How hard would it be to get 350hp?

[Niko182]

The majority of the TSIO and IO550 are rated to a max power output of 350hp, but most are limited to eityer 310, 280, or 244hp.

How hard would ot be to create an stc to get those pretty 350 ponies.

[LANCECASPER]

On a stock Acclaim, if the TSIO550 often needs needs new cylinders every 500 hours operating at 280hp, how often would it need cylinders if it was operating at 350hp? Every oil change? 

[donshapansky]

I found the key to cylinder life to be in the cylinder material coating called NIKISIL I had over 750 hrs on cylinders with lowest leak downs at 70/80. I operated at LOP at all times in cruise and full power climbs as per GAMI training.

There has been a liquid cooled version certified but engine problems limited the application to a very few, it was 350 hp.

[aviatoreb]

I was reading the article this month in the AOPA of a guy who built a Reno racing highly modified version of an already racer variant of a Lancair.  He is running a highly modified TSIO550 I think, that he has jumped up to an incredible 800hp.  Lots of custom cooling, and a special turbo for what - I can't remember - 60''?  Yeah I know longevity is not something to expect from such an absurd up-charging, but I am surprised it even lasts a single race without blowing out.  Still he manages to fly it across the country for events.  400mph out of a little piston lancer.

[carusoam]

The gent that wrote the STC for the 310hp IO550 is a great historian of what the engine is capable of...

When I spoke with him about the 310hp could be pushing things towards a limit... he told me the limit was pretty far up the HP chart from there...

Without changing anything but rpm...  200 rpm + FF nets another 30hp... 340....

Prop selection for tip speeds would need review...

Changing the bore and/or stroke... Allows for more displacement...

For comparison... the liquid Rocket Mooney used a TSIO540 to get 350hp... sitting in an M20L...

That was probably a function of its liquid cooling and compression ratio...

 

310hp has a ton of practicality...

unfortunately, the liquid Rocket has some weight limitations so it probably doesn’t get the full use of all the extra hp...

T/O length and climb rate must be awesome... increased speed at altitude will be limited by cash flow... 

PP thoughts only...

Best regards,

-a-

 

[Awful_Charlie]

ISTR there is a limit somewhere on the airframe (?empennage related) that limits how much power can be put in - hence the reason the Acclaim is de-rated to 280HP

If that is correct, it does seem a shame that it can't be 310HP at sea level but with a lower critical altitude for increased take off and initial climb performance

[Guest]

12 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

On a stock Acclaim, if the TSIO550 often needs needs new cylinders every 500 hours operating at 280hp, how often would it need cylinders if it was operating at 350hp? Every oil change? 

If only Lycoming would make cylinders for Continental, most of the issues would be gone.

Clarence

[aviatoreb]

13 hours ago, M20Doc said:

If only Lycoming would make cylinders for Continental, most of the issues would be gone.

Clarence

I TRIED buying alt-brand cylinders for my TSIO520NB - and I had no luck.  I bought Titans, which were working fabulously.  But just a few months after I bought them, they got caught up in a mandatory AD, so then after the allowed hours on them, about 500, I was required to change them out and dump those Titan's in a dumpster.  That was a bummer taking off 6 perfectly good. cylinders of a well running engine.

What is UP with cylinders?  ALL of the cylinder making companies, Lycoming, Continental, as well as the alt brands ALL have cylinders that seem to get wrapped up in AD's. for cracking, etc, making choosing cylinders a guessing game.

As far as one of the main things that makes continental cylinders not last, its the poorly machined valves.  So the trick is to get your new continental cylinders. and them. have the valves re-machined for perfect seating/fit custom “lapping”, and straight out of the box new, by a boutique cylinder (engine). shop.  That prevents the leaking gases. (Clarence I know you know this all much better than I do, but I using your post to write to the group).

Edited August 22, 2019 by aviatoreb

[aviatoreb]

2 hours ago, Awful_Charlie said:

ISTR there is a limit somewhere on the airframe (?empennage related) that limits how much power can be put in - hence the reason the Acclaim is de-rated to 280HP

If that is correct, it does seem a shame that it can't be 310HP at sea level but with a lower critical altitude for increased take off and initial climb performance

I read somewhere that the Liquid rocket that Anthony mentioned not only had the TSIO540L - L for liquid cooled, and pumped out 350hp, mounted on a M20L (the porches mooney and the original long body airframe), but also they did some airframe strengthening, including gussets at leading edges at the join between airframe and body.  That kind of strengthening could potentially raise the Vne and Vno.  But that is addressing aero-elasticity issues. It is not addressing what you are asking which is raw power to the frame issues that are present even during static thrust on the ground.  I don't know anything about that engine cage in that airplane, but the cage not he standard rocket is a beautiful 9 point piece of art.  Those extra points must partly address  the issue.

[LANCECASPER]

5 hours ago, carusoam said:

For comparison... the liquid Rocket Mooney used a TSIO540 to get 350hp... sitting in an M20L...

That was probably a function of its liquid cooling and compression ratio...

The Rocket Engineering conversion for the M20L and M20M was a Continental TSIOL-550-A3B. It produced 335hp at 2700 rpm.

