The engine overhaul

[Dream to fly]

12 minutes ago, Antares said:

These were my bearings

That makes me crazy to see that.  How many hours are on those? 

[FloridaMan]

Just now, Dream to fly said:

That makes me crazy to see that.  How many hours are on those? 

2100-2200 SFOH. I noticed a 5psi drop in oil pressure. About six months later the lifters started making metal. The engine shop called me and sent those pics saying it was one of the worst engines they’d ever seen. 

Its doubtful I would have even noticed the oil pressure issue without the advanced engine monitor. 

Edited December 15, 2017 by Antares

[gitmo234]

Just now, Antares said:

2100-2200 SFOH. I noticed a 5psi drop in oil pressure. About six months later the lifters started making metal. The engine shop called me and sent those pics saying it was one of the worst engines they’d ever seen. 

Its doubtful I would have even noticed the oil pressure issue without the advanced engine monitor. 

Funny you should say that. When I started out I checked oil pressure. All good. did my normal run up, checked it again. When flying I was doing my scan. That time it didnt include looking at that. Something in my head said... like an actual voice "NO....check EVERYTHING this time" and that's when I noticed oil pressure dropping slowly

[cliffy]

Ya want to stop the spalling?  Go roller tappet.

Ya want to lower  the price?  Get rid of lawyers and the byzantine certification process. OH wait, we have experimental class for that. 

If the Feds are going to "certify" that a particular airframe or engine is "safe" then we will remain spinning our wheels.  

 

If we could divorce the instrument panel from the rest of the "certified" airframe/engine combo with just a label visible to all, saying something like- "the airplane uses non-certified instruments and radios", then, maybe, we could make some progress. Leave the airframe and engine certified and to remain so but bring in new technology electronics. Safety would not be compromised.

[MyNameIsNobody]

On 12/13/2017 at 2:25 PM, PTK said:

Hence my coining the term scam-guard... i.e. perfectly good Federal Reserve notes down the used oil bucket! 

 

You are a broken record on CamGuard.  Really don’t give a flying F%$^what you put in your engine.  Just thought I would update you on that.  In fact, I really don’t give a flying F^&* about your opinion on oil additives generally or specifically regarding CamGuard.

I feel better about having said that just like you must “feel better” about trying to save everyone from the apparent waste of money by using CamGuard.

[MyNameIsNobody]

On 12/13/2017 at 3:13 PM, Sabremech said:

I’ll become a believer in Additives when I start hearing it from the engine shops that do overhauls.  They’re the ones who’ll see if it works or not and right now, that’s not what they’re seeing.

 

We shall see on my test subject.  That is the only one I care about.  My engine is now 12 years and 700 hours into an overhaul with oversized Cylinders.  Low use.  A lot of sitting.  A perfect test candidate for LOP and CamGuard.

[N201MKTurbo]

9 hours ago, Antares said:

These were my bearings

You get premier membership in the CB club! 

You got every dollar out of that engine. You didn't leave one hour on the table! 

Seriously, you listened to your engine telling you it was sick and fixed it. Nothing wrong with that.

If you got 2200 hours out of that engine, I wouldn't change anything you are doing.

[FloridaMan]

Aero Engines of Winchester did the overhaul and I could not be happier with them. Seriously, if anyone is thinking about getting a shop to do their overhaul, send me a message and I will call you and sing their praises for all the good things they have done. 

The previous engine was overhauled in 1994. I bought the plane in 2012 with 1100 hours on it. I run rich of peak at 10-11gph (ram air open) or 9-10 (closed). WOT/2500 usually. I used to run full rich to 4000ft, but now with the engine monitor after takeoff I lean until I see EGT start to rise just a little and then lean some more above 4000ft. I run 2700RPM until cruise altitude, overshoot slightly descend to level, wait for my airspeed to come up and reduce to WOT/2500. The only exceptions are that I run 2700RPM above 15,000ft, and if LOP allows me to make my destination where I otherwise would need a fuel stop, I’ll run LOP. As another Mooney owner who has a Pilatus and an A36 put it to me, “you’re only burning 10 gallons an hour to begin with.” 

[Sabremech]

11 hours ago, MyNameIsNobody said:

We shall see on my test subject.  That is the only one I care about.  My engine is now 12 years and 700 hours into an overhaul with oversized Cylinders.  Low use.  A lot of sitting.  A perfect test candidate for LOP and CamGuard.

Only 1300 hours to go and maybe 23 more years. I’ll probably be done with flying by then. 

[Guest]

21 hours ago, Antares said:

These were my bearings

What did the crankshaft look like?

Clarence

[mike_elliott]

On 12/13/2017 at 1:44 PM, jetdriven said:

I never said that. But I did say it was an anti corrosive agent and helps extend the time between flying before corrosion sets in to around 14 days vs as little as 3. Perhaps they need to make an extra strength version for the IO360 since just about every one spalls out. 

