Options for removing the Vacuum Pump w/ KAP 150

[MisfitSELF]

I would love to get rid of my vacuum pump.  Unfortunately I have a KAP 150 and my avionics guy tells me that it relies on the altitude gyros of my vacuum driven altitude indicator and is not capable with the G5.  I have an HSI and I'd love to get something like a G5 to replace my altitude indicator and thus get rid of the pump, the filter, the tubing, the vacuum regulator, etc (and not to mention the huge and clunky mecanical gyro altitude indicator).

So here are my options (as presented by my avoinics guy and in ascending order of cost):

1. Live with it
2. Get the G5, get rid of the vacuum pump and lose the ILS capability with the autopilot
3. Get the G5, keep the vacuum pump gyro mounted somewhere in the airplane to drive the autopilot (which entirely defeats the purpose so I don't know why he even suggested it!)
4. Get an alternate brand electric altitude indicator that can drive the KAP but I would still have to buy and mount a  G5 (something about this alternate brand AI not being legal by itself...there was lots of "blah blah blah, it'll cost you lots more, so I ignored the details)
5. Buy a new autopilot along with the G5 (again "blah blah blah, just give me $20K more and I'll make it work for you....")

I'm with option one now, but I still have mental scars of dealing with the huge filter in the way at my last annual and also dream of getting rid of 20 some odd pounds of stuff.  Any chance that my avionics guy is missing something?

Thanks.

Bruce

[N201MKTurbo]

Get an Aspen instead of a G5

[gsxrpilot]

I did this... with a KFC150 (same requirements). BTW you're doing the right thing by doing the research yourself and not relying on the local avionics guy. You decide and then tell him what to do.

I installed an Aspen PFD Pro 1000 (and EA100) - second hand $6K. This drives the KFC150 beautifully. 
Sell both your AI and your HSI. 
I then added the G5 as the secondary AI. Any electric AI will work. For IFR flying, you really should have two AI's regardless of the legal requirements.

[gsxrpilot]

4 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

Get an Aspen instead of a G5

You beat me to it.

[carusoam]

Let me jump in....  

The KAP150 is a really good AP.

It has many inputs that can be kinda surprising... didn’t know they were there....

If you’re gonna educate yourself...

Go to the BK website... they have have a few manuals that are free to download...

 

While you are There look-up details for the BK version of their latest electric AI...

 

That’s a subtle reminder that a vacuum driven AI is not required for the KAP150...

Who told you that?

Garmin has a couple of versions of electric AIs, so does Aspen, BK has one somebody might buy some day... L3 may have one...

nobody has tossed out the KAP when installing their G5s or other Garmin AI, have they?  Just wondering...

@Rmag has one of those G500txi devices and what looks like an aged KAP or KFC in the panel...

Best regards,

-a-

[Steve W]

Aspen, G500(TXi), Mythical KI-300, wait for the GFC 500(or other Autopilots) for Mooney.

I'm not sure where the "Remove the Vacuum pump and lose the ILS" came from. Without the Attitude indicator the KFC 150 is totally inoperative.

I'm waiting for the GFC 500.

 

 

Edited June 27, 2018 by Steve W

[PTK]

6 hours ago, MisfitSELF said:

I would love to get rid of my vacuum pump.  Unfortunately I have a KAP 150 and my avionics guy tells me that it relies on the altitude gyros of my vacuum driven altitude indicator and is not capable with the G5.  I have an HSI and I'd love to get something like a G5 to replace my altitude indicator and thus get rid of the pump, the filter, the tubing, the vacuum regulator, etc (and not to mention the huge and clunky mecanical gyro altitude indicator).

