Winter Operation

[ShuRugal]

4 minutes ago, teejayevans said:

Your post had same time stamp, well done.

while you have calculator out, my google fu says it’s 4.625” diameter.  

Also, lets talk shock cooling, assume aluminum cylinder head is 200° cooler than the steel barrel, how much is the difference there, assuming 5” outter diameter of the barrel.

My previous numbers may have been off a bit, missed a 0 in thermal exp coefficient.

 

Calculating for 4.625" piston, std day vs -40

Cylinder, 10 thou diameter added as a SWAG for cold tolerance:

 

Diameter delta = 2 thou.

 

 

As far as shock cooling... The only thing I have to say there is "does your engine explode when you pass through rain or a cloud?"

There is no condition, ever, where your jugs will be 200F cooler than your liners, provided they are installed in the engine at the time the measurement is taken:  Aluminum has a wicked high thermal conductivity, ~200 watts per meter kelvin, vs 15 for stainless steel.  The jugs will pull heat out of the liners faster than the liners can pull heat out of the combustion gasses.  The fact that aluminum has nearly twice the thermal capacity (900 joules per kg*K vs ~500), and the fact that the mass of aluminum in the jugs is an order of magnitude greater than the mass of the liner (guessing there, don't know the actual weights on that) contributes to this.

 

[DXB]

While we're on the topic of winterizing, what do the experts think about an oil cooler heater?  It's offered by Reiff as an $110 option as part of their system:

http://www.reiffpreheat.com/Oil cooler heater.htm

Their reasoning is that cold sludged oil in the cooler can be immobile and will create big oscillating spikes in pressure that can both damage the vernatherm bypass and the cooler itself, with the worst case being catastrophic rupture of the oil cooler when going to full power.  

I just put in the Reiff turpb XP system but didn't bother with this option. My reasoning (1) I always run multigrade (Phillips XC 20W50) in the winter, limiting the risk of immobile sludge in the cooler (2) I see cold temps in my area but seldom <<20F extreme cold temps, in which case I am generally in no mood to fly anyway.

But an exploding oil cooler would ruin ones day.  Any related opinions/experience?

[aviatoreb]

7 hours ago, Marauder said:

You should host a fly-in for a warm winter month and let them enjoy the balming -20F days.

Ok!  Fly in at Kptd feb 3, 2018!

you will love the rate of climb on a nice “crisp” winters day.  I can peg the asi at maximum that cannon read values >2000fpm

[Hank]

@DXB, I just have a Tanis oil pan heater, and never had issues living on the Ohio River between Ohio and West Virginny. I flew most weeks in winter, ice and snow permitting, for seven years (July 2007 -- Jan 2014) when I moved back to Alabama. Even Allentown, PA in the January snow wasn't a problem, stopped for 2 days, left ~8:00 pm to escape (bad, snowy) weather moving in . . .

I'd be surprised if Philly is cold enough to need an oil cooler heater.

[N201MKTurbo]

4 hours ago, DXB said:

While we're on the topic of winterizing, what do the experts think about an oil cooler heater?  It's offered by Reiff as an $110 option as part of their system:

http://www.reiffpreheat.com/Oil cooler heater.htm

Their reasoning is that cold sludged oil in the cooler can be immobile and will create big oscillating spikes in pressure that can both damage the vernatherm bypass and the cooler itself, with the worst case being catastrophic rupture of the oil cooler when going to full power.  

I just put in the Reiff turpb XP system but didn't bother with this option. My reasoning (1) I always run multigrade (Phillips XC 20W50) in the winter, limiting the risk of immobile sludge in the cooler (2) I see cold temps in my area but seldom <<20F extreme cold temps, in which case I am generally in no mood to fly anyway.

But an exploding oil cooler would ruin ones day.  Any related opinions/experience?

The oil pressure regulator is between the oil pump and the oil cooler. If it was completely plugged the regulator would just dump the oil back in the sump.

If the oil is very cold you could exceed the system's design pressure if you went to a high RPM before the oil heated up. This is because the high viscosity oil cannot flow through the passages in the regulator fast enough at the limit pressure.

