New Member - Need Trusted Advice

[ValkyrieRider]

I am a brand new member, and very hopeful to be a Mooney M20(C-?) owner in the next few weeks.  I have loved the Mooney since becoming a PP, 13 years ago, although I have never flown one.  Actually, currently I don't have a complex endorsement, but the instructor I am working on IFR training will shift to that immediately after purchase.  I am looking to purchase a '65 - '72 Mooney, and have found a few '67 and '68 that are in my price range.  So the couple questions I have for this experienced group:

    1.  I have a different instructor that is telling me that I should not purchase a '68 with cash, because I will be using it weekly to get to an office 300 miles away, and I can't afford for it to be down.  He said that it wouldn't be reliable, and I should consider taking out a loan and purchasing an 1980+ Cessna 182, because it would be more reliable and not need the level of constant work to keep it in the air.

    2.  I have looked at a couple '68 M20C's, one that is closest to my house shows a LOT of signs of age, compared to others.  There are a couple areas that cause a little alarm (although, uneducated because I have never owned an older Mooney), such as there is a little pitting and rusting on the flap handle and the Johnson bar.  I would think that they shouldn't have rust on them, but maybe I am wrong (I will post a picture for reference).

    3.  The second picture is of a removable plate on the left wing, near the fuel fill tank hole, that has gunk all around it.  It is the only one I see like this, but it concerned me.  I was also surprised that the owners didn't clean it up prior to me coming to look at the plane.  They seem like great people, but that doesn't alleviate my concern.  Any thoughts on this?

    4.  The last picture would be of the pucks, would these need to be changed immediately, or is this a standard look?  

I will definitely get a PPI, as I see most recommend on this site, but wanted to ask opinions of the experienced Mooney fliers here before I pay for the PPI and find that it isn't worth moving forward.  The PPI is going to cost me $1400 - I hate to throw that money away if there are obvious signs that I shouldn't move forward - but this group may tell me that I concerned about nothing.

THANK YOU for your advice...

 

 

Johnson Bar.pdf

Tank.pdf

Pucks Nose.pdf

[Marauder]

5 minutes ago, ValkyrieRider said:

I am a brand new member, and very hopeful to be a Mooney M20(C-?) owner in the next few weeks.  I have loved the Mooney since becoming a PP, 13 years ago, although I have never flown one.  Actually, currently I don't have a complex endorsement, but the instructor I am working on IFR training will shift to that immediately after purchase.  I am looking to purchase a '65 - '72 Mooney, and have found a few '67 and '68 that are in my price range.  So the couple questions I have for this experienced group:

    1.  I have a different instructor that is telling me that I should not purchase a '68 with cash, because I will be using it weekly to get to an office 300 miles away, and I can't afford for it to be down.  He said that it wouldn't be reliable, and I should consider taking out a loan and purchasing an 1980+ Cessna 182, because it would be more reliable and not need the level of constant work to keep it in the air.

    2.  I have looked at a couple '68 M20C's, one that is closest to my house shows a LOT of signs of age, compared to others.  There are a couple areas that cause a little alarm (although, uneducated because I have never owned an older Mooney), such as there is a little pitting and rusting on the flap handle and the Johnson bar.  I would think that they shouldn't have rust on them, but maybe I am wrong (I will post a picture for reference).

    3.  The second picture is of a removable plate on the left wing, near the fuel fill tank hole, that has gunk all around it.  It is the only one I see like this, but it concerned me.  I was also surprised that the owners didn't clean it up prior to me coming to look at the plane.  They seem like great people, but that doesn't alleviate my concern.  Any thoughts on this?

    4.  The last picture would be of the pucks, would these need to be changed immediately, or is this a standard look?  

I will definitely get a PPI, as I see most recommend on this site, but wanted to ask opinions of the experienced Mooney fliers here before I pay for the PPI and find that it isn't worth moving forward.  The PPI is going to cost me $1400 - I hate to throw that money away if there are obvious signs that I shouldn't move forward - but this group may tell me that I concerned about nothing.

THANK YOU for your advice...

 

 

Johnson Bar.pdf

Tank.pdf

Pucks Nose.pdf

I suspect the Johnson bar is the chrome peeling off. Others who own planes with J bars will be able to comment on the situaiton. The picture of the inspection plate looks like someone removed it for some reason and what you are seeing is the sealant oozing out after they replaced it. 

The pucks look like they are original. The best way to determine this is to look for the date code on them. It will stamped into the rubber.

