Factory Closed Down?

[KSMooniac]

Why it never came to fruition?  Paul Kortapates may have some insight on that subject!

It was a fat pig that performed poorly. As I said previously, it was a great idea and a terrible execution. Poor structural layout made it heavy, and loss of development focus by having more engineers working on interior design instead of basic airplane issues is one example. Offloading the initial design to an inexperienced third party company was a bad first step too.

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[M016576]

26 minutes ago, whiskytango said:

There is another opportunity to keep the factory alive.  Would the military be interested in a fast un-armed drone (a lot faster than quad-copters anyway) with a 1,000+ NM range?  My guess is that an Acclaim, with all the pilot/passenger stuff removed, with aux fuel tanks and remote control would be a lot cheaper from a first-cost and operating cost standpoint than a purpose-built turbine.  The military rarely buys anything in small quantities so that could be a reason for automating Mooney production.

It would be very difficult to outdo the efficiency and reliability of a predator using a piston built aircraft.  There is a reason why almost all military aircraft are turbine powered these days.

[M016576]

1 hour ago, KSMooniac said:

Uh, Textron already has the G36 Bonanza and G58 Baron that they're slowly letting die. Mooney sold more M20's than Textron sold G36's. Textron has no interest at all in building or supporting anything with pistons these days. It's quite sad.

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So true.... The liability & risk/reward for building a product that isn’t in that high of a demand (compared to their other money makers) is probably part of the reason why.  

[MooneyMitch]

12 minutes ago, KSMooniac said:

It was a fat pig that performed poorly. As I said previously, it was a great idea and a terrible execution. Poor structural layout made it heavy, and loss of development focus by having more engineers working on interior design instead of basic airplane issues is one example. Offloading the initial design to an inexperienced third party company was a bad first step too.

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At least they put our Mooney tail on it for us ! 

[MooneyMitch]

23 minutes ago, KSMooniac said:

It was a fat pig that performed poorly. As I said previously, it was a great idea and a terrible execution. Poor structural layout made it heavy, and loss of development focus by having more engineers working on interior design instead of basic airplane issues is one example. Offloading the initial design to an inexperienced third party company was a bad first step too.

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Are you saying the Chino group was inexperienced?

My opinion, there was a wide variety of aviation experienced engineers on the initial project.

 

[kpaul]

8 hours ago, TGreen said:

If sold out until March means that Mooney's independently-owned dealers have ordered 4 planes, I imagine Mooney can meet that commitment even if they shut down for a week or two. 

I wonder whether Beechcraft has changed its production methods. Only produced 3 Bonanzas in the first half of this year.

The realist in me suspects that Beechcraft and Mooney are having no problem keeping up with the demand for high-performance retractable siingles.

Just had a VIP tour of the Beech factory a couple of weeks ago.  Beech is not a one trick pony like Mooney.  They have an entire line producing the AT-6/T-6 for US and foreign militaries.  They have the King Air line Producing the 100/200/300 series.  Then they have the new Longitude Line of $40M jets.  In between the King Air and Longitude assembly lines lived the Bonanza and Barron production.  There had to be close to 100 aircraft in various stages of production on the 4 lines.  Of that there were, I think, only 5 or 6 Bonanza/Barron aircraft.  The Beech factory was amazing and yes they have a few robots that work on the Longitude, but most of it appeared to still require humans.

[KSMooniac]

Are you saying the Chino group was inexperienced?
My opinion, there was a wide variety of aviation experienced engineers on the initial project.
 

Can't answer with a simple yes or no. I think the concept was initially created by an inexperienced crew, and once Mooney started down that road, there was no time to stop and do it right as the ownership was demanding speed. There was no understanding why building a plane from scratch takes longer than building giant commercial buildings in China... And asking permission to slow down was not in the cards. Eventually there were experienced/good people in Chino, but too late to fix everything that was cast in the initial design. I think the POC was 300 or 400 lbs overweight... Can't recover from that big of miss.

