Alan Fox Posted October 9, 2017 Report Share Posted October 9, 2017 1 hour ago, Hyett6420 said: First may i say i am so glad that you are all ok apart from some minor scratchs, some nasty memories and bruising. It could have been so much worse. Its always very interesting to read things from the pilots point of view and see what happened. Your preaching to students is exactly what I say to everyone as well, and what i was taught and its so true. My father also used to use a military phrase of order, counter order = disorder, which also rings true quite often. I dont know whether you know but in the mooney you can exit the baggage door in an emergency as well, not sure if that would have helped but always useful to know. With all those electrics around, the gods were definitely smiling on you that day. Great to have you still with us. So sorry you had a bad flying day. Andrew. The older Mooneys do NOT have a release on the interior of the baggage door , like our J models do.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cooperd0g Posted October 9, 2017 Report Share Posted October 9, 2017 (edited) I practiced power on and off stalls with a CFI prior to ferrying the Mooney home to Florida. But the sensation is all together different when treetops are in your peripheral vision. We were loaded pretty full, but not quite at gross and definitely not over gross. With the three of us and full fuel we could carry an additional 165 lbs. We were about 80 or so pounds under. We don't always practice flying at, or near, gross so I'm sure that was a factor. I shared here because I do believe it is possible to learn from other's mistakes. I read many of the accident reports and it is difficult to see how I would make the same errors, but there are some that I could see myself making in the right conditions. I let a moment of distraction nearly kill my family. Edited October 9, 2017 by Cooperd0g 6 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steingar Posted October 9, 2017 Report Share Posted October 9, 2017 Cooperdog, I am unsurprised that an officer of our military is up front and honest about a crash due to his own mistake. You exemplify what makes our military the envy of the world. Thank you for your honesty and your service to this great nation. I am grateful that you and your family walked away from this harrowing incident, be it luck or the genius of Al Mooney. 13 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob_Belville Posted October 9, 2017 Report Share Posted October 9, 2017 45 minutes ago, Alan Fox said: The older Mooneys do NOT have a release on the interior of the baggage door , like our J models do.... True, but it is possible to pretty easily add a means to open the latch from inside. I know a guy... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanM20C Posted October 9, 2017 Report Share Posted October 9, 2017 Cooperdog, I’m so glad you and your family are OK. Thanks for sharing the story this early on. Your mistake was one any of us could make. Many of us have but were fortune to find terrain that was more forgiving. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 9, 2017 Report Share Posted October 9, 2017 Unless the runway had a catapult, as a newly minted Mooney pilot you had no business going to that airfield with your family on board. 01 2167x45 2042' 19 2167x45 2167' Clarence Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Fox Posted October 9, 2017 Report Share Posted October 9, 2017 Just now, M20Doc said: Unless the runway had a catapult, as a newly minted Mooney pilot you had no business going to that airfield with your family on board. 01 2167x45 2042' 19 2167x45 2167' Clarence Last thing he needs is a lecture from you , Respectfully , if we treat people this way , don't expect others to be so forth-coming in the future.... 19 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slowflyin Posted October 9, 2017 Report Share Posted October 9, 2017 I concur with the group. This read will impact my future ops. Thanks sharing your story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danb Posted October 9, 2017 Report Share Posted October 9, 2017 Totally agree Alan! 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FloridaMan Posted October 9, 2017 Report Share Posted October 9, 2017 (edited) It's an easy enough mistake to make. I'm glad everybody made it out ok. We lost a member here (Patrick) almost six years ago under similar circumstances. There's no Martin-Baker necktie club among Mooney owners, but a number of us, myself included, have walked away from off airport landings that occurred shortly after takeoff. Edited October 9, 2017 by Antares Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PTK Posted October 9, 2017 Report Share Posted October 9, 2017 8 hours ago, M20Doc said: Unless the runway had a catapult, as a newly minted Mooney pilot you had no business going to that airfield with your family on board. 