Final Questions

[base698]

I am thinking I'm going to go ahead and pull the trigger on a plane, just had a few last questions.

 

I know hangaring is best, I have an airport 3 minutes from my house.  They likely aren't going to have any hangars for a while.  Should I take the airplane to an airport 40 minutes away so I can get the hangar?  

 

I know a lot of people set up an LLC for the plane.  How would you start doing that?  Is it hard to do after you've already bought the plane?  

 

Where is a good prebuy mechanic in the Utah/California/Nevada area?  Mooney instructor?

 

What are the steps after you decide to make an offer?  

 

How long does the process take?

[jlunseth]

If you do not hangar, it is a matter of time before hail comes through.  The bulk of the plane requires some real hail to do damage, but the ailerons are very thin and require next to nothing.

 

Why would you set up an LLC?  If you are going to rent the aircraft, charge for its use, or let others borrow it I can see a reason, but renting and charging would require that you have an operator's certificate, a Commercial Pilot certificate, plus commercial insurance.  The LLC in theory helps insulate you from liability, but if you are the pilot of the aircraft you are going to be the liable party whether the aircraft was in an LLC or not, so about the only practical reasons to set up an LLC isare (1) if the aircraft is going to be a business somehow, or (2) you are going to let your pal's fly the plane.  What you may have heard about are people who buy an aircraft and lease it back to a flight school so they get a break on the cost of flying when they take lessons.

[chrisk]

The first thing I would do is get your name on the hangar list at the local airport.  And I would probably hangar at the distant airport until space became available.  Also, you may want to look into a group hangar.  Often times they are available when T-hangars are not.

 

For the process, it takes as long or as short as you wish.  Almost everyone here will suggest a pre-buy by a Mooney expert that you can turn into an Annual  I'd expect this to take a few days.

[mpg]

Well,,,

 

Pretend that the nearest airport is 40 minutes away.

Do you want to own a plane soooo much that it is worth that drive, to keep it in a hanger?

if no,,  dont buy,,,     if yes,,   Get on the Waiting list at your home drome    NOW!

 

Go buy an airplane!      A Mooney!

[Mooneymite]

>>>>I know hangaring is best, I have an airport 3 minutes from my house.  They likely aren't going to have any hangars for a while.  Should I take the airplane to an airport 40 minutes away so I can get the hangar?  <<<

 

Yes, a hangar is important for many reasons.  Piece of mind during bad weather is just one of them.

 

The fact is that when you first own an airplane, a 40 minute drive is pure pleasure, but after the novelty of ownership has worn off, the longer the drive to the airport, the less you will fly it.  It won't take more than a time, or two, arriving after a 40 minute drive that you forgot to bring some vital piece of flight gear, or paperwork and you will begin to hate the drive.       "Bopping over" to put a charger on your battery  will involve an hour and 20 minutes of driving....    ...so you won't.

 

The closer to your home, the better!  Yes, get on that hangar list yesterday.  At some airports, it will move pretty fast because not everyone on the list really wants the hangar when it comes available.

[midlifeflyer]

Why would you set up an LLC?  If you are going to rent the aircraft, charge for its use, or let others borrow it I can see a reason, but renting and charging would require that you have an operator's certificate, a Commercial Pilot certificate, plus commercial insurance.  The LLC in theory helps insulate you from liability, but if you are the pilot of the aircraft you are going to be the liable party whether the aircraft was in an LLC or not, so about the only practical reasons to set up an LLC isare (1) if the aircraft is going to be a business somehow, or (2) you are going to let your pal's fly the plane.  What you may have heard about are people who buy an aircraft and lease it back to a flight school so they get a break on the cost of flying when they take lessons.

 

Couple of pieces of genaral information for a very misunderstood subject.

 

1. No, one does not need an operating certificate or commercial pilot certificate to rent an airplane. You may require commercial insurance but that depends on your policy; some insurers permit limited rentals under the base owner policy.

 

2. Yes, setting up an LLC will not protect you from liability as the pilot of that aircraft. Entities providing limited liability protection are not intended or designed for that. OTOH, it may provide a degree of protection if someone other than you flies it, whether or not that someone is a "co-owner," a renter or a just a friend.

