QUESTION: M20E Vs M20F

[MyNameIsNobody]

As U have described your mission the E is the faster plane and less money.  E wins.

[Jpflysdfw]

Thanks. Corrosion and fuel tank leaks are the two most incidious things I worry about followed by the emotional concern of buying an E (or F) and later wishing I’d have bought the other ( or even a J)!  Regarding tank sealing, while I hope I never have to go through one,  the probability is I will and it’s very encouraging that predictable and reliable results shouldn’t be something I need tone concerned over.  

As a side note, thus far, I’ve found MS to be extraordinarily welcoming along with providing a selfless free flow of knowledge sharing. At some point, maybe I’ll actually be an information provider Vs consumer!   Thanks to you and everyone else that has been so generous in helping this Mooney newbie.  I will undoubtedly continue to have many questions as I move forward towards Mooney ownership. 

cheers, Jeff

[Jpflysdfw]

7 hours ago, carusoam said:

Jeff, have no fear...

There have been tougher times before.

Today,

We have various suppliers for re-sealing tanks.

Better knowledge of how to strip tanks.

What chemicals to use.

What Procedures to avoid.

Enough knowledge that some people have stripped and sealed their own tanks.  Without being a pro mechanic themselves...

 

When it comes to fuel bladders Griggs has a long established history... that has been recently even improved upon....

There is plenty of good experience with both re-seal and bladders...

Modern materials make a huge difference...

An old seal job may not make it 30 years... but a new seal job, done properly, can go the distance...

My tanks seal is going on it’s third decade...

 

The biggest challenges of the past were lots of unknowns...

And no way to check into the answers...

You have MS!

Best regards,

-a-

 

[Jpflysdfw]

As U have described your mission the E is the faster plane and less money.  E wins.

 

Admittedly, it’s starting to feel that way.

[gsxrpilot]

Passengers could always be more comfortable. I'm guessing 99% of all airplanes produced are geared to passengers. So if it's about the passengers, get an A36, or a Baron, or why not a cabin class twin with a potty. I'd like an MU2. But I don't have "regular" passengers... like kids that don't have a choice but to go. My passengers are just occasional, random friends, who are pretty happy to get to ride along in the airplane. They have no idea the level of expense, effort, maintenance, time spent on MooneySpace, it takes to provide the ride that they're getting. When all that is factored in, for occasional back seaters, I wouldn't even consider that in choosing between an E or F. They won't even know, much less, appreciate the difference. They'll just be happy to be getting a free ride. Get the best Mooney for the Pilot you can find. That's the guy/girl who will spend the most time in the seat, and also spend the most money on the experience.

*Reference @Bob_Belville happy back seat passengers in an E.

[Marauder]

As U have described your mission the E is the faster plane and less money.  E wins.
  Admittedly, it’s starting to feel that way.

I’d get some time in both and a J before I began the search. May sway your decision.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Jpflysdfw]

2 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

Passengers could always be more comfortable. I'm guessing 99% of all airplanes produced are geared to passengers. So if it's about the passengers, get an A36, or a Baron, or why not a cabin class twin with a potty. I'd like an MU2. But I don't have "regular" passengers... like kids that don't have a choice but to go. My passengers are just occasional, random friends, who are pretty happy to get to ride along in the airplane. They have no idea the level of expense, effort, maintenance, time spent on MooneySpace, it takes to provide the ride that they're getting. When all that is factored in, for occasional back seaters, I wouldn't even consider that in choosing between an E or F. They won't even know, much less, appreciate the difference. They'll just be happy to be getting a free ride. Get the best Mooney for the Pilot you can find. That's the guy/girl who will spend the most time in the seat, and also spend the most money on the experience.

*Reference @Bob_Belville happy back seat passengers in an E.

Thanks Paul.  Just got back from a quick jump up to Oklahoma and when I got met a guy here local with a J that just landed. After chatting for thirty mins, I’ll be danged if he doesn’t almost have me ready to start looking for a J’s. Clearly, I’m very easily swayed!   Super nice guy and he has the 100gal tanks, which is just an insane amount of fuel.  I can tell this is not going to be a slam dunk decision.

Jeff

 

 

[Jpflysdfw]

2 hours ago, Marauder said:

 

I’d get some time in both and a J before I began the search. May sway your decision.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

Lol, That’s precisely what I’m afraid of..... I seem to be easily convinced that moving up is a good thing!! Jeff

[Marauder]

Lol, That’s precisely what I’m afraid of..... I seem to be easily convinced that moving up is a good thing!! Jeff

I would do some heavy duty soul searching before committing to a particular model. I certainly would get some time with everything in your price range. You may find that waiting for a year or 2 will allow you to save up for the model you really want. Or conversely, you may look for an older model that is better equipped for your needs.

Not sure where you are based, but I would find some willing owners to fly with you in the different types. Also, get your “needs” and “wants” nailed down. Not talking about “it has wings” or “it has a propeller”. What should the plane have to fit your needs. If an AP is a necessity, then buying one without will be an expensive addition.