[cctsurf]

I agree with @bluehighwayflyer, I can't see enough from those pictures to know what kind of plane you are looking at.  It's like the old fable where 3 blind guys got to touch 1 part of an elephant and tell about the elephant.  We don't know enough about the airplane from those pictures to tell you much.  Painting without covering things is not cool...that doesn't mean that the airplane should be tossed aside.  A broad summary of what advice you will get here: 1. get a PPI,  2. a PPI is not a guarantee, but it helps to know what you are getting into.  3. don't purchase that airplane, it seems that no airplane offered as a possibility here is worthy of purchase.

A cessna vs a Mooney on a mooney board...  you're always going to be pushed toward a Mooney.  Personally I don't think there is much reliability difference between a 50-60 year old Mooney and a 40 year old Cessna, although I have to say I love the Johnson Bar retract compared to the dead grasshopper retract mechanism on the cessnas.  If this is going to be a daily flyer, you have to treat it as such, so no cheaping out.  OTOH, my '62 'c is quite reliable.  I'm having some fun right now, but I have put a lot of hours on it since the last time it was down for work.

I also have to chuckle at your request for "Trusted Advice" from a bunch of strangers...

Hope that is helpful and not too of a rant.

Edited April 8, 2018 by cctsurf
blind

[TTaylor]

Welcome to MooneySpace!  General things that will help you here are updating your profile with location so you can tap into local knowledge, and posting specifics on the plane rather than a few pictures.  The group here has great skills at researching and dissecting any aircraft.  Warning, no airplane will be good enough for the group. You have to decide what is good enough for you.

Back to your questions:

 A well maintained Mooney 20C should be no less reliable than brand C.

The pictures you posted show a general lack of pride of ownership in maintanance, cleaning and workmanship.   

The Mooney 20c will fly faster than most C182's at 9 gph versus 12 to 13 gph for the 182. 

 

[lamont337]

Johnson bar: Years of sweat/oil from hands can do that to the finish i suppose. If the finish is that much of an eye sore the parts can probably be removed during annual and re-chromed. DIY kits exist, or perhaps a local motorcycle shop can help you out. Discuss with your future mechanic. What really caught my eye is the slight wear mark in the down lock block. A worn block can possibly lead to the gear bar coming loose unexpectedly. The inside of the block can be inspected with the plane on jacks and looking up into the block. Replacement block if necessary is $390 from Lasar. Nice picture of a worn one on their page: https://lasar.com/mods/

Fuel tank panel: Obviously removed and reinstalled at some point as mentioned above. Logs will hopefully tell you how long ago. If it wasn't logged it would be a pretty big red flag for me. Tank repairs are expensive.

Pucks: Given the flexible nature of the shock disk we shouldn't expect the paint to stay put. As @Hyett6420 says above, the condition of the rubber is more important. If anything the paint hides that condition from inspection. The proper way to measure the compression is outlined in the maintenance manual, screen shot below. How did the rest of the wheel well look?

[KLRDMD]

As a general rule, do not take airplane purchasing advice from a CFI.

[Urs_Wildermuth]

Don't know, my CFI did give me very sound advice on buying my Mooney.

I am not quite clear on whether the pics the OP shows here are of the airplane he wants to buy or some other. If they are of some other airplane, they have no significance to what he wants to buy. There are neglected planes around all over the place and once neglect has set in, brand does not matter too much. The most important thing when looking for a used plane is to find one which is technically sound and well cared for.

I agree that a well cared for M20C is as dependable and a sight cheaper to run and maintain than a lot of other planes, it is the plane with most bang for buck in the GA market.

The primary thing any new owner has to look for is a well kept model which does not need too many upgrades and has decent engine/prop time left. Any airplane you might want to purchase should pass a pre-purchase inspection by an independent Mooney-savvy mechanic or better a Mooney Service Center.

[ValkyrieRider]

2 hours ago, lamont337 said:

Johnson bar: Years of sweat/oil from hands can do that to the finish i suppose. If the finish is that much of an eye sore the parts can probably be removed during annual and re-chromed. DIY kits exist, or perhaps a local motorcycle shop can help you out. Discuss with your future mechanic. What really caught my eye is the slight wear mark in the down lock block. A worn block can possibly lead to the gear bar coming loose unexpectedly. The inside of the block can be inspected with the plane on jacks and looking up into the block. Replacement block if necessary is $390 from Lasar. Nice picture of a worn one on their page: https://lasar.com/mods/

Fuel tank panel: Obviously removed and reinstalled at some point as mentioned above. Logs will hopefully tell you how long ago. If it wasn't logged it would be a pretty big red flag for me. Tank repairs are expensive.