 

3. A practical reason for setting up an LLC is definitely that others will use the airplane. But there can be others. The benefits and pitfalls can vary by state law. 

 

4. Setting up an LLC is easy and relatively inexpensive in most states. Setting it up correctly is a different question and generally requires at least some professional advice.

 

5. Yes, you can set it up later but, if you do, it will also require an ownership change which will have FAA re-registration requirements and may have tax consequences. If one is considering taking advantage of some of the benefits later (i.e., bringing in co-owner or limited rentals to friends), it can be cost-effective to get that stuff out of the way at the beginning.

[rbridges]

I agree with what others have said, a hangar is great to have, but flying it regularly is very important, also.  If having the plane 40 minutes away keeps it grounded more than a couple weeks at a time, you may want to move it closer.  A cover is a PITA but can add some valuable protection to your plane if you keep it outside.

 

Cliffs notes:  hangar it 40 minutes away if you will fly it regularly

[M20F]

I keep mine outside and if I had chosen a hanger in the past five years the difference between that and a tie down equates to 50% of the aircrafts value. Nothing against hangers but if the idea is they protect an investment, it isn't a very cost effective insurance policy. Most people I know in hangers spend more on their hangers than on gas flying in a year.

The best things for airplanes is to fly them, lack of that more than anything causes expense. As others mentioned being 40+ minutes away limits the greatest preventive thing you can do, which is fly. And isn't that the point?

My two cents.

[chrisk]

Thanks for the replies!  I live in an area with little rain and no storms, but I have seen hail here.  Will keep all that in mind.

 

What about missing airframe logs?  Plane I'm looking at has missing logs prior to 1989, but was signed off as airworthy on that date.

Depending on the plane, I would be ok with missing logs, but many folks are not.  It will effect the price when you sell and make it harder to sell.  You will also want to search the NTSB records to see if the missing logs also hide an accident.

[jetdriven]

That's s huge deduction in value. Be sure you buy it priced accordingly. What year and how many hours on the plane?

[TTaylor]

As far as instructor and mechanics more details would be helpful.  Where is the plane now and where will you have your home base? 

[chrisk]

For me the log books would not mean that much.  Approximately 20 years, 3000 hours, and certainly an overhauled engine or two means most info is known.  I would certainly consider the plane.   --There will still be a hit on the value.  Use it to negotiate. Just remember you will have to give it back when you sell later.

[urbanti]

I've tied a plane outside and I've hangared several planes and I find the plane ages more slowly when kept indoors.

If you are interested in getting a hangar at your local airport, you should spend some time making friends with the FBO and the local pilots. Like I did, you may find a way to sublet a hangar or get somebody to transfer theirs to you. Or the FBO may extend themselves and find some way to accomodate your plane if they like you.

Regarding missing logbooks, if you're just talking about the first logbook for a 50 year old plane worth $40k it wouldn't in and of itself be a deal killer for me.

regards

Tim

[dtoelke]

Justin, the closest MSC to you is probably Foothill Aircraft at Cable (CCB).  I used them for my pre-buy a couple months back and I think they did a pretty good job.  If you're looking for absolute top notch then Top Gun and LASAR are the places to go, but they are much further.  I've also heard good things about Crown Air which is in San Diego.

 

As far as hangaring goes, since you live in Santa Monica I would strongly (STRONGLY) suggest you tie down there for convenience until a hangar opens up.  I live 20 mins from my airport and even that drive can be a pain in the ass.  Like someone else already mentioned, you WILL inevitably leave things behind and having to drive 1.5 hrs to retrieve them will make you sick.  Not to mention this time could easily double if you hit it at the wrong time of day in Los Angeles.  Take a walk around the SMO tie down spaces and you will see there are a lot of really nice planes out there (there's a reason!).  You don't live in an area with severe weather so things like hail, snow, etc. shouldn't be enough of a concern to deter you from keeping the plane outdoors.  That being said I would recommend using an external cloth cover to protect against UV damage on the windows and interior.

