 2900# so that blew but I have never had a load issue. 
 

On the other hand I knew an ovation with That by the time it was full of TKS and fuel it had a 200# load. That would be useless and I don’t think that plane ever flew under GW to be honest. 

I will be the first to say you are the norm I am the exception, most of my friends do what you do. i i don't put the plane away with full fuel just so that it is full. An example of why i don't is i might want to go for quick flight with friends.... but I can't because I have enough gas to go to Charlotte NC from Boston.

A pet peeve I have is that most people I know or have simply had a conversation with look at an airplanes useful load with full tanks. Two airplanes that I think demonstrate that it makes the airplanes utility look horrible. A Mooney Ovation with 102 gal Monroy tanks or most post 1984 Beechcraft Barons with 194 gallons. even is they are minimally equipped they wont have much useful load left with them full. Reading on here most people use about 13-14 GPH for an Ovation. Using 14 GPH that is 6 hours in the air with an hour reserve a Baron at 28GPH is also about 6 hours in the air plus an hour reserve. Who does that all the time? Most people I know have a hard time sitting in an airplane for more than 3-4 hours, much less 6 hours.

[Carbon8]

1 minute ago, airtim said:

I will be the first to say you are the norm I am the exception, most of my friends do what you do. i i don't put the plane away with full fuel just so that it is full. An example of why i don't is i might want to go for quick flight with friends.... but I can't because I have enough gas to go to Charlotte NC from Boston.

A pet peeve I have is that most people I know or have simply had a conversation with look at an airplanes useful load with full tanks. Two airplanes that I think demonstrate that it makes the airplanes utility look horrible. A Mooney Ovation with 102 gal Monroy tanks or most post 1984 Beechcraft Barons with 194 gallons. even is they are minimally equipped they wont have much useful load left with them full. Reading on here most people use about 13-14 GPH for an Ovation. Using 14 GPH that is 6 hours in the air with an hour reserve a Baron at 28GPH is also about 6 hours in the air plus an hour reserve. Who does that all the time? Most people I know have a hard time sitting in an airplane for more than 3-4 hours, much less 6 hours.

I agree 3-4 is my limit if I stop for fuel, unless I can make it to my destination in 5 then I will choose not to stop for fuel. But if I have to stop no matter what I will split 4 hour intervals 

[Ibra]

2 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

Nonetheless the only pictures I ever had of 4 people flying in my plane, are from when my kids were small, and it was tiny people in the back.

True, the reality of my Mooney flying mainly 2sob touring missions (plus 2 kids & some bags) and few burger runs with 4sob adults from time to time (but no bags), for long touring with 4 adults & bags, I think one may have to go for single 6-seaters or twins, even other 4 seaters that can carry 4sob either don’t fly faster or drink too much gph like twins...

It has nothing with age as we do take old kids 

 

 

Edited May 1, 2020 by Ibra

[ArtVandelay]

I’m close to 1000lbs in my 78J, I would itemized your avionics, etc to see where the weight is going, then planned accordingly if you choose to upgrade your plane.

[Danb]

UL in my Bravo little over 1000, this is from hurricane mission, I put in for 500 lb, 50 gal and me had 50 left. 500+ fuel 300 + me 145== 945, hot summer day the Bravo still jumps off the runway. I wish I had 1200 lb UL but would need a different make, not gonna happen.

[Hank]

46 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

Nonetheless the only pictures I ever had of 4 people flying in my plane, are from when my kids were small, and it was tiny people in the back.

What??????

[Tim Jodice]

14 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

I’m close to 1000lbs in my 78J, I would itemized your avionics, etc to see where the weight is going, then planned accordingly if you choose to upgrade your plane.

What is your opinion? If you were to update the panel what would you do?

[Tim Jodice]

5:00 on Friday all is well!

[Ibra]

Some may know better but the big beast is the legacy autopilot (or remove RHS yoke and pedals )

[Tim Jodice]

It is a awesome day! I am drifting my own thread!

[carusoam]

Going all glass can get a second AI....

The finance administrator... will surely approve staying right side up all the time!

Ultimately, all glass can net a better a UL...

See if anyone recognizes where Tim is flying over...  

Best Regards,

-a-