Fatal Cirrus accident last night in Vegas

[cbarry]

9 hours ago, chrisk said:

Sad to hear.   I do fly at night, and sometimes near mountains.  I've landed at Colorado Springs many times at night.  I'd feel comfortable landing in Durango Colorado or Santa Fe.  All of those have plenty of flat space near the airports, and I know where the mountains are.  On the other hand, I will not go into Pagosa Springs Co. at night, as it has rising terrain on the north side of the airport.   That said, in class B, how many of us would have deviated from the controllers instructions?  I wonder if the pilot was watching the map turn yellow, then red,  then the crash.... all the time wonder when to deviate.

I agree.  Probably not many people will willfully deviate from controller’s instructions.  However, the point is to  trust but verify and  to be willing to deviate (aviate first...) if necessary to conduct a safe flight.  I have done this even though I was reluctant. It was on an IFR departure coming out of the Atlanta area.  A controller vectored me to join a departure directly toward fairly significant area of thunderstorms—approximately 20 miles away about 20-30 miles across. I asked for deviation and received “ 2MA standby.”  I continued on the vectored route for another 4 or 5 miles and asked again for deviation due to buildups...still “2MA standby.”  After about a minute (3+ miles) , while still in VMC, I contacted the controller, told him I was cancelling my IFR and I will be exiting his Class B.  He responded, “2MA say again.”  I replied with my original instruction and added if he needed me to copy down a phone number, I’m happy to do it .  He replied, “IFR cancellation received, maintain VFR cleared into Class B.”

Some will say that I was being difficult and he would given me deviation at some point.  Some might say that he wasn’t seeing  significant returns painted on his radar so he didn’t think deviation was necessary...My point is, I didn’t let that sequence of bad events take me out of the sky!  I broke the chain.

 

[alextstone]

8 hours ago, JohnB said:

 This also points out that at night, you need to be at or above the MEA for that entire sector, or at least the MOCA for the section before being comfortable with accepting vectors that a controller might give you.

Yes, indeed, @JohnB!  

[N201MKTurbo]

Back in '74 I was a junior in high school. My civics teacher was a pilot and had just got his instrument rating. He said he was flying to L.A. this weekend. 

I was working at a busy pizza parlor that was very popular with teenagers (probably because we were lax on carding people), I was working the cash register and we had a TV on the wall across the dining room. It was turned up loud because there was a rock concert on, so I could hear it just fine. They broke into the concert and announced that a Phoenix man was killed in a plane crash and then said my teachers name. He was my favorite.

It turns out that ATC vectored him into a mountain while IFR. He did nothing wrong.

So, saying that you should cross check ATC while VFR at night is incomplete, you should cross check them while IFR too.

[ilovecornfields]

2 hours ago, skykrawler said:

It's my policy to not rely on ATC to protect my life.  Watch this video and tell me what the priority was for controller.  Lemme get that atis...

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ma0JzO43Ig

Tower controller was great. I think it’s a tough situation for the NORCAL controller. The pilot has an urgent situation but he’s also IMC and can’t maintain his own obstruction clearance. Door popped open probably won’t kill anyone but smashing into a hill certainly will. I agree there were certainly some instances where there seemed to be a “failure to communicate” but they got the plane on the ground safely without hitting anything.

Would it have been better if she let him descend into a hill? Seems like she did her job. My personal experience is that often in an emergency people will focus on the wrong problem or correctly identify the immediate threat and promptly take the wrong corrective action. Just as we have “aviate, navigate, communicate” I’m sure the controllers have something similar to “don’t smash them into anything, point them toward the airport, find out how many people and fuel on board.”

When I had my door pop open I remember telling myself “fly the plane, don’t stall, put the gear down” about 20 times. There are plenty of stories of people turning this relatively benign problem into a fatal one so I don’t fault the controller for prioritizing not hitting anything.

