Garmin product announcement July 18

[Marauder]

14 hours ago, PTK said:

The KI300 looks to be the only option to eliminate vacuum. Any news on the KI300? 

A KI300 and a G5 HSI would be a nice pair.

Ah come on Peter, you know you want a GFC 500. You can dump all that stuff in your panel and add all of these GGs (Garmin Goodies). 

[Greg_D]

The way I’m reading all of this, you would have to not only get two of the G5 units, plus one of the new autopilots to replace the KFC150 on an Ovation.  I’m hoping it’s the cheaper model.  

Just a few years ago, I spent $8500 repairing my autopilot.  I also had to overhaul the KI 256 a year or two later, which was also expensive.  I’m just wondering about the electric trim switch and the altitude preselect on my current unit....would those work with the Garmin autopilots or do they need replacing as well.

I’ll bet the Garmin booth is going to be swamped next week.

[Marauder]

18 hours ago, smccray said:

Okay- nail in the coffin is probably a little much... but the coffin is definitely prepared with the lid close by.  Can I torture the metaphor further?

I hope you have new knowledge of a new product coming- competition is good for us as customers.  The G5 is certainly a competitor to the Aspen 1000 now that it will interface to a legacy autopilot.  Garmin will take a bite out of new Aspen installs, although it remains to be seen how big a bite.  Aspen will of course retain support and service revenue for a while, but not forever- reduce new installs and you stop growing.  Larger aircraft and helicopters are still kept out of the G5 (I think..) but it's a matter of time.  I suspect Aspen is about to reduce the price of the single panel system and the autopilot interface, but I wouldn't buy a 10 year old piece of technology from a single product company that hasn't introduced a new product in a while.

I think what happens in the long run is what Garmin's strategy is. They have a lot invested in the G500 & G600. If there is a strategy to close down that platform, then I could see Garmin adding more capability into the G5 series. But with a reasonable number of G500 installs still being done, adding that capability will parasite some of those sales. Garmin is too smart not to already know the answer to this. It is also the reason Trek told us the G5 doesn't nor does he expect it to be certified as a backup. They obviously with these recent announcements knew where they were headed with the platform.

As for the G5 competing with the Aspen PFD, there is definitely an overlap with Aspen functionality. However as Paul pointed out, there are a number of other functions that Aspen has built in that are more aligned with the current G500 capabilities (like displaying traffic and weather) than the G5. What future capabilities are added to the G5 may shed some light on their strategic direction. If they begin adding features like traffic and weather to the G5, they either intend to migrate from the G500 or perhaps attempt to take market share from Aspen's PFD sales. I think with the price point of the G500 aligns with Aspen 2000 so it makes sense to keep it. And the G5 AI/HSI with additional features may take a piece of Aspen's PFD business. It is a double edge sword since adding too much to the G5 may kill some G500 sales. And every time I stop in my avionics shop I see another Aspen PFD being installed. This isn't lost on Garmin.

BTW - the "10 year old piece of technology" that Aspen uses is still the current technology used. All of these technologies (Aspen PFD, G5, G500, L-3 ESI-500, Sandia Quattro) still use an electronic AHRS supplemented with airspeed to determine attitude. I personally don't have a problem with Aspen focusing on a single platform. Adding value to a solution is not a bad thing. It is bad thing if Garmin's G5 takes a bite out of their business. Competition is good for us consumers... 

[aviatoreb]

Ok - now I want to see a new and inexpensive "G6" which would be a G5 but that displays synthetic vision, just like they can already do on so many platforms, including the ipad/garmin pilot.

[jackn]

Saw this over on BT. Thought it would be useful. 

[toto]

Ooh, thanks @jackn for sharing the visual. That's very helpful.

I will say that the pink ARINC line to the GAD29 from the GTN is annoying - I think of the converter as a way to interface legacy analog equipment with current-generation digital. Granted that makes sense for the ~1998 GNS units. But needing a converter to get from a current-generation navigator to a current-generation autopilot seems sorta crazy. 

 

[smccray]

29 minutes ago, toto said:

Ooh, thanks @jackn for sharing the visual. That's very helpful.

I will say that the pink ARINC line to the GAD29 from the GTN is annoying - I think of the converter as a way to interface legacy analog equipment with current-generation digital. Granted that makes sense for the ~1998 GNS units. But needing a converter to get from a current-generation navigator to a current-generation autopilot seems sorta crazy. 

 

Deleted- found the right installation manual- never mind

Edited July 19, 2017 by smccray

[aviatoreb]

They are going to sell a TON of G5's and G500's.

[PTK]

2 hours ago, Marauder said:

Ah come on Peter, you know you want a GFC 500. You can dump all that stuff in your panel and add all of these GGs (Garmin Goodies). 

Actually I don't feel the urgency to take out my perfectly functioning KFC150! The only thing I would've liked to see is a simple replacement for the KI256. That is what I consider a weakness. The HSI G5 is nice but the real vulnerability is the vacuum dependance. 