So here are my options (as presented by my avoinics guy and in ascending order of cost):

1. Live with it
2. Get the G5, get rid of the vacuum pump and lose the ILS capability with the autopilot
3. Get the G5, keep the vacuum pump gyro mounted somewhere in the airplane to drive the autopilot (which entirely defeats the purpose so I don't know why he even suggested it!)
4. Get an alternate brand electric altitude indicator that can drive the KAP but I would still have to buy and mount a  G5 (something about this alternate brand AI not being legal by itself...there was lots of "blah blah blah, it'll cost you lots more, so I ignored the details)
5. Buy a new autopilot along with the G5 (again "blah blah blah, just give me $20K more and I'll make it work for you....")

I'm with option one now, but I still have mental scars of dealing with the huge filter in the way at my last annual and also dream of getting rid of 20 some odd pounds of stuff.  Any chance that my avionics guy is missing something?

Thanks.

Bruce

You’re making the right decision waiting. The KI 300 is supposed to be coming out soon. Q3 this year according to BK. It will enable you to accomplish exactly what you want.

[MisfitSELF]

1 hour ago, PTK said:

You’re making the right decision waiting. The KI 300 is supposed to be coming out soon. Q3 this year according to BK. It will enable you to accomplish exactly what you want.

Thanks.  I had read about the KI 300 and figured it was "vaporware" as it was announced back in like 2015!  But yes, it would be the ideal way to go and I'll continue to wait and see.

[PTK]

18 minutes ago, MisfitSELF said:

Thanks.  I had read about the KI 300 and figured it was "vaporware" as it was announced back in like 2015!  But yes, it would be the ideal way to go and I'll continue to wait and see.

It’s been through design changes and now it’s getting a software update. According to BK it was released a few months ago but they decided to hold it for a software update. Rather than release it and have customers deal with the update. It was just a logical customer service decision really.

[Bryan]

I am in the same boat but with a KFC 150.  The only thing on my plane using the vacuum is my AI. Check your speed takes if installed, I have electric speed brakes - some early ones are vacuum. If I could rip out the vacuum (and standby), I could save some UL.

I am not sold on the Aspen as it seems to be the oldest of the “glass”, the KI300 seems like the easiest option when/if it ever comes out but then no glass option yet for the HSI except maybe the G5.

A G5 as my HSI would give me a backup AI.

I think if money was no object, I’d go with the G500Txi with the EIS built in, today.

I am not ready to throw away my great flying KFC 150 for the GFC setup. Maybe the GFC 600 in the future, but not the 500 today.

[autopatch]

Garmin says it is compatible unless I’m reading this wrong:

http://newsroom.garmin.com/press-release/featured-releases/garmin-announces-third-party-autopilot-support-g5-electronic-flight-

[Bryan]

The G5/HSI when adding the GAD29b will send the Nav/Hdg/GPSS signals to the KFC/KAP systems as directional source but as stated above the King Autopilots will not work (at all) without an AI source.

Today that is the original KI256, an Aspen with an EA1000 adapter, a G500 with adapter, or the “upcoming” slide-in replacement KI300.

The G5/AI, today, cannot send the signals for the King systems AI requirement.

[autopatch]

Thanks for the clarification. I suspect I’m going to run into a similar problem with my Century 2000.

It seems odd that Garmin wouldn’t have designed for complete compatibility. Pretty big marketing miss, unless they were assuming people would want to keep existing AI as back up.

[N201MKTurbo]

Just now, autopatch said:

Thanks for the clarification. I suspect I’m going to run into a similar problem with my Century 2000.

It seems odd that Garmin wouldn’t have designed for complete compatibility. Pretty big marketing miss, unless they were assuming people would want to keep existing AI as back up.

The G5 was designed as an experimental instrument. It has a fully functional autopilot built in. It was never intended to interface with legacy autopilots. Why should it, you could get the servos and control head for cheap. 

It wasn't until they certified it for certified aircraft that the legacy autopilot issue surfaced.

BTW the G5 could easily interface to your autopilot. It is not a technical issue, it is a regulatory issue.

[Marauder]

Thanks for the clarification. I suspect I’m going to run into a similar problem with my Century 2000.