Pucks: Given the flexible nature of the shock disk we shouldn't expect the paint to stay put. As @Hyett6420 says above, the condition of the rubber is more important. If anything the paint hides that condition from inspection. The proper way to measure the compression is outlined in the maintenance manual, screen shot below. How did the rest of the wheel well look?

 

Thank you for the information.  The rest of the wheel well looked dirty, oily, and a little pitting.  They are currently on a private gravel runway, which may cause some of the pitting if rocks are hitting the unit - however, I have never seen it land there, so I wouldn't know if that caused it.  As mentioned above, I am not sure about the reason for taking that panel off, and, I hadn't thought to ask to see the maintenance logs specifically to look for the reason.  Great information, thanks for the diagram.

[ValkyrieRider]

4 hours ago, cctsurf said:

I agree with @bluehighwayflyer, I can't see enough from those pictures to know what kind of plane you are looking at.  It's like the old fable where 3 blind guys got to touch 1 part of an elephant and tell about the elephant.  We don't know enough about the airplane from those pictures to tell you much.  Painting without covering things is not cool...that doesn't mean that the airplane should be tossed aside.  A broad summary of what advice you will get here: 1. get a PPI,  2. a PPI is not a guarantee, but it helps to know what you are getting into.  3. don't purchase that airplane, it seems that no airplane offered as a possibility here is worthy of purchase.

A cessna vs a Mooney on a mooney board...  you're always going to be pushed toward a Mooney.  Personally I don't think there is much reliability difference between a 50-60 year old Mooney and a 40 year old Cessna, although I have to say I love the Johnson Bar retract compared to the dead grasshopper retract mechanism on the cessnas.  If this is going to be a daily flyer, you have to treat it as such, so no cheaping out.  OTOH, my '62 'c is quite reliable.  I'm having some fun right now, but I have put a lot of hours on it since the last time it was down for work.

I also have to chuckle at your request for "Trusted Advice" from a bunch of strangers...

Hope that is helpful and not too of a rant.

 

"Trusted" is correct .  I don't personally know any Mooney pilots, so the information I get is from people that are less knowledgeable than I am ... which is pretty low.  Just reading this forum over the last couple months, I feel like I know some of you guys, and yes, I definitely trust your opinion over mine or other non-Mooniacs.  Thanks for your information.

[ValkyrieRider]

2 hours ago, KLRDMD said:

As a general rule, do not take airplane purchasing advice from a CFI.

I had never heard that before.  I am starting to understand that and believe it though.  

[KLRDMD]

6 minutes ago, ValkyrieRider said:

I had never heard that before.  I am starting to understand that and believe it though.  

As a general rule, don't take advice from CFIs on engine operations either. *Most* CFIs have never owned an airplane and only have flown rentals. But an average student (or even private) pilot only knows his CFI who's far most experienced than them in all things aviation so I see the temptation.

Fortunately, you have a number of CFIs on MS that have owned airplanes and you can take their advice.

[ValkyrieRider]

THANK YOU all for the very quick responses, and your valuable opinions.  Some of my concerns were set aside, as I assumed, if the Johnson bar was pitting that it meant that there were moisture issues, but as was pointed out, it could just be the chrome peeling off from handling for many years.  And that would tie into what TTaylor said, that it shows a general lack of pride rather than a moisture issue.  the fact that they knew I was coming to look at it, and it wasn't in the best (cleanest) condition it could be in, even though their hanger is attached to their house, may give me an indication of the care or pride in ownership.  

[Yetti]

Where are you?  Updating your profile will help people maybe go take a look with you.   Mooney's are great traveling machines.  182s are great SUVs of the sky. 

You are looking for cracks on the chocks

Fill the tanks to the top and then come back after a day or two and find out if the tanks are good.

 

[Yetti]

What you are more worried about is the condition of the aluminum and paint in the wheel wells.  It's an easy check for larger issues.

[ValkyrieRider]

43 minutes ago, David Herman said:

We purchased a very nicely kept 1965 M20C five years ago. 

1. I respectfully disagree that a C brand will require less maintenance than an M brand. Or than a B brand either for that matter. I will say the 182 has a greater load capability, but at the cost of fuel and speed. There are a couple very nice 182s at my home field ... I am friends with the owners and have flown in one or two over the years. I also instructed in a 182 a time or two when I was instructing. If your mission requires four people and their bags ... the 182 might be more of what you require? While the 182 may seem easier to fly if you are coming from 152s or 172s, it is more nose heavy and requires more attention. The Mooney may “seem” harder to fly,  at first, but in actuality ... it’s a very simple and mostly forgiving aircraft to fly. Because of the low-wing, low to the ground, slick laminar flow wing, the Mooney will require some initial adjustments to your flying technique, but once you have made the transition correctly ... again, it’s a very easy airplane to fly. 

