Flying No-Com VFR vs With ATC

[cliffy]

Even with FF there's no guarantee  that they will call all traffic for you. It's not 100% 

[PTK]

An extra set of eyes can never hurt. It may even be a lifesaver.

http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief.aspx?ev_id=20110820X50228&key=1

[Hank]

8 hours ago, cliffy said:

Even with FF there's no guarantee  that they will call all traffic for you. It's not 100% 

While you are flying, there is only one guarantee:  what goes up must come down. Unlike our boating friends, we in aviation have a perfect record--we haven't left one up there in over a hundred years!

[M016576]

3 hours ago, Hank said:

While you are flying, there is only one guarantee:  what goes up must come down. Unlike our boating friends, we in aviation have a perfect record--we haven't left one up there in over a hundred years!

That, too, depends on how far (up) you go....

[Hank]

1 hour ago, M016576 said:

That, too, depends on how far (up) you go....

0 agl is where I always depart from, and return to. How far up do you go?  

Edited December 25, 2016 by Hank

[tony]

5 hours ago, Hyett6420 said:

I fly in uncontrolled airspace nearly all the time (unless im flying in Belgium when i wil always go IFR,its easier). However if you fly around the UK or Europe without talking to anyone you are an idiot.   I am always talking to someone offering me a radar service or information service so they know who i am and what i am doing.  It helps keep me safe by making sure i dont accidentally hit a purple airway or some other popup obstruction, it acts as another pair of eyes for me by letting me know about traffic if the viz is low due to haze or flying into the winter sun and equally importantly if something goes pearshaped then you dont have to spend a few critical 10s of seconds opening a conversation with soeone and explaining what you are, where you are etc, when you could be concentrating on saving your life.  

Also in the UK if i cross a border without talking to someone i will guarantee that within about 2-3 minutes i will have been painted and after a further two or however long it takes to get them to me i wil lhave a couple of Typhoons up my backside making rather aggreesive communicstions olong the lines of "Mooney G-OBAL turn left immediately, if you do not respond to this communication, i have authority from HM Government (or whichever government) to shoot you down!"  

Talking is always best.   

Andrew

Thank God I live in the United States of America, where the best I can tell, we still have some freedoms left.  

Edited December 26, 2016 by tony

[M016576]

5 hours ago, Hank said:

0 agl is where I always depart from, and return to. How far up do you go?  

Me?  50k.  A friend of mine from flight school?  Much.. much... higher.  Regardless- at some point- there is no coming down

[Hank]

48 minutes ago, M016576 said:

Me?  50k.  A friend of mine from flight school?  Much.. much... higher.  Regardless- at some point- there is no coming down

Huh. Learned something tonight. Which astronaut did we leave up there?

Anyway, rockets aren't really "aviation," they are "rocketry." The difference being they don't use air, they carry their own oxidizer to combust, and fly outside the atmosphere where aerodynamics don't matter. And no, I'm not being any more pedantic in my definitions than you are.  

[Jeff_S]

Geez, Hank, I think the guy was just making a joke. You didn't have to go all engineering on him!

[midlifeflyer]

For me, it depends. Most of my cross country flights these days are under IFR and I have always liked  flight following for VFR. But, especially  when I lived in Colorado I did a lot of flying just looking at the sights and talking to no one. 

[PTK]

On 12/25/2016 at 1:21 AM, cliffy said:

Even with FF there's no guarantee  that they will call all traffic for you. It's not 100% 

As someone said there are two guarantees: taxes and death. (Some politicians misconstrue this as "...tax 'em to death..." but that's another story and would be a thread drift!)

Personally I prefer to put my tax dollars to work and get ff and another set of "eyes" when vfr. Hopefully I can forestall the death part as much as possible!

 

 

[Hank]

4 hours ago, Jeff_S said:

Geez, Hank, I think the guy was just making a joke. You didn't have to go all engineering on him!

Sometimes I can't help it . . . It's genetic, I think . . .

[cliffy]

ATCs function is?         IFR to IFR separation - which is virtually 100%

                                     IFR to VFR separation- which is still pretty good but not perfect

Last on the totem pole come us, the pop-up VFR to all of the above separation 

                                      They do a pretty good job at that also but even they say it is "on a workload permitting basis"

                                       They can and do at times drop the bottom of the pole, without notice, to handle the top level. 

Our primary pilot function VFR is looking out the window and not relying on or playing with  gadgets inside the cockpit. 

FF can and does lull many into a false sense of comfort as to traffic around us.

I have known a couple of pilots that went FF and then set the autopilot and then read a book thinking they were completely safe, on a regular basis. 

I'm not saying that FF can't help but how much do YOU actually look out the window and how much time do YOU actually play with gadgets inside when on FF? Go fly with a couple of buddies and quietly watch where there eyes are focused most of the time. It might surprise you. I did that all the time when I was a Check Airman doing line checks. It will give you a different perspective. Do you think the big guys are looking out the window? Think again. 

Then factor in how many glass screens are in the cockpit. I once saw a small plane with 5 GPS systems inside (2 panel  mount and 3 on RAM mounts. They were all over the cockpit. How much looking out vs "programming"  do you think was going on in that cockpit?

How about mounting your 696 up in the middle of the windshield? How much of your view is that thing blocking? Seen it done!

Now to ask- Did anyone go youtube the video  "Children of Magenta" that I mentioned earlier? Has anyone here ever sen it?