It seems odd that Garmin wouldn’t have designed for complete compatibility. Pretty big marketing miss, unless they were assuming people would want to keep existing AI as back up.

You will. A buddy just upgraded to the G5 to run his Century 41. He still needs the AI for the AP to function.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

[Oldguy]

I recently did a similar upgrade as @gsxrpilot with my J - Aspen PFD with an EA 100 and a Sandia Quattro for backup. I pulled my stand-by vacuum pump, but kept the engine operated one for my speed brakes (older ones). With the Aspen and the Sandia I was able to pull several other pieces out of my panel and ended up gaining a bunch of UL. Took it our for my first test flight and ran the ILS at the next airport over down to minimums using my 430W, KAP 150 and the GPSS on the Aspen. Was great for the procedure turn and going missed.

[Vno]

I just purchased this J and I had a similar conversation with the avionics shop when replacing the AI (KG-258) and HSI (KCS-55A). He suggested notes 1 and 3 of your list. Autopilot is a KAP-150. I went with the Dual Garmin G5 setup by choice and kept the AI and Vacuum system intact. I also removed the ADF and a plantronics CD player. Old AI went into the ADF slot. I would have preferred to remove the Vacuum system entirely but did not want to lose the use of the autopilot. Difference to go the Aspen route was about $9K+ with quotes I received.

I gained about 15 pounds of useful load removing the HSI and remote gyro. I think your avionics shop is not steering you incorrectly. (Sorry for the double negative) Garmin has the interface for the KAP/KFC autopilot, it just can't be the primary source.

Brian

15 hours ago, MisfitSELF said:

 

So here are my options (as presented by my avoinics guy and in ascending order of cost):

1. Live with it
2. Get the G5, get rid of the vacuum pump and lose the ILS capability with the autopilot
3. Get the G5, keep the vacuum pump gyro mounted somewhere in the airplane to drive the autopilot (which entirely defeats the purpose so I don't know why he even suggested it!)
4. Get an alternate brand electric altitude indicator that can drive the KAP but I would still have to buy and mount a  G5 (something about this alternate brand AI not being legal by itself...there was lots of "blah blah blah, it'll cost you lots more, so I ignored the details)
5. Buy a new autopilot along with the G5 (again "blah blah blah, just give me $20K more and I'll make it work for you....")

 

 

[carusoam]

Welcome aboard, Maneuvering speed!

Nice details.

Best regards,

-a-

[SocataDan]

When using the Aspen and EA100 to connect to the KAP 150 are you able to use the Aspen for altitude pre-select and will it fly a fully coupled approach? 

Do you still need the KAS 297B control to get altitude preselect? I currently don't have the KAS device but want to try and keep my KAP 150 since it's 3-axis autopilot it seems crazy to replace. 

Originally, I was trying to go down the path of G3x Touch which says it is compatible, but looking deeper it appears to only handle GPSS and not altitude/pitch.  I guess one option might be to add the KAS 297B and just step down on approach manually at each fix while using the G3x for lateral guidance. But if Aspen can handle both it might we worth going that route. . . 

What do you guys think?

[carusoam]

Welcome aboard, Dan...

there may be more updated threads than this one...

Its a pretty hot topic That is continuously being updated...

Best regards,

-a-

[LANCECASPER]

On 2/25/2020 at 11:24 PM, SocataDan said:

When using the Aspen and EA100 to connect to the KAP 150 are you able to use the Aspen for altitude pre-select and will it fly a fully coupled approach? 

Do you still need the KAS 297B control to get altitude preselect? I currently don't have the KAS device but want to try and keep my KAP 150 since it's 3-axis autopilot it seems crazy to replace. 

Originally, I was trying to go down the path of G3x Touch which says it is compatible, but looking deeper it appears to only handle GPSS and not altitude/pitch.  I guess one option might be to add the KAS 297B and just step down on approach manually at each fix while using the G3x for lateral guidance. But if Aspen can handle both it might we worth going that route. . . 

What do you guys think?