The other option is if you know the plane will be with you for a while (and I mean a while), finding a clean airframe at the right price can be the basis for equipping the plane the way you want it to be equipped. For me, 27 years of owning the same plane was a good justification for investing in her.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Skates97]

There's a nice F that just went on the market owned by one of our Mooneyspace members.

 

[EricJ]

20 hours ago, Marauder said:

I would do some heavy duty soul searching before committing to a particular model. I certainly would get some time with everything in your price range. You may find that waiting for a year or 2 will allow you to save up for the model you really want. Or conversely, you may look for an older model that is better equipped for your needs.

Not sure where you are based, but I would find some willing owners to fly with you in the different types. Also, get your “needs” and “wants” nailed down. Not talking about “it has wings” or “it has a propeller”. What should the plane have to fit your needs. If an AP is a necessity, then buying one without will be an expensive addition.

The other option is if you know the plane will be with you for a while (and I mean a while), finding a clean airframe at the right price can be the basis for equipping the plane the way you want it to be equipped. For me, 27 years of owning the same plane was a good justification for investing in her.

^^^This.

I was looking around at E models and happened across a somewhat neglected J that had "good bones".   For me it was the right way to go and it's been a lot of fun.

I'd suggest keeping an open mind on models and just look at anything within budget and within appropriate condition and equipment limits.   You never know what you might run across that really fits and maybe speaks to you.

Edited July 5, 2018 by EricJ

[Jpflysdfw]

Thanks @Marauder, I’m in the Dallas Tx area and am fortunate in that I’ve been blessed with a great career (now winding down). I’ve generally been pretty frugal over my income producing years, which gives me options now.  Saving for a better airplane is thankfully not a factor.  I have aging parents in the Midwest that I antipicate flying to see a few times a year. That will be my principal long mission mixed in with some recreational flying. I have thoughts of doing an annual OshKosh trip and a few other adventures but seldom over mountainous terrain or into high altitude airports.  I suppose in reality I don’t need another airplane but.... I want one that will be a better traveler than my Tiger (which does have a C1 AP, marginally acceptable).  And, I don’t want to spend almost as much in avionics as my Tiger is worth to get it upgraded (new GPS coupled to AP, JPI, ADSB, Aspen or G5 etc, there’s that frugal thing again).  That is the single biggest driver for the search for a new plane.  I’ve already bought one airplane that didn’t address the many of my wants,  so I think they are pretty well crystallized.   Truthfully, a solid/upgraded C would probably satisfy most of my “wants”, except eliminating any potential for carb ice and being able to dial in LOP during cruise. How important are those.....well that’s debatable and as always....in the eye of the beholder.

I originally considered E thru K, decided that while high altitude would be cool, the added time to altitude, time back down, having to muck around with O2 and shorter TBO was probably not worth the benefit for the majority of my flying.  If I found a decent one, at a reasonable price, I wouldn’t rule it out since nobody forces you to fly high altitude.  The J is probably ideal and even more than I need (more efficient windshield, cowl, like the yokes better and improved location on tank selector, no shotgun panel). My thought is the F probably provides 90%+ of the J benefit at a nice $ discount(frugality...see a theme?) finding a 201 windshield/cowl a good AP and GPS would be ideal. The input received thus far leads the E to now be more intriguing than I had previously considered. At 5’8”, I think someone could survive back there in pinch and backseat passengers will likely be few (thanks to @Bob_Belville for the pic of smiling backseat passengers). I have not flown in a short-body nor a J so am anxious to compare those .  However, irrespective of model, I really do want to find a path to fold down back seats. Love that about the Tiger: golf clubs, dog crate, lots of flexibility etc.  

Yeah, I know...I’m all over the map!!    

Thanks for your patience and inputs. Jeff

[gsxrpilot]

Jeff, I'm down the road in Austin but will be spending a considerable amount of time late August and September in Denton/North Dallas area. I'd be happy to give you a ride in my K although I probably wouldn't recommend it for your mission. But I can also talk through the differences of all the different models, pro/cons of each. The truth is anything C through J would fit your mission very well. It's all about how much you want to spend or how deep you want to get into it.

The late model J's have the best back seat (fold down/removable) option. It's exactly the same as in my K. But there is a seat mod posted here on MooneySpace that will work for any of the earlier C - J models.

I would recommend that whatever model you end up with, get one with a WAAS GPS and a good autopilot. Those are both surprisingly expensive upgrades but many planes out there already have them done. Expect to pay $0.25 or less, on the dollar at purchase time for those upgrades.  Or buy a fixer upper and pay full price for the same thing.

If you haven't already, get on the AllAmerican email list for advance info on the best Mooneys that come up for sale.