 

Unfortunately the great state of California requires a minimum tax of $800 annually for LLCs, so a partnership would probably suit you better.  And frankly nowadays LLCs don't afford the protection they once did.

 

Hope this helps.

[Mooneymite]

When  bought my Mooney, the logbook documenting the first 8 years was missing.  However, the IA did a good job documenting what was of value in that first logbook based on "other records".  The "new" first logbook" had all the AD compliance and service bulletin information included from day one.  Other paper work supplied the names/dates of previous annuals, etc.

 

So while the logbook was technically gone, most of the information had been reconstructed.

 

However....and here's the kicker:  if someone wants to hide something, a lost logbook is a good try.

 

In my case, the owner had continued to fly/maintain the airplane for 15 years after the loss of the logbook, so I felt confident that it was an okay airplane....and it has been....for the last 18 years.  However, when I decide to sell, I'm sure prospective buyers will beat me up over that logbook.   

[Mooneymite]

Southern California, SMO would be the home base.

 

 

Isn't SMO on very shaky grounds?  I'm not talking about earthquakes.  

 

The city has been trying to close that airport for years!

[Mooneymite]

HHR, or CPM?

 

Of course there's always LAX.  

[dtoelke]

A great way to tackle the airport storage issue is with basic time/cost analysis.

 

Let's assume you drive to your plane 50 times per year (to fly, fix something, show it off, whatever).  It will probably be more, especially early on, but let's just use that number.  Let's also assume 5 minutes to SMO and 30 minutes to VNY.

 

Yearly time spent driving: 8.3 hrs to SMO, 50 hrs to VNY.  Incremental cost @ $0.56/mi is roughly $20 per round trip ($1000/yr).

 

Cost to tie-down at SMO ~$1800/yr, cost for hangar at VNY ~$7200/yr ($150/mo and $600/mo; both are estimates but probably very close to actual)

 

So the effective difference in time/cost between hangaring at VNY vs tieing down at SMO is $6,400 AND 42 hours of driving time (a full work week!)... PER YEAR!  Some may feel differently but if I could save that type of money and time, not to mention sanity, I wouldn't hesitate to tie my plane down.  Especially in LA where your weather damage risk is so low.

 

 

 

Disclaimer: I do hangar my own plane (for me it makes sense because the extra expense is small and no further away)

[mike_elliott]

Anyone know of a good sales contract example to work off of?  

start here: 

http://www.aopa.org/Pilot-Resources/Aircraft-Ownership/Sample-Purchase-Sales-Agreement

[mooniac15u]

Isn't SMO on very shaky grounds? I'm not talking about earthquakes.

The city has been trying to close that airport for years!

If SMO closes you can just park your plane at the golf course across the street with Harrison Ford.

[gsxrpilot]

I drive 45 minutes to my hanger. But I would lose my mind worrying about my Mooney if it was parked outside here in Texas. We get the big thunderstorms and hail regularly. I had the hanger lease for two months before I found an airplane .

[Schinderhannes]

We had a tie-down in SMO at American Flyers  for $100/ month from late 2011 to early 2013.  Considering that you live in the LA area I would recommend to park the aircraft as close to your house as possible; after all isn't escaping the madness on the LA highways the reason to get a Mooney in the first place.  We lived only 5 miles from SMO and sometimes it took us more than 30' min to get to the plane.     

[ryoder]

I was going to hangar at Tampa Exec which would be a 20 minute drive instead of a 40 minute drive but they have super expensive gas and started messing around with rates so now I drive farther away but save tons on gas and hangar rates. I still wish I was closer and might go there some day because the drive is far enough to make flying a weekend only thing.

[xcrmckenna]

I think everyone is missing option B, and this is coming from a single guy without kids. But just move closer to your plane. That mentality also might explain why I've never been married as well. If traffic sucks everywhere in the LA area. I would rather have a pain in the a$$ drive to work and get to make up for it with a fast drive to my plane.

[IndyTim]

Do a query here for the plane's N number and serial number (2 different searches). You want to turn over every rock you can find to dtermine if the plane has had damage. http://www.aviationdb.com/Aviation/AccidentQuery.shtm

This tool saved my bacon about 24 hours before I was going to buy a Bonanza.