Engine failure of sorts in my Bravo--need advice on what to do

[Bravoman]

Today I stopped by to say hello Joey Cole and his guys at Cole aviation in Dalton, Ga, the MSC which maintains my plane. On departure, after a normal run up I started getting oil on the wind screen and soon it was covered. I had no forward visibility but had an uneventful landing back at the field. The engine continued to make normal power and I blew out all but about 3 quarts of oil.

When the plane was pulled in to the shop it was de cowled and the cause was readily apparent. There was a four inch mostly horizontal crack along the top front of the left side of the case. I'll try to post a pic later if I can figure out how to do it. Joey cole and his men said they never saw anything quite like it. After seeing what the case looked like I knew I was lucky that this happened in VMC and close to an airport, especially the one where my mechanic is located.

My question is what to do about the engine. The engine (and airframe, which is a 98 model)  has 1155 hrs and has never been overhauled. For whatever its worth in terms of relevance, the crank shaft AD did not apply to my engine. Should I try to get core credit for a new engine, or just buy a new case and have the engine overhauled by Zephyr or Penn Yan? ( haven't decided which shop I'd go with yet; I know both are excellent). I don't like the idea of welding the case half, as I don't think I would have confidence in its integrity, especially given the size of this crack. I'm trying to get a sense of which direction makes the most sense economically and what will give me the best,  safest engine under the circumstances. 

Thanks for your collective input and wisdom!

 

Regards, Frank

 

[Hank]

Sorry to hear of your troubles, but you couldn't have asked for more favorable circumstances for it to happen! Hope everything else goes as smoothly.

[aviatoreb]

Well done handling the problem.

I am generally of the opinion that the best shops, like Zephyr you cited is one, likely do a better job producing a boutique engine, than even the two factories do.

[Yooper Rocketman]

Good job getting it back on the ground!  I've welded up several engine blocks but feel the same as you.  I would NOT want to use that Continental block after it was weld repaired.  I would quote it with the different options and make a decision based on that.

Tom

[1964-M20E]

1. I evaluate the possibility of repairing the case IRAN everything else while down.  If all the lower components, cam and followers look good I'd replace the bearings ,rings and oil pump and go.

2. Get a new case and again IRAN everything else while down.

[Wakeup]

I would talk with Carlus Gann and see what he thinks. I have only heard excellent things about his engines and he is very close.  Hope all works out.   Troy 

[carqwik]

Jesus...that's scary.  My Bravo is the same vintage and hours AF&E TT...but I went through the crank AD done by Lycoming so essentially got an OH without the cost of the log book entry as such.  For the engineers here...how does a case get such a large crack so quickly?  Is it a stress issue?  Metallurgy issue?  Hope we don't end up with another AD on the Bravo engine...it cost a lot of money and downtime for the crank AD!

[carusoam]

Cold weather is often a concern for higher MPs/power to add to the stresses at T/O...

does your JPI record the MP?

with a mid time engine it is worth considering comparing OH costs to swapping a different case into a reassembly.

Lycoming supplies some basic reman and OH pricing for comparison.  

Divco has some good case info.

R&R will be the same for both new or used engine.

The good news is you got the plane down.  Great piloting!

Best regards,

-a-

[FoxMike]

Seems to me it is too early to tell what to do.  Several years ago an overhaul from Lyc. was more than $60K.  New more than $80K.  Those solutions will get back into the air quickly but at a high marginal cost but represent the upper limit.  I would tear the engine down and see what is serviceable and go from there.  I would definitely want a new case.  I know they can be welded but I would get a new one.  Probably worth looking closely at the counterweights and the bushings on the crankshaft.  If they are worn and causing unusual vibration that might have played into the case cracking.  The case probably was defective from the start but you will probably never know.  Good luck this will likely be quite an ordeal.

[Tom]

No right or wrong answer here in terms of what to do.  Some in your position planning to keep the plane forever would overhaul, others would IRAN.  Same basic two options for someone in your position thinking about a different airframe in the future.  Aside from doing what would make you most comfortable from a safety standpoint, you're tasked with trying to read the mind of some future buyer looking at the plane who will have his/her own values.  My .02 cents would be overhaul if I might sell and IRAN if I was keeping it until my flying retirement....that's just me.

[KSMooniac]

Great job keeping your wits and landing safely.  Absent any other evidence, it is quite possible you had a casting flaw in the case that turned into a crack over time.  I'm not sure if the Bravo engine has "normal" cracking points like the -360 does (#2 cylinder area for example), but this is the first I've read of such a failure.

I'm not as familiar with the Bravo engine as the -360, but if I were in your shoes I'd have Zephyr do an overhaul (and re-use the good parts, possibly even the cylinders) and get a new case.  You might consider checking with Lycoming as they might have an interest in the failure and give you a deal on an exchange overhaul, but I wouldn't hold my breath.  

FWIW I did a careful field overhaul of my 360 when I lost a cam lobe, including overhauling my first-run cylinders.  The only downside IMO is the downtime vs. a factory exchange.  I'm very happy with the engine we built and feel we got a smoother, better-balanced engine than Lycoming spits out of the factory.  All of the rotating components got precision balanced, lifters got flow-matched, and the cylinders got flow-balanced as well.  Lycoming just takes parts out of the bins and assembles...  Minimizing vibration is one of the keys to longevity for the engine as well as many airframe components and instruments/avionics.  

[mike_elliott]

Do call Lycoming, they may provide some relief on a reman. Rocketman got a deal he couldn't refuse on his Bravo engine from them, you may also. If they balk, call Roger Gradle at Continental Motors in Fairhope. They rebuild lycomings also. Of course, Charlie Melot at Zepher will do a bang up first class job, as will Poplar Grove, and Penn Yan.
I am steering you to an OH instead of just a fix whats busted. You are going to be into it for almost the same labor $.