[Jpflysdfw]

Paul, great and thanks for the offer.  So long as it’s not an inconvenience, I will absolutely take you up on your offer and would love to pick your brain.  I recall you flew a nice C with a 530 before ur K.  @Hank indicated there was a seat mod previously posted.  I did a cursory search for it  last night but didn’t come up with anything.  I’ll keep looking because that is definitely something I’d like to have. Thanks again for the offer and hopefully we can connect in latter August.

BTW, am definitely NOT looking for “a project”/ fixer upper.  

Jeff

[Jpflysdfw]

1 hour ago, EricJ said:

^^^This.

I was looking around at E models and happened across a somewhat neglected J that had "gone bones".   For me it was the right way to go and it's been a lot of fun.

I'd suggest keeping an open mind on models and just look at anything within budget and within appropriate condition and equipment limits.   You never know what you might run across that really fits and maybe speaks to you.

Eric, thanks for the note. I absolutely can relate to your reference of finding something that speaks to me.  There are many great airplanes out there, the trick for me seems to be finding “the one” among the many. So, I won’t rule out anything too quickly.  Jeff

[Skates97]

4 minutes ago, Jpflysdfw said:

Paul, great and thanks for the offer.  So long as it’s not an inconvenience, I will absolutely take you up on your offer and would love to pick your brain.  I recall you flew a nice C with a 530 before ur K.  @Hank indicated there was a seat mod previously posted.  I did a cursory search for it  last night but didn’t come up with anything.  I’ll keep looking because that is definitely something I’d like to have. Thanks again for the offer and hopefully we can connect in latter August.

BTW, am definitely NOT looking for “a project”/ fixer upper.  

Jeff

Here are the instructions that @piperpainter put together. I can't remember where I downloaded them from but I have had them on my computer for awhile in anticipation of someday...

 

Folding Mooney Seats.pdf

[Jpflysdfw]

2 minutes ago, Skates97 said:

Here are the instructions that @piperpainter put together. I can't remember where I downloaded them from but I have had them on my computer for awhile in anticipation of someday...

 

Folding Mooney Seats.pdf

That’s awesome, you likely saved me an hour of searching.  Btw, I recall seeing ur window tinting and homemade artic air instructions a while back. I haven’t tried them yet but they were very informative..nice job!!  Jeff

[gsxrpilot]

2 minutes ago, Jpflysdfw said:

Btw, I recall seeing ur window tinting and homemade artic air instructions a while back. I haven’t tried them yet but they were very informative..nice job!!  Jeff

I can attest to @Skates97 window tinting procedure. I used it to tint the back windows in my 252. Love it.

[MyNameIsNobody]

I put two full sets of clubs in my backseat.  Still have baggage useable.  Just have to pull woods from bag.  No big deal.  Get a J if you can afford it with fold-down seats.  If I could of afforded a J years ago that is what I would of purchased.  Otherwise, ZERO regrets on my E.  You can put 201 yokes in a vintage Mooney.  I did.

[Danb]

JP when to get to talk with Bobbyboy you’ll see the real reason for those smiles.

Good luck finding your plane it’s a lot of fun!

[Danb]

13 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

I can attest to @Skates97 window tinting procedure. I used it to tint the back windows in my 252. Love it.

Now in this summertime heat,Paul how much does the tinting help, seems like a great idea. Looks cool to

[Stephen]

1 hour ago, Danb said:

Now in this summertime heat,Paul how much does the tinting help, seems like a great idea. Looks cool to

+1  Also @Jpflysdfw If a trip to KROG isn't too inconvenient tiger trip, I can give you a ride in my F; I'll be down there next week to see a customer. My step-father had a Tiger (and 152 and pa28-235 and PA 32-300) growing up. I loved the Tiger scoring points with the cool cowling decal and the fighter style sliding canopy!

[Jpflysdfw]

Thanks @Stephen. Very generous offer, not sure at this point. I was about to go fly earlier this AM and during preflight found the image attached. Air induction into filter. So much for ram air! Not sure how long I flew that way yesterday. Flying with that way unknowingly Vs knowingly are two different things. Not a huge deal, but... Intended to replace it at annual in May and couldn’t source a replacement. Time search harder. That is one of the great things about this plane...takes 5 secs to open her up and preflight the engine compartment. Repair will be complicated by me getting ready to go out of town for several days starting tomorrow. 

[gsxrpilot]

10 hours ago, Danb said:

Now in this summertime heat,Paul how much does the tinting help, seems like a great idea. Looks cool to

Sorry to derail the thread.... the whole reason was to cut down on heat in the cockpit. It works well. Unfortunately the windshield is still bare and allowing too much heat in.

[bonal]

Back to the question at hand I think your potential passengers would mean a short or mid body would both work and you should be mostly looking at planes that are already equipped for your mission.  There is also the C which would be a lower price point but I don't think you would see a big difference in performance. Maybe ten to fifteen miles pet hour. The E,F or J would be a big jump from your Tiger.  Enjoy the search.