I still can't see how it would blow up the oil cooler. The vernatherm will not close until the oil is hot at which point the regulator will be working fine.

The oil coolers in the old Mooney's is below the engine where all the hot air from the engine blows. The new Mooney's have it just above the cylinders and should be heated by radiation from the cylinders. 

It seems like a gimmick to add more clutter to your engine compartment.

[carusoam]

i don't close off any portion of the oil cooler...

For that reason, I don't preheat the oil in the oil cooler...

It Just isn't that cold around here.

Borrowed experience, checked by reading the oilT and oilP gauges...

Best regards,

-a-

[xcrmckenna]

This will be my first winter with my plane, but we had snow on the ground a month ago. I have a Tanis engine heater, a little ceramic heater I run on the inside of the plane “I enjoy sitting in the back seat of the plane holding it letting the cabin warm up” thinking to myself this really is my plane!!!! I have cowl plugs, and a Battery Minder. I have a concord xtra and a high torque starter. I am in an open T hanger.

I’m happy so far with the Tanis heater but I don’t like cylinder 3 doesn’t have a heating probe. Does an A&P need to install an engine heater, or is that something an owner can do? I wouldn’t mind upgrading to the Reiff Turbo xp, but don’t know if it’s worth it.


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[bradp]

I’m curious as to oil viscosity.  I have been running a multi viscosity oil in the winter because it flows well in the cold.  The 100W I’ve avoided because it’s like thick molasses honey sludge in the winter.  Figure it may reach the valve guides if there is some flow.  

[bob865]

I live far enough south we don't really get cold.  The coldest I've personally seen here is 10 degrees one morning before sunrise.  We usually hover right around freezing with normal exceptions throughout the winter.  So my question is, what do you guys consider cold?  At what point do you break out the heaters before starting?

[Guest]

6 hours ago, xcrmckenna said:

This will be my first winter with my plane, but we had snow on the ground a month ago. I have a Tanis engine heater, a little ceramic heater I run on the inside of the plane “I enjoy sitting in the back seat of the plane holding it letting the cabin warm up” thinking to myself this really is my plane!!!! I have cowl plugs, and a Battery Minder. I have a concord xtra and a high torque starter. I am in an open T hanger.

I’m happy so far with the Tanis heater but I don’t like cylinder 3 doesn’t have a heating probe. Does an A&P need to install an engine heater, or is that something an owner can do? I wouldn’t mind upgrading to the Reiff Turbo xp, but don’t know if it’s worth it.


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Tanis makes a heating element for the cylinder with the CHT probe, it is a bolt.  You remove one intake flange bolt and replace it, and plug it into the Tanis harness.

Clarence 

Edited November 3, 2017 by M20Doc

[aviatoreb]

11 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

Ok!  Fly in at Kptd feb 3, 2018!

you will love the rate of climb on a nice “crisp” winters day.  I can peg the asi at maximum that cannon read values >2000fpm

Occasionally there is a period of a week or two in Jan or Feb when I can't fly...because while yes, they do a really good job of plowing the taxiways - mostly for the UPS plane that comes in every morning (a big twin turbine) and the medical lift plane that has to be ready to go a the drop of a hat (a turbine Pilatus PC12), for us little guys with low wings (short ...) there is a problem.

The surface of the taxi way they usually do an impressive job of plowing ....there may be some ice but you can get used to that, but sometimes there are snow birms at the side of the runways so you need to stay down the middle or risk a strike with your wings on the snow birms.  If that is not bad enough, you can't get there....sometimes the taxiways which are narrower than the runways are impassible, because the plowing might be on the taxiway surface only in which case the mooney whose wings will be slightly wider than the taxiway surface, won't fit - they would be rubbing against the snow birms.  Sometimes they are 2 or 3 feet high.  Sometimes 3 or 4....SOMETIMES 4 or 5 feet high.  When that happens I simply can't go flying because you can't get to the runway.  Eventually the plow guy gets out there and then plows the taxiway wider, when he has time, but that is lower priority than keeping it clear or the UPS guy and the medical PC12 guy, and they are tall enough to have no problem on those same birms.  So usually there is a period in the middle of the winter when you can't fly for 2 or 3 weeks.  Meh, its usually in the heart of the winter when its kinda cold too. So I go to the hangar and check on the old bird, tucked under its many blankets, put my hand under the cowl cover and check the warmth coming up from the tanis....  Sleeping bear.