[carl]

I'd weld it .

Welds are stronger than the case. Cases are really low pressure vessels, there is no combustion in the case, they fail because of the crappy casting process used, if you could weld up a complete case that would be sweet,and probably more expensive and heavy. 

I would send it to Chuck Ney in Tulsa and leave it up to them.

 

[wpbarnar]

Call a Lycoming distributor,  they can be the middle man that can actually help.

You probably still qualify for the Lycoming factory reman at an overal price.   Factor in the what all you get new in a factory reman (mags, fuel system etc..) when you run the numbers.   I also believe an engine with a pedigree and 0 TSN adds resell value.   Jim at G&N Engines was easy to work with for me.

 

[M016576]

That new motor cost... While high... May be the best bet: IRAN on a motor that must be totally torn down anyway and has less than half total life left might not be that much cheaper than what the manufacturer might charge for a brand new motor.  It's at least worth looking in to...

[Awful_Charlie]

I have a feeling the the Lyco overhaul cost is dependant on the crank and case being usable - no idea of the uplift in the situation that one, other or both need replacement

[jetdriven]

6 hours ago, M016576 said:

That new motor cost... While high... May be the best bet: IRAN on a motor that must be totally torn down anyway and has less than half total life left might not be that much cheaper than what the manufacturer might charge for a brand new motor.  It's at least worth looking in to...

Lycoming's core policy does not charge back for components.  It must be complete and operable, however. I'd ask about the crack. 

Now overhaul shops will. One guy on here was into an IO-360 for around 40 grand because the crank and case were both bad.

regarding new, it's 96K.  That's a high price to pay for peace of mind.  If I was willing to pay that much, consider a twin.  

[Bravoman]

Thank you all so much for the advice. At this juncture it looks like a factory reman. We are checking prices and applicable discounts now. One thing I'd like to tell everybody is how helpful and honest Herman at zephyr engines was when I called him about the situation. I texted him a pic, and He advised that because the damage to the case looked most likely due to a broken tappet, there was likely other damage internally that would have to be addressed, possibly even to the crank. His advice was that a factory reman would likely be the only economically viable option when you factor in the cost of a new case. 

 

My my concern is how the core credit will be handled by Lycoming in light of the cracked case and possible internal damage. Hopefully they will try to keep me a happy customer, but perhaps I am being naive!

i was proud of my performance when the case blew and so were the guys at Cole aviation who came out to watch my return to the field when they were alerted by the FBO. It is good to be a pilot. It was definitely good to be on the ground.

regards, Frank

 

[KSMooniac]

Don't have the engine removed or disassembled before working a deal with Lycoming...they'll only take the engine as-removed, not in boxes of parts.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Bravoman]

2 hours ago, KSMooniac said:

Don't have the engine removed or disassembled before working a deal with Lycoming...they'll only take the engine as-removed, not in boxes of parts.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Good to know, thanks.

[jclemens]

All of these replies and not one of you asked for pictures?  Sounds like the crack is in a known problem area.  There are case modifications approved for Lycoming cases that are intended to prevent case cracks.  A repaired and modified case is stronger than one from the factory.  There are also mods to add o-rings to the thru studs to prevent leaks, dowels to prevent case fretting, etc.  These mods and others are why "boutique" engine shops can produce a better product than the factory.  We have all of the cases on engines we build modified just the way we like them.  Even if your case is not repairable, replacing the case with a yellow tagged case will get you back in the air for a lot less money.  

[Mcstealth]

19 minutes ago, jclemens said:

All of these replies and not one of you asked for pictures?  Sounds like the crack is in a known problem area.  There are case modifications approved for Lycoming cases that are intended to prevent case cracks.  A repaired and modified case is stronger than one from the factory.  There are also mods to add o-rings to the thru studs to prevent leaks, dowels to prevent case fretting, etc.  These mods and others are why "boutique" engine shops can produce a better product than the factory.  We have all of the cases on engines we build modified just the way we like them.  Even if your case is not repairable, replacing the case with a yellow tagged case will get you back in the air for a lot less money.  

And there ha go.

[Bravoman]

1 hour ago, jclemens said:

All of these replies and not one of you asked for pictures?  Sounds like the crack is in a known problem area.  There are case modifications approved for Lycoming cases that are intended to prevent case cracks.  A repaired and modified case is stronger than one from the factory.  There are also mods to add o-rings to the thru studs to prevent leaks, dowels to prevent case fretting, etc.  These mods and others are why "boutique" engine shops can produce a better product than the factory.  We have all of the cases on engines we build modified just the way we like them.  Even if your case is not repairable, replacing the case with a yellow tagged case will get you back in the air for a lot less money.  

Your point is well taken. I'll make it a point to figure out how to get a pic on here shortly.

[carusoam]

Using an iPad...

click the button...  'Click the button to choose file'

it gives options including take a photo or use a photo that you have in a file...

The button only appears in the place you are typing.  There is a paper clip next to it.

Not as good as the advice from JC, but I hope it helps...

Using Tapatalk is a bit easier if you have it.

Best regards,

-a-

 

[Tony Armour]

I had not heard. Horrible news on your engine, great news on getting it down safely and at KDNN !

If I can do anything at all for you up here let me know. I don't know how to advise you, but when I need an engine, Carlus Gann will be doing it (again, he did my 201) and is the only guy that brother Bill Elliot uses for his stuff ! :-) One man, one engine and close by. Down side, he "may" be several months behind with so much work.

I'll have to go check it out in person. It's about time for me to take the guys at Cole more cookies anyway LOL

 

Edited January 21, 2016 by Tony Armour