[aviatoreb]

3 minutes ago, PTK said:

Actually I don't feel the urgency to take out my perfectly functioning KFC150. The only thing I would've liked to see is a simple replacement for the KI256. That is what I consider a vulnerability. The HSI G5 is nice but the real vulnerability is the vacuum dependance. 

 I don't understand - isn't the new G5 STC capabilities allowing you to replace the KI256 to drive your KFC150?

[PTK]

51 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

 I don't understand - isn't the new G5 STC capabilities allowing you to replace the KI256 to drive your KFC150?

Unfortunately no. The G5 does not provide attitude reference for third party autopilots; it only provides it for the GFC500. Hence the beauty in the simplicity of the KI300.

[MooneyBob]

2 hours ago, Marauder said:

Bob -- I went back to the Aspen site and re-read the AP support. The ACU is required. It appears that an EA 100 can be used but is not required. There may be additional functions that the EA 100 will do that the ACU won't (like a go around button). I think that is what you need to get answered.

Thank you very much for the clarification. ACU is inlcuded with Aspen 1000 PRO, right? 

[smccray]

1 hour ago, Marauder said:

I think what happens in the long run is what Garmin's strategy is. They have a lot invested in the G500 & G600. If there is a strategy to close down that platform, then I could see Garmin adding more capability into the G5 series. But with a reasonable number of G500 installs still being done, adding that capability will parasite some of those sales. Garmin is too smart not to already know the answer to this. It is also the reason Trek told us the G5 doesn't nor does he expect it to be certified as a backup. They obviously with these recent announcements knew where they were headed with the platform.

As for the G5 competing with the Aspen PFD, there is definitely an overlap with Aspen functionality. However as Paul pointed out, there are a number of other functions that Aspen has built in that are more aligned with the current G500 capabilities (like displaying traffic and weather) than the G5. What future capabilities are added to the G5 may shed some light on their strategic direction. If they begin adding features like traffic and weather to the G5, they either intend to migrate from the G500 or perhaps attempt to take market share from Aspen's PFD sales. I think with the price point of the G500 aligns with Aspen 2000 so it makes sense to keep it. And the G5 AI/HSI with additional features may take a piece of Aspen's PFD business. It is a double edge sword since adding too much to the G5 may kill some G500 sales. And every time I stop in my avionics shop I see another Aspen PFD being installed. This isn't lost on Garmin.

BTW - the "10 year old piece of technology" that Aspen uses is still the current technology used. All of these technologies (Aspen PFD, G5, G500, L-3 ESI-500, Sandia Quattro) still use an electronic AHRS supplemented with airspeed to determine attitude. I personally don't have a problem with Aspen focusing on a single platform. Adding value to a solution is not a bad thing. It is bad thing if Garmin's G5 takes a bite out of their business. Competition is good for us consumers... 

I agree.

Aspen has capabilities outlined above which makes sense.  I also suspect FIKI aircraft and pressurized aircraft are going to see a different hurdle to installing these reduced certification avionics (but let's face it- they have a history of working) which retains a portion of the market for the Aspens of the world, but the dual G5 installation will take a bite out of Aspen.  I expect Aspen pricing to come down significantly.

I said this a couple years ago- things are lining up for 2 large avionics companies for piston GA.  Dynon takes the low end, Garmin takes the high end for now with the clear runway to the G1000NXI and the G3000.  Avidyne eventually loses the PFD/MFD market for GA and becomes a stand alone GPS navigator company, likely purchased by Dynon at some point in the future when the revenue stream associated with PFD repairs gets significantly smaller.  Aspen, Trio, TruTrack, JPI, EI, others disappear as major players.  Nothing happens in 2017, or likely even 2018- but 3-5 years out we're going to see a major shake-up.  Companies that have built their businesses on high cost certified avionics pricing (and the associated gross margin) are going to have to transition to a lower gross margin due to reduced certification cost for new players.

Sound crazy?  Maybe... I just hope we see a player emerge that can compete with Garmin long term.  Today, there are limits to connecting Avidyne navigators the Garmin G5 which is too bad.  I can't fault Garmin for making that decision; it certainly increases their cost to include Avidyne, but they see limited benefits as well.  Our community needs an alternative to a closed system architecture for advanced avionics.

 

 

[Jerry 5TJ]

I am glad to have options to replace King autopilots.  If the ~$20K for GFC600 system includes all the boxes and servos to connect my G500 / GTX750 boxes and replace the KFC225 it sounds great.  Next time mine eats another pitch servo I'll strongly consider replacing it. 

[PMcClure]

Just thinking about my aircraft - 15 years old, 530/430 waas with traffic and storm scope, XM weather, soon to be ADS in/out and a KFC 225 A/P. I have the 6 pack gauges, by choice. Aircraft like mine are prime candidates for an upgrade like a G5/KI300 if it could tie with the AP. I don't understand what an Aspen or G500 gives me that I don't already have. I have over 40 hours with a G1000 so I do understand it. The only thing I truly liked about the G1000 was the GFC700 A/P and getting rid of the unreliable King AI. (Although my early experience with the G1000 was not much more reliability). 