[StevenL757]

On 11/1/2017 at 1:40 PM, Marauder said:

I use a Reiff Turbo XP system which includes higher wattage pan heaters and cylinder headers.

Agree.  Along with the oil heater strip option, one of the best purchases I’ve ever made.

Steve

[carusoam]

Important parts of pre-heating... fuel evaporation, lubrication, and tight tolerances...

1) Fuel: Warming the intake parts above 20°F to evaporate 100LL. Warm is good...

2) Oil: Warmer is better.  Hearing valves tapping for a minute, is a long time...  that is a sign that the oil hasn’t spread yet...

3) Metals: Tight tolerances.. It is best to have controlled Starts that maintain proper rpms.  Avoid high rpms...

• Too low rpm: oil doesn't splash around.
• Too fast rpm: Increased stresses at the time when oil isn't circulating perfectly...

4) Some engines have their intake system heated by oil in the sump... heating the oil, warms the intakes.  (O360)

5) Time: Allow time for evaporation to occur prior to start.

 

PP Things I learned along the way, combined with MS experience...

Best regards,

-a-

[steingar]

3 hours ago, bob865 said:

I live far enough south we don't really get cold.  The coldest I've personally seen here is 10 degrees one morning before sunrise.  We usually hover right around freezing with normal exceptions throughout the winter.  So my question is, what do you guys consider cold?  At what point do you break out the heaters before starting?

If I really need to wear a coat, its time to start preheating the airplane.

[bob865]

59 minutes ago, steingar said:

If I really need to wear a coat, its time to start preheating the airplane.

But that is subjective.  My fiance puts on a huge parka at 60F, I'll put on a light jacket at 40-50F, and I hear Canadians, put on long pants at 0 and jackets at -10.

[Hank]

58 minutes ago, bob865 said:

But that is subjective.  My fiance puts on a huge parka at 60F, I'll put on a light jacket at 40-50F, and I hear Canadians, put on long pants at 0 and jackets at -10.

I preheat below 40°F or so. If it's near freezing, she is very hard to start unheated. Pulling into a heated hangar for an hour works well, too.

[steingar]

5 hours ago, bob865 said:

But that is subjective.  My fiance puts on a huge parka at 60F, I'll put on a light jacket at 40-50F, and I hear Canadians, put on long pants at 0 and jackets at -10.

True.  I don't start wearing coats until it hits the forties, which is also where I start preheating the airplane.  To be honest, I preheat mine much warmer than that, usually once it hits the 50's.  But preheating mine is so easy that I might as well.  Moreover, hereabouts when it hits the fifties it could be freezing the next day.  Case in point, I set up the heater last week in the fifties, but flew in the thirties on Tuesday.

[aviatoreb]

No joke / don’t bring the coat that makes you comfortable to walk around between your heated car and your heated hangar and heated plane and brave a chilly preflight.

bring the coat that would do you right if you ever had to have an off field landing and need to spend 3-24 hours trekking out in night winter conditions.  Even if you aren’t wearing it while you fly.  I keep a sleeping bag and bring boots in the plane just in case...

no kidding I do the same when I drive over the adirondacks.

[MIm20c]

14 hours ago, M20Doc said:

Tanis makes a heating element for the cylinder with the CHT probe, it is a bolt.  You remove one intake flange bolt and replace it, and plug it into the Tanis harness.

Clarence 

The old system combined the cht prob with the heating element. The new system uses a separate (jpi/ei) cht probe and a Tanis intake flange bolt heating element.  Both systems seem to work very well but the newer one is probably more durable. 

[L. Trotter]

13 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

Occasionally there is a period of a week or two in Jan or Feb when I can't fly...because while yes, they do a really good job of plowing the taxiways - mostly for the UPS plane that comes in every morning (a big twin turbine) and the medical lift plane that has to be ready to go a the drop of a hat (a turbine Pilatus PC12), for us little guys with low wings (short ...) there is a problem.