I suspect if the M10 program started with a few excellent GA engineers and some patience, it would've been very successful. The market really wants trainers today and Mooney could've been making hundreds per year right now in the US, and working on the M20 replacement. Perhaps even more could be made in China too. Instead they burned through xx or xxx millions of dollars and have little of value to show for it.

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[MooneyMitch]

14 minutes ago, KSMooniac said:

Can't answer with a simple yes or no. I think the concept was initially created by an inexperienced crew, and once Mooney started down that road, there was no time to stop and do it right as the ownership was demanding speed. There was no understanding why building a plane from scratch takes longer than building giant commercial buildings in China... And asking permission to slow down was not in the cards. Eventually there were experienced/good people in Chino, but too late to fix everything that was cast in the initial design. I think the POC was 300 or 400 lbs overweight... Can't recover from that big of miss.

I suspect if the M10 program started with a few excellent GA engineers and some patience, it would've been very successful. The market really wants trainers today and Mooney could've been making hundreds per year right now in the US, and working on the M20 replacement. Perhaps even more could be made in China too. Instead they burned through xx or xxx millions of dollars and have little of value to show for it.

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Thank you for your clarification.

[Parker_Woodruff]

21 minutes ago, KSMooniac said:

The market really wants trainers today and Mooney could've been making hundreds per year right now in the US, and working on the M20 replacement. Perhaps even more could be made in China too. Instead they burned through xx or xxx millions of dollars and have little of value to show for it.


 

Instead, the best we've got is Piper's Pilot 100 - just a rehash PA28.  Good for them.  But a total missed opportunity at Mooney.

[DXB]

20 minutes ago, KSMooniac said:

Can't answer with a simple yes or no. I think the concept was initially created by an inexperienced crew, and once Mooney started down that road, there was no time to stop and do it right as the ownership was demanding speed. There was no understanding why building a plane from scratch takes longer than building giant commercial buildings in China... And asking permission to slow down was not in the cards. Eventually there were experienced/good people in Chino, but too late to fix everything that was cast in the initial design. I think the POC was 300 or 400 lbs overweight... Can't recover from that big of miss.

I suspect if the M10 program started with a few excellent GA engineers and some patience, it would've been very successful. The market really wants trainers today and Mooney could've been making hundreds per year right now in the US, and working on the M20 replacement. Perhaps even more could be made in China too. Instead they burned through xx or xxx millions of dollars and have little of value to show for it.

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Very sad to read about this debacle - what a missed opportunity.  I wish the new owners could have hired (and deferred to) the right management team in the US.  

[MooneyMitch]

1 minute ago, Parker_Woodruff said:

Instead, the best we've got is Piper's Pilot 100 - just a rehash PA28.  Good for them.  But a total missed opportunity at Mooney.

I cringed and felt sad when I read about Piper’s being purchased by China.

It was so sad that the plan to create a Mooney trainer for the China purpose failed .

[TWinter]

Been out of touch on MS and just pulled this thread up. Hate to hear the latest Mooney updates. Always will be a Mooniac. As I read page after page the common comment was low or reduced production of most all GA piston aircraft. Is it that the pricing has just gotten so ridiculous high for new GA piston that nobody is really buying or buying at a pace that will be economically realistic to maintain ?. Seems like the only active production is the business class turbo props and jets. Is this just the start to the end of GA piston? Maybe the writing has been on the wall for years and Mooney being in a recovery phase has just suffered the final blow before the others because they were a minority market coming out of recovery. Somebody posted Beech is down in production on singles and light twins, but business class was producing heavy. Don't know the answer and might be well off base,  but one has to wonder is this just the cusp with more to follow. The thought of so few new single or twin piston in production, but it does make you wonder if we are headed down a dark path in years to come and the manufacturer with deeper pockets will last the longest. Don't know?

 

Tom

[eman1200]

If you would like to read all the previous posts and all the future posts within this thread, please search Mooneyspace from several years ago when we were all pondering what was to become of Mooney Airplane Company, and when we all offered up ideas on how to make Mooney solvent !
You’ll find it all there!  Move along, folks, nothing to see here ! 