 

https://www.aircraftmerchants.com/cf/acDetail.cfm?AircraftId=AF4ED3BD-EB93-4D07-A7B1-108F46178B90

 

 

[Yetti]

4 hours ago, Awful_Charlie said:

ISTR there is a limit somewhere on the airframe (?empennage related) that limits how much power can be put in - hence the reason the Acclaim is de-rated to 280HP

 

Friend of a friend talking to Mooney people said they had one up to 300mph

[thinwing]

When looking for turbocharged long body 10 years ago ,we flew to Tucson to look at this water cooled wonder...we passed after seeing the condition of interior and paint plus signs of leaking coolant at the heat exchanger in the tail 

[aviatoreb]

13 minutes ago, thinwing said:

When looking for turbocharged long body 10 years ago ,we flew to Tucson to look at this water cooled wonder...we passed after seeing the condition of interior and paint plus signs of leaking coolant at the heat exchanger in the tail 

I was at an airfield this summer in NC and there was a mechanic there who came over and saw my airplane and said rocket, eh...then he started telling me how on the field there used to be one of the liquid rockets on the field under his care - only a total of 5 were made - and he described that it was a real bear to keep going.  Leaking fluid, etc.  Too exotic for me.

I have heard that at least one was amped up some how from that 335hp listing to 350hp.  The unicorn fastest Mooney - Rumor has it...260TAS.

Edited August 22, 2019 by aviatoreb

[thinwing]

My Guy said do not buy it and expect ME to maintain it...

[Wayne Cease]

There are plenty of 310 hp NA IO-550 engines. Going to 350 hp is just under 13% more hp. That shouldn't be too hard. More hp, more heat though.



Wayne

[MIm20c]

To me the problem is not being limited to 310 (or even 280) hp. The problem is not being able to run at 100 percent power all the time. I wonder what a 310 hp cruise setting would net at 25k?

[Guest]

9 hours ago, thinwing said:

When looking for turbocharged long body 10 years ago ,we flew to Tucson to look at this water cooled wonder...we passed after seeing the condition of interior and paint plus signs of leaking coolant at the heat exchanger in the tail 

I looked after a Cessna 414A wth a pair of liquid cooled 550’s, it was quite a plane.  The owner tired of the expense and bought a TBM instead.

Clarence

[thinwing]

Good call by owner

[carusoam]

New thread coming...

How to finance a TBM in the current low interest environment... I may need a 100year loan... 

-or-

How to convince Rocket Engineering to hang a small turbine on the front of a Long Body...

Might need David’s Cowl skills to cover the turbine’s clothing needs...

 

turbine is going to bump the engine output up from the 350 being asked for to about 500+... 

Best regards,

-a-

[NJMac]

New thread coming...
How to finance a TBM in the current low interest environment... I may need a 100year loan... 

Interest only silly.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[aviatoreb]

7 hours ago, carusoam said:

New thread coming...

How to finance a TBM in the current low interest environment... I may need a 100year loan... 

Wasn't Hong Kong purchased by England on a 99 year loan?  But then they had to give it back.

[Herlihy Brother]

I have two 350hp lycs on my a* and they're great! Reliable, fuel efficient and so powerful. I would put one of those on my mooney. 2500 hours on them and running like champs. 250 knots no problem, anytime. Tio540u2a is the model, roll your own turbos, mine have twin rajays. They're quiet too, much quieter than the io360. They are super flexible too---you can run them at 42gph extra rich climbing with no airflow and stay cool or lop as low as 10gph.  I fly mine at 14gph. You can fly them down low or up high. Idk why rocket chose the continental....considering this lyc has been making speed freaks happy for so long. And the parts for them are cheap and plentiful, and you hardly need to ever buy parts cuz they're so reliable. As long as the cam don't spall haha. Do the math, you can get darn close to a cj1 block time with this setup for a fraction of the cost. Add a little proseal and bleed air and we can chase lanceair ivps.

[CharlesHuddleston]

On 8/23/2019 at 12:14 AM, carusoam said:

 

How to convince Rocket Engineering to hang a small turbine on the front of a Long Body...

Might need David’s Cowl skills to cover the turbine’s clothing needs...

 

turbine is going to bump the engine output up from the 350 being asked for to about 500+... 

 

I have seriously pondered this exact question. You could put a 300-500hp turboprop up front! Fit shouldn't be a problem, but you might have to re-work the weight and balance/CG. Then your only worry would be how much fuel you could carry! Can't you convert a certified aircraft to an experimental? For "testing" purposes, of course. If anyone wants to poney up for the equipment, I will volunteer my airframe!

[Guest]

It’s been done with a Garrett 331 on a Comanche 400.

Clarence

[Chessieretriever]

To clarify: The M20M (not L) with the TSIOL-550 is "de-rated" to 335HP from the original 350HP by reducing the speed to 2600 from 2700. I can't speak for the "L" as it has other components that may be a little different than the "M" (like the gear etc.). The charts from TCM (I have them) go above 400HP if the manifold pressure is increased to 40" at the rated speed of 2700RPM (the Extra 400 operates with this set up). I have owned our Liquid Rocket more than 10 years and have enjoyed a dispatch performance that is as good or better than my fellow aviators on the field with TSIO-550's. In 600+ hours I have never experienced a cooling related problem. It appears that the expertise associated with maintaining these engines is the differentiating factor in availability and reliability (not too much experience in the field with details like how to properly de-aerate the cooling system at each cylinder head or how to re-fill it etc.) From discussions with Conrad one of the areas of concern with higher power ratings  on my particular airplane (it was the one used to get the STC and was flown to 35,000ft) is tail authority when just getting into motion and low speed conditions. This is the reason why the TBM 950 does not produce the full 950HP until after it attained a minimum airspeed. I hope this helps clear a few questions up. Cheers, OFB