2. The rust/ peeling chrome does not concern me (yes it needs to be addressed) but as a previous poster said, the worn bracket does concern me. I would replace that immediately. 

3. Needs to be cleaned up. As a previous poster said ... the plane shows a general lack of care ... if things like this are left un-addressed.

4. Those are not the original pucks, but being painted does show a lack of quality, attention to detail work. That concerns me. The logs should tell you when they were replaced. 

Conclusion:  you have only shown us the bad points of one airplane- so I won’t “throw it under the bus” just yet, but I must tell you that I passed on airplanes with uncorrected defects like these, until I found an airplane that showed a greater amount of care. As a previous poster said ... choose carefully. 

There are some items unique to Mooney’s that can cost you some $$$ ... and those are worth a quick mention. First not unique is: engine time, paint, avionics, interior and our worst enemy - corrosion. 

Unique to Mooney’s, 1)fuel tanks leaking, 2) corrosion to the tubular frame due to leaking windows and non-compliance with an AD requiring insulation change, 3) condition of landing gear shock disks, 4) condition of the nose gear upper truss; the Mooney turning radius is narrower than many planes, the upper truss can be bent/dented by FBOs turning the aircraft to sharply while under tow. 

There are also ADs associated with Hartzell Prop Hubs, ECI cylinders ... and other items that you might want become familiar with before closing a purchase. As mentioned before a thorough pre-purchase inspection and logbook review by a knowledgeable Mooney mechanic is a must.

Good Luck ... we love our M20C ... no regrets whatsoever. It’s a great plane if it fits your mission. 

 

SOUND advise, thank you.  I will spend a little more time on the Unique Mooney issues, as well as the others, but the general consensus seems to want to pass on an airplane, that may or may not be sound, if it shows a lack of care.

[ValkyrieRider]

8 minutes ago, KLRDMD said:

As a general rule, don't take advice from CFIs on engine operations either. *Most* CFIs have never owned and airplane and only have flown rentals. But an average student (or even private) pilot only knows his CFI who's far most experienced than them in all things aviation so I see the temptation.

Fortunately, you have a number of CFIs on MS that have owned airplanes and you can take their advice.

 

Again, spot on with my thinking.  I would trust my CFI, because he has a ton more experience flying, but may not know much about ownership.  Thank you.

[Guitarmaster]

J-bar chrome coming off... not a big deal

Fuel tank panel... looks like an ugly repair, but if not leaking.  I would want to know specifics.

The lack of time spent to mask the pucks when the gear was painted would bug me.  In my head, I would be thinking, what else was cheaped-out on?  

It's probably a fine airplane, but.... 

Some food for thought:

What kind of condition was the owner's car in?  How about the hanger?  It sounds silly, but our approach to aircraft maintenance largely mirrors our maintenance on our vehicles.  If I was in the market and the owner showed up in a dirty car with trash all over the interior, I would be questioning their meticulousness in the care of the airplane.  Not saying the two are always synonymous, but most of time they are.

Flip-side; if I was trying to sell my plane, I have it polished and vacuumed with all the logs at hand and organized. 

Are you looking at this one because of price, or because it fits your mission?  An airframe is just a container for the engine and avionics.  I wish I had spent more up front to get the panel I wanted.  

Do yourself a favor and look at several more before making a decision.   Get a feel for the different owners' pride of ownership.   You can tell a lot from a simple phone call.   Also, find all of the copies of the model you are looking at and run a spreadsheet of purchase cost of each.  Remove the high and the low then average the prices.  This is probably the best way to price an airplane.  Once you get the mean price, add or subtract for condition.

Good luck and welcome to Mooneyspace!

[bonal]

I think how an airplane is maintained is more important than its age. Ours is a 64 which is outside your window but I can tell you it's dispatch rate has been almost 100% for the five years we have owned it.

[Vance Harral]

A couple of folks above have suggested the brown staining around the fuel tank access panel is sealant "oozing out" from a prior R&R job.

Maybe.  But it's more likely to be fuel seeping through the access panel from degrading sealant.  The blue dye in 100LL fuel turns reddish-brown over time and leaves these sorts of stains.  Significant leaks show blue staining, but very small leaks (or leaks that have been recently cleaned of blue staining) show only reddish-brown marks at seams.  I know this from observing our own airplane, which has had  access panel seeps over the years.  For another example, see the first half of the attached video, which shows significant Mooney fuel tank weeping.  The reddish-brown stains in the video aren't rust, they're what's left when the blue dye dries and desiccates.