If ADSB in was 100% (which it ain't and won't be) it would go a long way to safety, BUT, it ain't perfect either. (emph. added) AND it requires "heads down inside" to use it!

FF is not a panacea 

Sorry, rant over for now.

 

[neilpilot]

21 hours ago, Hyett6420 said:

 It helps keep me safe by making sure i dont accidentally hit a purple airway or some other popup obstruction, it acts as another pair of eyes for me by letting me know about traffic if the viz is low due to haze or flying into the winter sun

Seems that you have other flight hazards to consider.  Maybe you should avoid altitudes below 5000'? 

Reference this:  "A total of 3.5 trillion insects weighing a combined 3,200 tons migrated annually over a region in south-central England monitored with specialized radar and a balloon-supported aerial netting system.  The researchers tracked the migration of insects at altitudes between 492 feet and 3,937 feet." http://www.toledoblade.com/Medical/2016/12/26/Health-and-Sicence-Briefs-Trillions-of-insects-tracked-flying-across-Britain.html

[201er]

Also, how is this a FF vs IFR distinction. As pointed out in another thread, there is no separation service for IFR from nordo VFR in VMC, IFR traffic has to look out for them just the same. Maybe it's different in class A cause everyone is IFR.

Edited December 26, 2016 by 201er

[bradp]

@Cliffy ... click click click click my friend.

If people don't know what a Cliffy is talking about those are the single best series of aviation (or other) education videos I've seen. Watched them over and over again even though not all the parallels to GA flying are applicable. The general idea is that when in doubt fly the f"*^ing airplane. Use but don't rely on the cockpit automation.

That's the first one ... I think there is upset recovery and wind shear avoidance in the subsequent videos.

I really wish someone had the full course online. It's really good stuff.

Sadly Warren Vanderburgh passed away recently. http://m.legacy.com/obituaries/dfw/obituary.aspx?n=&pid=182627598&referrer=0&preview=True


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[cliffy]

That's too bad on his passing. I've done a fair amount of classroom instruction and could never hold a candle to his ability to get the point across!! 

[DXB]

On 12/26/2016 at 7:54 PM, bradp said:

@Cliffy ... click click click click my friend.

If people don't know what a Cliffy is talking about those are the single best series of aviation (or other) education videos I've seen. Watched them over and over again even though not all the parallels to GA flying are applicable. The general idea is that when in doubt fly the f"*^ing airplane. Use but don't rely on the cockpit automation.
 

 

That's the first one ... I think there is upset recovery and wind shear avoidance in the subsequent videos.

I really wish someone had the full course online. It's really good stuff.

Sadly Warren Vanderburgh passed away recently. http://m.legacy.com/obituaries/dfw/obituary.aspx?n=&pid=182627598&referrer=0&preview=True


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Beautiful - ashamed to say I'd never actually watched that until now.

[dmevans]

Hello all.

I have worked in a VFR tower, the ARTCC (Center), and I currently work as a air traffic controller in a Tower/TRACON.

Let me just start by saying, you don't know how many near mid-airs I see on the radar scope between 2 VFR (1200) targets. It happens more frequently than you think.

Usually when I vector a VFR on FF it's because you are going to be really really close to converging or opposite direction traffic that you may not be able to see until it's too late. We don't do it for airspace unless it's restricted, prohibited, or a TFR is active. 

When you choose to not be on flight following, your mode C is not verified. This is why when we call traffic on an unverified target (1200) we always say "altitude indicates". I've had instances where non-verified mode C targets have been off by 1500-2000 feet. ADSB is nice, but if pilots aren't putting in the proper altimeter settings, that plane may be close than you think. 

As always, if you have any ATC questions, feel free to ask. 

[carusoam]

dmevans, great to have your insight.

Best regards,

-a-

[Oscar Avalle]

If you fly out of the Washington DC area you have to talk to ATC always... So, it is in a way easier to just file IFR.

[Jerry 5TJ]

On 12/25/2016 at 8:46 PM, M016576 said:

  Regardless- at some point- there is no coming down

I worked at NASA while in grad school and participated (along with thousands of others) in Viking and Voyager programs.  The two Voyager craft are still headed "up" as they have been for 40 years.  Two Viking craft did land, but not back on Earth.

In Mooney aircraft (so far) I've always come back to this planet after each takeoff.  Seems a fair assumption that pattern will continue.  

 

 

[Jerry 5TJ]

30 minutes ago, Oscar Avalle said:

If you fly out of the Washington DC area you have to talk to ATC always... So, it is in a way easier to just file IFR.

You have to file an IFR or VFR (SFRA) plan and call for clearance before departure.  With cell phone service available it is not hard even at little fields without a tower.

I've found Potomac Departure is efficient & friendly--If you follow the basic procedures.  If not, have your camera ready to get some great closeups of an F-16!

 

 

[Hector]

The only times I'm not talking to ATC is during local burger runs and I'm reconsidering that too. Yesterday flew down from North Florida to Miami along the east coast roughly following V3. On more than one occasion ATC pointed traffic in opposite direction 500 feet above or below me. Although I always have eyeballs outside especially along a busy airway, it's comforting to know I have a second set of eyes looking out for me as well. The good news is that in all three cases I had actually spotted the traffic on the IPad/Foreflight even though I don't yet have ADS-b out. Looks like at least here in Florida we have enough aircraft with ADS-b out that I'm getting a more complete traffic picture. Nevertheless, I'm accelerating my ADS-b out installation because the benefits are just too good to pass up.


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