Edited November 28, 2019 by ilovecornfields

[DXB]

5 hours ago, ilovecornfields said:

Tower controller was great. I think it’s a tough situation for the NORCAL controller. The pilot has an urgent situation but he’s also IMC and can’t maintain his own obstruction clearance. Door popped open probably won’t kill anyone but smashing into a hill certainly will. I agree there were certainly some instances where there seemed to be a “failure to communicate” but they got the plane on the ground safely without hitting anything.

Would it have been better if she let him descend into a hill? Seems like she did her job. My personal experience is that often in an emergency people will focus on the wrong problem or correctly identify the immediate threat and promptly take the wrong corrective action. Just as we have “aviate, navigate, communicate” I’m sure the controllers have something similar to “don’t smash them into anything, point them toward the airport, find out how many people and fuel on board.”

When I had my door pop open I remember telling myself “fly the plane, don’t stall, put the gear down” about 20 times. There are plenty of stories of people turning this relatively benign problem into a fatal one so I don’t fault the controller for prioritizing not hitting anything.

My own monday morning quarterback of this scenario is as follows: When the pilot of the emergency aircraft couldn't easily climb to the MVA, he would have been better using on board terrain avoidance tools on a moving map (as simple as foreflight + portable receiver if need be) to get back to the airport rather than continue to accept vectors. Agree the approach controller's handling sounds pretty reasonable. 

No question this tragedy reminds us all to be attentive to terrain avoidance using the excellent tools now available, whether it's VFR on a dark night or in IMC in the system.  I still gotta wonder what happened on the controller side that led to someone being assigned a heading and altitude that takes them into a mountainside within a class B airspace. That level of mistake seems pretty rare in this day and age.

[DXB]

6 hours ago, cbarry said:

I agree.  Probably not many people will willfully deviate from controller’s instructions.  However, the point is to  trust but verify and  to be willing to deviate (aviate first...) if necessary to conduct a safe flight.  I have done this even though I was reluctant. It was on an IFR departure coming out of the Atlanta area.  A controller vectored me to join a departure directly toward fairly significant area of thunderstorms—approximately 20 miles away about 20-30 miles across. I asked for deviation and received “ 2MA standby.”  I continued on the vectored route for another 4 or 5 miles and asked again for deviation due to buildups...still “2MA standby.”  After about a minute (3+ miles) , while still in VMC, I contacted the controller, told him I was cancelling my IFR and I will be exiting his Class B.  He responded, “2MA say again.”  I replied with my original instruction and added if he needed me to copy down a phone number, I’m happy to do it .  He replied, “IFR cancellation received, maintain VFR cleared into Class B.”

Some will say that I was being difficult and he would given me deviation at some point.  Some might say that he wasn’t seeing  significant returns painted on his radar so he didn’t think deviation was necessary...My point is, I didn’t let that sequence of bad events take me out of the sky!  I broke the chain.

 

I doubt any experienced person would say you were being difficult    Getting within 10 mi of a major T-storm is too close for me - best deviate while still VMC.  An approach I used in a similar situation was to "request immediate deviation to avoid convective activity" with deliberate strain in my voice, along with asking for exactly what I want - that worked.  My next step might have been exactly as you did.  But since I had no easy way out in VMC, it might actually been time for the "E" word instead.  

[Skates97]

Richard Simile at the Mooney Summit suggested the phrase "Do you wish me to declare an emergency?" 

[ilovecornfields]

Just to clarify my prior post:

 

[SantosDumont]

I've also had Nellis vector me into a confusing situation up there.  Sad that they just didn't give him the Nellis midfield Bravo transition, but at 6500 he was a little too high.  VGT is in a really difficult spot for night obstacle avoidance.  You can't go high because the Bravo is there and there are high mountain peaks immediately outside the Bravo with little room to maneuver.  
 
I don't fly at night anymore, mostly because I never want to put myself in this situation.  I'd rather wait until morning or ride a commercial operator.

[KLRDMD]

On 11/27/2019 at 5:28 PM, Bob_Belville said:

In 2001 the standard avionics in a SR22 was dual 430s. If the pilot had a moving map with terrain I don't suppose he'd have flown into a dark mountain. 