 

 

[gsxrpilot]

Just a couple of quick points. You've already gotten some great advice here.

I don't think you mentioned what your budget is? It might be counterintuitive but the best "deal" you'll find on a vintage airplane, will be the nicest one you can find. For example, the best financial deal you'll find on an M20C will be the best equipped, best cared for, and possibly the most expensive one listed for sale. If you're looking at an M20C because it's a "good price" you're probably looking at the wrong one.  I'd want to spend between $45K and $55K for an M20C. That should buy you the nicest one for sale anywhere in the country. Which over the course of the first year, will likely turn out to be the best financial deal.

Second... I agree you don't want to spend the money on a pre-buy for an obviously poor candidate. There are several Mooney owners on this forum that live in Phoenix. I'd ask them to go look at the plane with you. If you need a flight physical, go see Dr Chuck Crinnian in Scottsdale http://www.aviationdoc.net/about.html. He's a VERY knowledgeable and long time Mooney owner. He might be convinced to take a look at it with you.

[N9201A]

As a general rule, do not take airplane purchasing advice from a CFI.

Cirrus had what seemed to me to be a very effective incentive program under which many CFIs steered student pilots looking for their first bird into a Cirrus. I always wonder had Mooney done that, whether we’d be a bigger share of the market today.

IMHO, I would not less influenced in whether to buy a Mooney by someone without relevant and significant experience owning/flying one. And that’s what MS offers in abundance!

A well-maintained C should be no harder/expensive to maintain than any 172 or 182. Some mechanics may charge more because they are less familiar, or the accessibility is worse. So find a Mooney-friendly A&P.

+1 on finding a nice bird, “bargain” hunting can be risky. If your goal is to fly it (as opposed to steal + flip), find one you can fly without incident right away and for a while.

[SantosDumont]

You didn't say what your price range was but I bought my Mooney 2 years ago for a very similar mission.  From what I've learned over the past 2 years is buy the nicest plane that you can afford.  Don't settle for flying junk around that is going to cost $$$ to fix, or think that you will upgrade it later.  It will cost 2x the price of the plane to upgrade it.

If you are planning to use the plane for IFR, then buy a plane that already has a WAAS GPS.  Extra points if it already has ADS-B.  The three things I was looking for my first airplane:

1. Johnson bar (don't want to have to deal with electric gear failure)
2. GPS
3. Autopilot

Those three things on a M20C you're probably looking at $50k, maybe $55 if its super nice and has been hangared all its life.

The other piece of advice I can give you is think of how much money you are planning on spending in maintenance per year on the plane.  Triple that number.  That is the real number and what it takes to fly a 50 year old plane around and keep it airworthy.

[gsxrpilot]

1 hour ago, SantosDumont said:

If you are planning to use the plane for IFR, then buy a plane that already has a WAAS GPS.  Extra points if it already has ADS-B.  The three things I was looking for my first airplane:

1. Johnson bar (don't want to have to deal with electric gear failure)
2. GPS
3. Autopilot

Start there... BTW the GPS must be a 430 WAAS at minimum.  And the autopilot must be an Stec 30 minimum.

M20C's or E's that don't have those three should be crossed off the list. You might have to look a bit, but finding this plane and paying top dollar for it will save you tens of thousands in the first couple of years.

[SantosDumont]

6 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

Start there... BTW the GPS must be a 430 WAAS at minimum.  And the autopilot must be an Stec 30 minimum.

M20C's or E's that don't have those three should be crossed off the list. You might have to look a bit, but finding this plane and paying top dollar for it will save you tens of thousands in the first couple of years.

True words. Don’t make my mistake and think a old KLN 89B is good enough.  Looking at doing a 30k panel upgrade to get WAAS, ADS-B, and since I’m burning money might as well buy all the goodies. 

[MyNameIsNobody]

6 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

Start there... BTW the GPS must be a 430 WAAS at minimum.  And the autopilot must be an Stec 30 minimum.

M20C's or E's that don't have those three should be crossed off the list. You might have to look a bit, but finding this plane and paying top dollar for it will save you tens of thousands in the first couple of years.

Really Paul?  Really?  I understand you have a strong opinion on this but walking away from an otherwise solid airframe is not good advise.  You gave your opinion, I have given mine.  Nothing personal beyond a difference in opinion.