I would say the difference is the last time the economy was in the shitter and basically any manufacturer could have gone under. Now business is booming, people are spending money on aviation, and Mooney still can’t sell more than an airplane or two. Big difference, although like everyone else I hope there’s ‘nothing to see here’

[Bravoman]

10 hours ago, Hyett6420 said:

For starters if it wasn't for the British, you wouldn't have a bloody country, lets be honest!

But I must admit I had never ever read the whole text before,  fascinating.  The bit Ive left above is very very topical at the moment re the big B word as indeed that is exactly what the government is doing ie changing for light or transient causes.  Thank you for the education. 

However we have moved on form having a fuedal system of government many centuries ago and I could argue that our system of government is more to the people than yours which tends to be closer to the corporation and the rich man. but we are not allowed politics on here so I wont,   Over a pint perhaps one day.

As for your supply of Tea, umm Paul Revere chucked it in the harbour, damn traitor.

Andrew

And if it wasn’t for us the British would be speaking German. Sorry, it’s Veterans Day and I couldn’t resist!

[tigers2007]

So this "Meijing Group" paid $100M for Mooney? Doesn't that seem quite excessive? Maybe I misinterpreted the 2013 news article in the Shanghai Daily.

"Meijing Group paid about US$100 million in the deal and promised to invest another US$1 billion at a later stage, according to the executive source, who spoke on condition of anonymity."

[RobertGary1]

4 hours ago, INA201 said:

I looked up job offerings off the Mooney website and there is one available.  My guess is this indicates some optimism.

https://recruiting.myapps.paychex.com/appone/MainInfoReq.asp?R_ID=1893036&B_ID=91&fid=1&Adid=0&ssbgcolor=17143A&SearchScreenID=7751&CountryID=3&LanguageID=2This

 

I’ve worked for a few companies that went out of business but had these type of fake job postings. It’s to get excitement for investors. 
 

-Robert 

[GeeBee]

There has been a lot of "stupid money" being thrown around by Chinese investors in US aviation. I recently witnessed 20 million paid for a company that produces what can only be described as a rubber raft beneath a hang glider wing with a 2 cycle engine. Chinese money.

That all said having owned a PA-18, there is always someone making parts. Heck, look at all the TDCS that Univair owns. I can still buy a whole new cowling for an Ercoupe from them.  The beauty of a Mooney is most the construction is conventional and well understood processes. Most vendor equipment and parts are either still made or has viable alternatives. Not really worried.

[afward]

1 hour ago, tigers2007 said:

So this "Meijing Group" paid $100M for Mooney? Doesn't that seem quite excessive? Maybe I misinterpreted the 2013 news article in the Shanghai Daily.

"Meijing Group paid about US$100 million in the deal and promised to invest another US$1 billion at a later stage, according to the executive source, who spoke on condition of anonymity."

Well, is it so far fetched?  Dr. Cheng-Yuan Chen was the CEO of Meijing Group at the time of the acquisition, and was also the owner of the Soaring American Corporation that ostensibly became Mooney Aircraft's owner with the deal.  Meijing Group advanced the funds to purchase Mooney, so it's entirely possible that the transfer to SAC was $100M and only part of that was used for the purchase.  Apparently it really was a "private" transaction, in as much as Meijing Group is private.

Note that one should account for the way the Chinese Government handles the press and business in general when considering these bits of information.  I personally find grains of salt in short supply these days...

Interesting side notes:

Dr. Chen's advanced degrees are all in aerospace and were earned at USC.  Apparently he's a bit of an aviation nut.

Meijing Group is actually a real estate developer in ZhengZhou, China, and the local airport there is the center of the first state-designated Airport Economy Zone in China.

The ZhengZhou AEZ was announced seven months prior to the Mooney acquisition.

Meijing Group actually went all-in (apparently) and created two aviation subsidiaries in the ZhengZhou AEZ around the time of the Mooney acquisition to assemble, trade, and exhibit aircraft, and to do airport construction.