01 2167x45 2042' 19 2167x45 2167' Clarence He admitted he made mistakes. He and his family are the luckiest people on the planet. Let’s all learn from his courage to share. The lesson I take away from this is that 1400 feet may not be enough runway. Especially at or near gross with winds favoring, or at least hinting, a tail wind and DA considerations. 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Fox Posted October 9, 2017 Report Share Posted October 9, 2017 21 minutes ago, PTK said: He admitted he made mistakes. He and his family are the luckiest people on the planet. Let’s all learn from his courage to share. The lesson I take away from this is that 1400 feet may not be enough runway. Especially at or near gross and winds favoring, or at least hinting, a tail wind. Finally in agreement !! 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LANCECASPER Posted October 9, 2017 Report Share Posted October 9, 2017 50 minutes ago, M20Doc said: Unless the runway had a catapult, as a newly minted Mooney pilot you had no business going to that airfield with your family on board. 01 2167x45 2042' 19 2167x45 2167' Clarence The way it was said could be a little more diplomatic but I get your point Clarence - if we trace our thinking back to the first mistake, it helps to see where things started going wrong - error number one was deciding to go in to that field. There are fields you can land in that you can't safely take off from. That's why I always liked the "What I learned" articles in Flying magazine - seeing the first instance where the thought process started to deviate a degree or two. Cooperdog, great job of continuing to fly the airplane as far as it would fly and thank you for letting us know the details - there are lessons in there for each pilot on Mooneyspace. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PTK Posted October 9, 2017 Report Share Posted October 9, 2017 What I’m really interested in is the decision making process. How did he with all his training allow this to happen? What was the thought process and how did his training just go out the window? Is it as simple as a new to him airplane and not taking it seriously? How can some decisions be so perfunctory? When they are supposed to be deliberate and based on our training? Reminds me what we learn and teach in instrument training: always trust your instruments. My old instruments professor drilled it into my head: “If you don't trust your instruments, you will lose control and die.” Similarly we need to trust in and make our decisions based on our training and do not deviate. I’m intetested in this because if it can happen so easily to someone with his credentials it can certainly happen to me. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cooperd0g Posted October 9, 2017 Report Share Posted October 9, 2017 1 minute ago, PTK said: What I’m really interested in is the decision making process. How did he with all his training allow this to happen? What was he thinking and how did all the planning just go out the window? Is it as simple as a new to him airplane and not takng ot seriously? As I mentioned, I planned to back taxi and use all of 19. A person local and familiar with the airport mentioned the option to takeoff 01 with the intersection also as an option. I should have stuck with my original plan. I don't know why I decided to change. Clearly I shouldn't have. It was a lapse in decision making. 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orionflt Posted October 9, 2017 Report Share Posted October 9, 2017 cooper, Glad you and your family are OK. As a retired instructor (blue card) flight engineer in the Navy I know all the training and decision making processes that you are taught and teach. the one thing that is different in GA vs the Navy is consistency. most of our flying scenarios in the Navy had been reviewed and evaluated multiple time, any new scenarios we evaluated before we got there. We also had fellow aviators familiar with our aircraft capabilities to confer with when making many of our decisions. in the GA world that is still available but there is also a lot of info and suggestions being made by people who do not know the capabilities of the aircraft we are currently flying and we need to be able to distinguish the two. with over 6000 hours I use what the Navy has taught me every time I go flying, but I have found myself in similar situation in the past where I have made bad decisions even though I knew better. In my career in the Navy I have had tower offer intersection take offs numerous times, normally we would accept them and go with out recalculating takeoff performance. we took what we already knew and made a decision. most cases we had 3-4 times the runway we needed so it was a non issue. but that is where complacency sneaks in, it's offered you have done it in the past why not now. it is when the trees are squeaking by that you realize that you hadn't reconsidered all the variables. hopefully for most it is a learning lesson for your self and something to pass on to others, in your situation you were not as lucky but you and your family still get to share what you learned. I am sure you will take this lesson back with you and share it with those you fly with and train. Brian P-3 FE FLY NAVY 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonMuncy Posted October 9, 2017 Report Share Posted October 9, 2017 Cooper Thanks for the candor. We all have lapses in judgment. Most of the time there is no real penalty involved. It would probably help if, every time we change a decision in how we are going to do something, we stop and evaluate the possible consequences of that change. That is very easy for me to say, sitting here in my chair, but not so easy in real life. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike_elliott Posted October 9, 2017 Report Share Posted October 9, 2017 CD, Thanks for sharing and debriefing with us. Way too often we like to armchair quarterback the reasons why, which contribute little to the facts. Way too often we have to find a mirror fogging FAA certificated person to lay blame especially when someone isnt mirror fogging any longer. Forgive us for that and hopefully, we as a community, will stay focused on the accident chain and not on blame. I have sent you an email from the Mooney Summit, Inc. We are delighted you are with us, Katie is fine and so is your son. Now you have to start the process of finding a plane all over again 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cooperd0g Posted October 9, 2017 Report Share Posted October 9, 2017 7 minutes ago, DonMuncy said: Cooper Thanks for the candor. We all have lapses in judgment. Most of the time there is no real penalty involved. It would probably help if, every time we change a decision in how we are going to do something, we stop and evaluate the possible consequences of that change. That is very easy for me to say, sitting here in my chair, but not so easy in real life. You are correct, I should have fully evaluated if I felt that was a good option before changing my plan. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cooperd0g Posted October 9, 2017 Report Share Posted October 9, 2017 I shared the story here because I wanted other people to learn and I didn't want to hide anything. That is they way we do mishap reporting in the Navy. I gave the exact same information to the NTSB duty officer and the FAA inspector at the scene after I was out of the hospital. I showed the FAA inspector all of my flight planning, take off performance data, weight and balance, etc. 16 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonMuncy Posted October 9, 2017 Report Share Posted October 9, 2017 Cooper, Did you file the "get out of jail free" report, (I forget the real name), in the unlikely event The FAA should jump you. You may be close to the time limit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cooperd0g Posted October 9, 2017 Report Share Posted October 9, 2017 (edited) 5 minutes ago, DonMuncy said: Cooper, Did you file the "get out of jail free" report, (I forget the real name), in the unlikely event The FAA should jump you. You may be close to the time limit. I know what you are talking about (ASRS via NASA) and no, I did not. I called the NTSB as soon as I was out of the hospital. A couple of hours later the FAA inspector was already at the scene and I went back to talk with him as both he and the NTSB duty officer had requested I do so. I was told that I did not have to answer any questions if I did not want to, but that is not my way. When I was done the FAA inspector said that because of my candor there would likely not be any regulatory action, but there would most likely be a requirement to fly with a CFI for decision making and stall recovery before I could fly as PIC again. I have a feeling this wouldn't really qualify for that anyway. Edited October 9, 2017 by Cooperd0g 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Fox Posted October 9, 2017 Report Share Posted October 9, 2017 8 minutes ago, DonMuncy said: Cooper, Did you file the "get out of jail free" report, (I forget the real name), in the unlikely event The FAA should jump you. You may be close to the time limit. I don't think a "nasa" report applies here.. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Peace Posted October 9, 2017 Report Share Posted October 9, 2017 Thank you for sharing.......Glad everyone is Okay..... Curious if the insurance company will pay out being that you have admitted that it is your fault in such detail..... Who is responsible to pay for the home repairs etc......is it fair to make the insurance pay? If they do pay out I wonder if your premiums will go up on the next airplane if you decide to get one......not sure I would have shared so much of the details before the lawyers got done eating.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cooperd0g Posted October 9, 2017 Report Share Posted October 9, 2017 When I spoke to the insurance claims guy he asked me what happened and I told him. Car insurance still pays if you are at fault. The claims guy said this should all be covered. I will forever have to report this accident and it will likely increase future rates. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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