On a KFC/KAP150, to add the King KAS297B you'll need to an an encoding altimeter, a King KEA130A. To add both of them you're looking at quite a few thousand dollars.

[Bob Weber]

On 2/26/2020 at 12:24 AM, SocataDan said:

When using the Aspen and EA100 to connect to the KAP 150 are you able to use the Aspen for altitude pre-select and will it fly a fully coupled approach? 

Do you still need the KAS 297B control to get altitude preselect? I currently don't have the KAS device but want to try and keep my KAP 150 since it's 3-axis autopilot it seems crazy to replace. 

Originally, I was trying to go down the path of G3x Touch which says it is compatible, but looking deeper it appears to only handle GPSS and not altitude/pitch.  I guess one option might be to add the KAS 297B and just step down on approach manually at each fix while using the G3x for lateral guidance. But if Aspen can handle both it might we worth going that route. . . 

What do you guys think?

I believe that interface allows for both.

I'm certain about the approaches, and have flown many KFC 150/Aspen upgrades that flew very well in the ALT preselect capture mode.

The beauty of this upgrade is to in fact, eliminate the very costly KAS 297/ KEA 130 components.

The thing I noticed, was how crisp the system would fly when everything was working properly.

Pilots would remark how it was flying the ALT modes differently, I would tell them it is finally flying them accurately!

Bob Weber

webairconsulting.com

Edited March 2, 2020 by Bob Weber
more info

[LANCECASPER]

The EA100 only eliminates the KI256 attitude indicator. At this point you still need the KAS297B and KEA130A if you have a KFC/KAP 150 too get pre-select on an Aspen.  There is an APS4A made by Avionik Straubing of Germany sold by Aspen. However this isn't available for a KFC/KAP 150, only the KFC200. I've heard it's good though.

https://aspenavionics.com/products/aps4a-altitude-preselect

https://www.avionik.de/en/products/avsr-products/altitude-preselect-system.html

There is a Mooney pilot on this site that shall remain nameless whose shop has installed an ACU2 on his Aspen which has an output for Baro Corrected altitude. This eliminated his need for the KEA130A altimeter but he still kept the KAS297B pre-select. He put in a small potentiometer on his panel to adjust for the current altimeter setting.

[jlunseth]

The GI275 has outputs for the KFC150, but think about this.  If you get rid of your vacuum driven instruments you have a single power source for your critical IFR instruments.  If you lose your electrical what’s left?  The backup battery options are not the greatest, the 275 has a one hour backup but many have just 30 minutes and when you read the fine print they say 15-30 minutes.  It takes about 15 minutes to fly an approach, and that does not count the time it takes to descend from altitude and get to the airport.  A good option, the one I am looking at, is to get a 275 as a backup AI to the vacuum instruments.  It substitutes for the Turn Coordinator, has a slip-skid indicator and standard turn indicators. Leave the vacuum instruments where they are.  If you had a dual alternator/dual battery system you might think differently.

[Oldguy]

On 2/25/2020 at 11:24 PM, SocataDan said:

When using the Aspen and EA100 to connect to the KAP 150 are you able to use the Aspen for altitude pre-select and will it fly a fully coupled approach? 

Do you still need the KAS 297B control to get altitude preselect? I currently don't have the KAS device but want to try and keep my KAP 150 since it's 3-axis autopilot it seems crazy to replace. 

Originally, I was trying to go down the path of G3x Touch which says it is compatible, but looking deeper it appears to only handle GPSS and not altitude/pitch.  I guess one option might be to add the KAS 297B and just step down on approach manually at each fix while using the G3x for lateral guidance. But if Aspen can handle both it might we worth going that route. . . 

What do you guys think?

I did the Aspen/EA100 upgrade to my J and at the same time put in the KEA 130A and KAS 297B for my KAP 150. The cost for the two instruments was about 2 AMU and installation was minimal while they had the panel apart doing the Aspen (I think they charged me $400 to put them in).