Edited November 12, 2019 by afward

[RLCarter]

12 hours ago, vorlon1 said:

And in the south, it's all 'coke'

regardless of flavor and Sweet tea is actually one word "Sweettea" 

[carusoam]

Summary...

1) New guy comes along and dumps on favored aircraft builder... never to return... he knows not what he is doing...

2) The factory had shut down twice, with no future known, amongst an economic slow down... prior to my first Mooney purchase...

3) The factory shut down again, with no future known, amongst a tremendous recession... prior to my second Mooney purchase...

4) Today... we are reminded about the history of British politics... and Brexit... everyone many want to have been FROM England... 

5) Smoking is still bad... even if it is delivered via an electronic device...

6) It is hard to deter people from smoking even if it is called something really funny... or has people doing PSAs with half their face missing...

7) there does come a time in human events... where the future is undefined...

8) Believe in yourself...

9) Stick to your goals...

10) Keep both eyes open... look for facts... let us know when you see lay-offs start hitting the news...

 

Last time I looked...

The economy was still expanding... at a faster pace than it was in recent years...

There is still room for more economic expansion...

The stock markets continue to climb higher... a mere side effect of strong capitalism...
Capitalism works for everybody... not just the few...

Unemployment is pretty much at an all time low... there are six or seven different ways to measure it... pick one or two...

It is hard to hire experienced people...

All the businesses in town have signs out looking to hire people... 

 

I am a fan of the current management at Mooney. I’ve had the opportunity to speak with them at KOSH... I got the opportunity to speak with a fine gentleman who had recently bought a new O...

It takes some financial strength to be able to buy brand new GA planes...

There are two ends to the equation...

1) lowering costs, which many of us around here have pointed out...

2) increasing awareness of the financially strong people...

I don’t see myself ever being able to afford a new plane... so I need somebody else to buy a new plane and use it for a decade or so...

Expect we are safe from impending doom...
 

The sun is shining. 

Best regards,

-a-

[thinwing]

Amen C

[mooneygirl]

I think the reason that some of us have been silent is to let the process play out and perhaps not to dissuade potential buyers. 

My heart is with the men and women who make those airplanes.  The problem, in my opinion, has never really been with the workmanship, it has been in the management, development [of new models] and the marketing.

In September I was able to tour Pilatus in Stans, Switzerland and meet with the Vice President of General Aviation. He told me stories of how in the very lean years after the 2nd world war, Pilatus manufactured mattresses and bed frames to keep the lights on. Non-aviation contract work is what saved their company. I am not saying that is what is happening at Mooney, but just an example of how you need to do what you need to do, sometimes. 

My hope is one of the two potential buyers is a good fit for our beloved airplane company.

In the meantime, if you are inclined, say a prayer or send a good thought to those who won't be paid past last Friday and who aren't sure what it is going to happen next. 

[FloridaMan]

With $10M I could be cranking out M20j’s like donuts. 

[Marauder]

3 hours ago, tigers2007 said:

So this "Meijing Group" paid $100M for Mooney? Doesn't that seem quite excessive? Maybe I misinterpreted the 2013 news article in the Shanghai Daily.

"Meijing Group paid about US$100 million in the deal and promised to invest another US$1 billion at a later stage, according to the executive source, who spoke on condition of anonymity."

The acquisition costs of companies today is a bit of whack with their market value & revenues. A few years ago an acquisition might be 3X to 4X their revenue. Today it is not unusual to see 10X acquisition costs. A lot depends on market potential and other potential suitors for the company.

[chrixxer]

2 hours ago, mooneygirl said:

Non-aviation contract work is what saved their company.

When I toured the factory in October 2017, they discussed openly how they were contracting out their unused capacity to other businesses. (Also, the production lines sat idle for about 9 months while the Ultras were being certified, IIRC.)

To the poster before who said they'd filed for bankruptcy - that would be public record, and I've searched PACER and don't see any Mooney filing in the Western Texas Bankruptcy court ...?