A digital AI and A/P would be very attractive to me and I doubt I will ever upgrade to a flat screen panel. However, I am very happy with the KFC 225 for now and won't replace it as long as it works. But could see a cost benefit if I start having to replace servos regularly or I have a critical component failure. But did I read this right that the G500 won't give vertical guidance?

I would think there are a lot of later model A/C in the 1995-2005 pre G1000 era that would be a good fit  for an digital AI driving a current or new digital A/P. And this would not necessarily hurt G500 

[Godfather]

The G5 is not legal to replace the 256 if you have a flight director or if you are FIKI. 

I don't see Garmin updating the G5 beyond what you see today. What we currently have is what was released 3 years ago to the experimental crowd. 

What IMO is really exciting is how easily they were able to certify a non tso product that doesn't even qualify to be used as a backup to totally control all the systems on an aircraft.  There is NOTHING stopping them from pushing the g3x into certified aircraft. 

[Godfather]

46 minutes ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

I am glad to have options to replace King autopilots.  If the ~$20K for GFC600 system includes all the boxes and servos to connect my G500 / GTX750 boxes and replace the KFC225 it sounds great.  Next time mine eats another pitch servo I'll strongly consider replacing it. 

IMO the 225 is still one of the best AP's out there. Putting in a $25,000 AP because your current one eats a $2,500 servo every 1k hours is a fine idea but I doubt it will net you another dollar if you want to sell the plane at a later date. 

[Jerry 5TJ]

1 minute ago, Godfather said:

IMO the 225 is still one of the best AP's out there. Putting in a $25,000 AP because your current one eats a $2,500 servo every 1k hours is a fine idea but I doubt it will net you another dollar if you want to sell the plane at a later date. 

Agree the 225 is a fine autopilot.   It's the best of the 150/200/225 I've owned, by a lot.  The GFC600 offers more features than the KFC225, and the King system has had no firmware support in years.  Next time (about 400 hours on average, alas) the servo gives out, rather than just pay (the $4200 it cost last time) I'll consider it an opportunity to get more a capable system.  

As for recouping an investment in an airplane, wow, that's a novel thought. 

[jetdriven]

28 minutes ago, Godfather said:

The G5 is not legal to replace the 256 if you have a flight director or if you are FIKI. 

I don't see Garmin updating the G5 beyond what you see today. What we currently have is what was released 3 years ago to the experimental crowd. 

What IMO is really exciting is how easily they were able to certify a non tso product that doesn't even qualify to be used as a backup to totally control all the systems on an aircraft.  There is NOTHING stopping them from pushing the g3x into certified aircraft. 

CUb crafters just certified theG3x in their airplane.  

[smccray]

17 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

CUb crafters just certified theG3x in their airplane.  

I found the headline on google but it looks like AOPA took down the story?  Did the jump the gun?

Is that a VFR only aircraft?  If my memory is correct, one of the owners/sr executives at cubcrafters received a field approval to install a G3X into a B36 bonanza.  He voluntarily gave up the IFR certification as part of the application.

[82Mike]

I would love the KFC600 system, but still at 25 to 30k installed lot of money.  My Aspen/EA100 and KAP150 really works very well.  The debate will rage over can you use a G5 in combo with the Aspen (multiple panel battery back up) and the need for vaccum.  Anyway you look at this Garmin really is looking at creating a new market.  There is really very little option when it comes to replacing the King A/p's many of us fly?

[Greg_D]

3 hours ago, PTK said:

Unfortunately no. The G5 does not provide attitude reference for third party autopilots; it only provides it for the GFC500. Hence the beauty in the simplicity of the KI300.

Except that the KI 300 is nonexistent at this point.  BK said that they had stopped development on on when I asked about it an Sun n Fun just a few months ago.  Something tells me that they will be leaving the light GA market in the near future.

[PTK]

16 minutes ago, Greg_D said:

Except that the KI 300 is nonexistent at this point.  BK said that they had stopped development on on when I asked about it an Sun n Fun just a few months ago.  Something tells me that they will be leaving the light GA market in the near future.

Fake news! Check your sources...

https://www.eaa.org/eaa/event/KI_300_Solid_State_Attitude_Ind?id=300A26A98D1E410DACA4364B00FB9863

[Greg_D]

3 minutes ago, PTK said:

Fake news! Check your sources...

https://www.eaa.org/eaa/event/KI_300_Solid_State_Attitude_Ind?id=300A26A98D1E410DACA4364B00FB9863

Nice!  I’m excited to see that.  My source was 3 Bendix King reps at their Sun n Fun booth earlier this year.

Now, can you show me a source where you can actually purchase a unit?  Or is this going to be a dog and pony show like their KSN 770 that was poised for “imminent release” for about 7 year?

[mike_elliott]

15 minutes ago, PTK said:

Fake news! Check your sources...

https://www.eaa.org/eaa/event/KI_300_Solid_State_Attitude_Ind?id=300A26A98D1E410DACA4364B00FB9863

I think we have seen this same presentation for the last 3 years....nothing to new see here. Peter, why don't you ask for your money back, or have you even pulled the trigger? No doubt you (or your children) should get SN001 if it comes to be.