The surface of the taxi way they usually do an impressive job of plowing ....there may be some ice but you can get used to that, but sometimes there are snow birms at the side of the runways so you need to stay down the middle or risk a strike with your wings on the snow birms.  If that is not bad enough, you can't get there....sometimes the taxiways which are narrower than the runways are impassible, because the plowing might be on the taxiway surface only in which case the mooney whose wings will be slightly wider than the taxiway surface, won't fit - they would be rubbing against the snow birms.  Sometimes they are 2 or 3 feet high.  Sometimes 3 or 4....SOMETIMES 4 or 5 feet high.  When that happens I simply can't go flying because you can't get to the runway.  Eventually the plow guy gets out there and then plows the taxiway wider, when he has time, but that is lower priority than keeping it clear or the UPS guy and the medical PC12 guy, and they are tall enough to have no problem on those same birms.  So usually there is a period in the middle of the winter when you can't fly for 2 or 3 weeks.  Meh, its usually in the heart of the winter when its kinda cold too. So I go to the hangar and check on the old bird, tucked under its many blankets, put my hand under the cowl cover and check the warmth coming up from the tanis....  Sleeping bear.

Several years ago I was attempting to land in Soda Springs, Idaho (U78). It had recently snowed but the runway had been plowed and there were no issued NOTAM'S. On short final I could see the black asphalt of the runway. However, the runway seemed awful narrow and I ultimately aborted the landing and instead landed in Bear Lake Co (1U7) a few miles away. I drove back to Soda Springs and walked the runway myself. The width of the runway could not have been more than 25 or 30 feet in total. The snowbanks on the sides were over 5 feet high!. Outside of a very small home built or perhaps radio controlled plane, I know of no other aircraft that could have landed safely. 

Lesson learned…Where snow exists, be aware of the adequacy of plowing. This includes path width and bank Heights. They typically are not reported so you will have to look.

[L. Trotter]

21 hours ago, xcrmckenna said:

This will be my first winter with my plane, but we had snow on the ground a month ago. I have a Tanis engine heater, a little ceramic heater I run on the inside of the plane “I enjoy sitting in the back seat of the plane holding it letting the cabin warm up” thinking to myself this really is my plane!!!! I have cowl plugs, and a Battery Minder. I have a concord xtra and a high torque starter. I am in an open T hanger.

I’m happy so far with the Tanis heater but I don’t like cylinder 3 doesn’t have a heating probe. Does an A&P need to install an engine heater, or is that something an owner can do? I wouldn’t mind upgrading to the Reiff Turbo xp, but don’t know if it’s worth it.


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The "5 yr, no questions asked warranty" of the Reiff system requires that it be placed by an A&P.  About 2 hrs ? of time if experienced placing the system.

[yvesg]

Forecast is -1 C for the morning so will use the opportunity to test my winter pre-heat gear. I will post pictures if I can when back.

Yves

[L. Trotter]

A little different perspective on cold climate operation. We've discussed the plane needs- how about people needs. It seems the heater upfront is quite adequate down to about -20 to -30 c. However, those in the back are freezing. Has anybody rigged up a small tube that directs the hot air flow from the center console out flow back to the passengers? Maybe A single tube that "Y's" along the floorboard.

[Guest]

5 hours ago, L. Trotter said:

A little different perspective on cold climate operation. We've discussed the plane needs- how about people needs. It seems the heater upfront is quite adequate down to about -20 to -30 c. However, those in the back are freezing. Has anybody rigged up a small tube that directs the hot air flow from the center console out flow back to the passengers? Maybe A single tube that "Y's" along the floorboard.

The heating system in the newer Mooneys is not up to the task of keeping the plane warm.  The cold air valve on right side has 4 -1/2" hole which allow cold air into the hot air stream, effectively chilling any warm air delivered to the cabin.

Further if you have the hole in your left air vent you have another large leak of cold air on the pilots side.

Clarence

[yvesg]

Pre-heated this morning as planned. Here are two pictures... one with all the equipment on the ground and one with it in action. Note that all fits in the luggage area and when I worry about my options to pre-heat going away I can take it all with me.

Yves