Plus an ARNAV MFD, Sandel electronic HSI and an S-Tec 55X autopilot were standard equipment. I used to own a 2001 SR22.

[irishpilot]

This crash hit close to home as I used to live in N Las Vegas and flew out of Nellis and KVGT. The terrain is mountainous and not to be taken lightly. Here's some reading material and my take on how to stay safe, especially when flying night VFR. First disclaimer, if you don't have your IFR ticket, I highly recommend as it makes you a better, more precise flyer and gives you more tools when weather/environment deteriorate. 

When flying VFR, it's good to know the VFR sectional, found on Foreflight, Garmin Pilot, or in print. In this case, the MEF for N Las Vegas is 7,500 and is not based on Gass peak, but a 7,128' peak NE. When on vectors VFR and in VMC pilots are still responsible for see and avoid and obstacle clearance (AIM 5-5-8). This is regardless of whether under ATC control or not. Pre-study of terrain is essential if knowingly going to fly VFR at night, especially in low illumination conditions (new or waning moon).

Already highlighted in this thread is cockpit situational awareness tools that pilots need to know. The Garmin 430 has terrain awareness as well as most portable GPS units. Additionally, any EFB (Foreflight or Garmin Pilot) has terrain avoidance features as well. 

Now, let's dive in a little deeper when switching to IFR. First, the numbers only get more conservative. The MOCA for the KVGT area is 14,100 due to Mt Charleston. East of the Vegas basin it's 10,300.

 

If on vectors for the ILS to KVGT, the MSA (minimum sector altitude) North of the field is 11,000 and that is based off of Hayford peak 26.8NM North of KVGT. Realize that the MSA seen on the approach plate is for emergency use only and does not guarantee navigational reception. 

Finally, if flying at night and under IFR, I recommend an approach plate study. Looking at the ILS 12L approach, one can see there is steep and rising mountainous terrain North and West of the Las Vegas metropolitan area. As a personal technique, when flying at night and in mountainous terrain, I file IFR and plan to fly the published approach to my destination. When I lived in Las Vegas this is what I primarily flew at night because of the terrain.

How do we learn from this tragedy. Hopefully discussion like this focuses us on the basics and we brush up on basic aeronautical knowledge as well as take time to ensure we know how to maximize the various tools we have inside the cockpit. Lastly, please read the AOPA Safety PDF attached as it is great at explaining obstacle avoidance and calculations.

Min Alt AOPA Paper.pdf

[thinwing]

Very good,thankyou

[carusoam]

Wow...

The differences in altitude are eye opening... the field is at 2k’, the nearby rocks are at 12k’...

Thanks for the additional detail, IP...

Best regards,

-a-

[Frank B.]

On 11/27/2019 at 5:29 PM, Hank said:

I got my license in WV. Not flying VFR after dark would have been very limiting. You just have to know where you are and what a good altitude is. When I did my Student XCs, day and night, the trainer had no GPS. 

I also got my license in WV and flew VFR at night all of the time. I had no sophisticated terrain warning system like I have now and to be honest with you I felt safer then than I do now. I had a Cincinnati sectional and that’s what I used for elevation and obstacle avoidance.    

PS: @Hank did you know that you can fly off of the north end of the old “Stoneking Int’l” field and go to KPKB without ever gaining a single foot in elevation? 

Frank

[Hank]

6 hours ago, Frank B. said:

I also got my license in WV and flew VFR at night all of the time. I had no sophisticated terrain warning system like I have now and to be honest with you I felt safer then than I do now. I had a Cincinnati sectional and that’s what I used for elevation and obstacle avoidance.    

PS: @Hank did you know that you can fly off of the north end of the old “Stoneking Int’l” field and go to KPKB without ever gaining a single foot in elevation? 

Frank

That's how I did it, too!

Went to PKB on my first Student XC (from KHTW). Must have crossed the River 6 or 8 times! Good restaurant there, too.  