I know of a plane that was flown every week without fail and within a 400 hrs, the lifters and cam were shot. IO360. Perhaps we should look further than corrosion as the only failure cause of "we dont need no steenkin" cam lubrication Lycomings. Corrosion is a convenient whippin' boy, however, and this one lived in Florida too boot, albeit only a few miles from safe Georgia 

[jetdriven]

Yep. Aside from roller lifters nobody has cured this widespread problem. Perhaps the DLC coated Lycoming lifters will. 

[FloridaMan]

There is a modification by Firewall Forward where they drill holes in the lobes. I believe the theory is that the holes retain oil and reduce wear at startup. I’ve also heard that many shops prefer parts made by Superior to Lycoming. 

[cliffy]

IIRC its a drilled passageway to provide pressure lubrication of the upslope area of the cam to reduce wear and friction. I don't have any info on if it works. 

[Dream to fly]

I feel really passionate about this and I would think if a group of us got together put our feelings aside I bet as a group we could fix the problem. Actually I know we could but it will take more than me to get the ball started.

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[cnoe]

IIRC its a drilled passageway to provide pressure lubrication of the upslope area of the cam to reduce wear and friction. I don't have any info on if it works. 

 

Without a (pressurized) pre-oiler this doesn’t solve the problem. Even Centrilube (the STC holder) says it’ll take up to 15 seconds at cold startup to get oil through the cam and onto the lobes.

 

Some of our engines have nozzles (when Lycoming doesn’t forget to install them) that spray the piston skirts (and maybe the cam) as oil pressure comes up. You can also add them as an STC (see http://www.chuckneyent.com/neynozzle.asp ) if you like.

 

Neither of these mods solves the issue of flash rust on a cam at startup. IMO, without a pre-oiler they’re both a waste of money.

 

I agree with Byron, Mike, Clarence (and others) that poor metallurgy is a significant contributing factor. Anecdotal evidence of Lycoming's new DLC-coated tool-steel tappets looks favorable; time will tell.

 

In the meantime I’ll fly frequently, use camguard, preheat when it’s cold, startup at 1000-1200 rpm, and use an engine dehydrator when possible.

 

 

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[Guest]

Lycoming’s biggest concern is getting the engine past the warranty period, which is pathetically short compared to a modern automobile.  After that it’s the consumers problem.

Clarence

[Bob_Belville]

On 12/15/2017 at 8:01 AM, N6758N said:

You don't know enough pilots yet, those guys are out there, trust me.

+1, you beat me with this reply, ask your A&P shop, he deals with guys all the time who want to fix a prop with duct tape or similar.

[Dream to fly]

+1, you beat me with this reply, ask your A&P shop, he deals with guys all the time who want to fix a prop with duct tape or similar.

Then attrition from being stupid will solve the problem automatically. It's a win. Same with OSHA.

Sent from my E6810 using Tapatalk

[Bob_Belville]

1 minute ago, Dream to fly said:

Then attrition from being stupid will solve the problem automatically. It's a win. Same with OSHA.

Sent from my E6810 using Tapatalk
 

Sadly, I suspect that "stupid" is about as ubiquitous as PT Barnum's "sucker" (one born every minute) and Jesus' "poor" (who you'll always have with you).

[Dream to fly]

Sadly, I suspect that "stupid" is about as ubiquitous as PT Barnum's "sucker" (one born every minute) and Jesus' "poor" (who you'll always have with you).

What sucks is I know that on this forum there is enough knowledge to overcome this. However I don't know how to harness it to make it viable. For far too long it's been accepted that car bodies will rot because of salt, engines will fail because of metallurgy failure and the reason is "because it does". Rust/corrosion can be prevented in most if not all vehicles and rotating engine components can be made to last. The proof is out there.

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[jetdriven]

I don’t think it’s the cams I think it’s the lifters that are rusting and pitting, then spalling. Or poor metallurgy in which the hardened surface potholes out from fatigue also due to poor materials, but either way I see a lot of terrible lifters that come out of engines with cams that really don’t look all that bad. 

Camguard has been proven to delay the onset of corrosion on steel engine parts. One other thing it works very well is an engine dehydrator. No water, no rust.  These will help with the  poor metal rusting early issue. Nothing will help if the lifters fatigue out. 

Edited December 16, 2017 by jetdriven

[PTK]

43 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

... No water, no rust...

Along these lines I think it’s very important to be sure the oil is dry. Oil temps need to be sufficiently high for condenced water in the oil to be boiled out. I think we need to actually check the oil temp gauge to be sure it reads accurately. The magic number is 180 to 200°F.

[ArtVandelay]

Along these lines I think it’s very important to be sure the oil is dry. Oil temps need to be sufficiently high for condenced water in the oil to be boiled out. I think we need to actually check the oil temp gauge to be sure it reads accurately. The magic number is 180 to 200°F.

I remove the dip stick after a flight, allows the trapped water vapor to escape. Don’t know how much it helps but it costs nothing.

[Yetti]

Poor Gitmo234 was just going to talk about how he spent his christmas money and got a additive metallurgy debate