[thinwing]

On 11/28/2019 at 11:56 AM, DXB said:

My own monday morning quarterback of this scenario is as follows: When the pilot of the emergency aircraft couldn't easily climb to the MVA, he would have been better using on board terrain avoidance tools on a moving map (as simple as foreflight + portable receiver if need be) to get back to the airport rather than continue to accept vectors. Agree the approach controller's handling sounds pretty reasonable. 

No question this tragedy reminds us all to be attentive to terrain avoidance using the excellent tools now available, whether it's VFR on a dark night or in IMC in the system.  I still gotta wonder what happened on the controller side that led to someone being assigned a heading and altitude that takes them into a mountainside within a class B airspace. That level of mistake seems pretty rare in this day and age.

His ground track showed him over the Ocean approx over IAF for Half Moon bay airport that had a good rnav approach and required no terrain for vectors...

[corn_flake]

A week after I got my PPL, I planned a trip into SFO Class B.  Parting advise from my CFI was to remind me that I'm the PIC.  If ATC ask me to do something crazy,  tell them "unable!!".  Sure enough, when I got to SFO class B, they asked me to do a left 360 and maintain below 2000 when the mountain on my left is only 1944 feet.     

[TargetDriver]

When I seen the downed Cirrus plane news I got real nervous real quick. I was just at the North Vegas airport (KVGT) visiting and doing some advanced training two weeks ago. One of my very good flying buddies works at All in Aviation based at KVGT and is one of the Cirrus instructors. I immediately contacted him to make sure he was alright. Thankfully, he replied and obviously he was but told me that it was a privately owned Cirrus not from there.

I had done my Commercial and Multi training at KVGT so I know the area fairly well and have had Nellis Appr on the radio many times.  What happened was a trajectory and I will not begin to asses possibilities as to why it occurred.  From my time there, I have had a couple miscues from ATC and  was frequently reminded that both KVGT and Nellis are also training facilities for ATC in conjunction with all of the flight training going on.  Hopefully the investigation will reveal what went wrong that lead to this terrible incident and we will be able to use this as a teaching event that will possibly save someone in the future.

As many have responded...Whether VFR or IFR...always Trust but Verify!  The great people on the other end of our radio that take care of us in the air are human and can mistakes just like we can.

 

 

[aviatoreb]

38 minutes ago, Hyett6420 said:

I fully agree, ive been vectored into terrain flying out of Glasgow, Scotland, to avoid incoming traffic.  Kept low, ponted straight at a mountain.  I called 4 times,  need to climb terrain, controller kept me low.  My terrain avoidance system was screaming at me, when finally I was allowed to climb.  I was IFR, following a SID.   Imfiled a MOR with the CAA about it, it scared me that much.  

Does declaring an emergency work the same way in the uk?  Eventually if collision with terrain becomes imminent it becomes an emergency declare its emergency and inform you are now climbing and the controller is forced to move the other airplanes.

[neilpilot]

3 minutes ago, Hyett6420 said:

Yes it does and this was only the second time flying that I have ever thought “if you dont do anything in the next minute im going to declare”. 

Maybe next time rather than keep that thought to yourself, in the famous words of Richard Similie ask the controller "would you like me to declare an emergency?".

[M20TN_Driver]

Hi folks.  New to the forum.  I fly out of KRNO (Reno/Tahoe), KCXP (Carson City) back and forth to the bay area for work and pleasure frequently.  Out here, there isn't really a good option to not fly in the mountains...and yes if you want to get home, you will sooner or later be flying over the mountains at night.  The key as everyone else has said is that you MUST know the altitudes of the peaks on the route and in the terminal area.  When I brought the plane into KCXP for the first time I couldn't believe how surrounded the field was with high mountain terrain....so I made sure I came in during daylight and studied the charts to understand exactly what was there and the respective heights.  Its super unfortunate.  

[carusoam]

Hey, TN_D! 

Welcome aboard.

Thanks for sharing your 3D insight on this tragic occurrence...

Discussions like these are sure to raise awareness of this situation...

Hope you hang around for some of the lighter, more fun threads... 

Best regards,

-a-