It Never Ceases to Amaze Me

[cliffy]

Having been around this flying business for over 60 years it always amazes me when I look around at any airport and see what is parked there.

You will see pristine examples of what is "aviation art" and you will see derelicts rotting away.

What I can't figure is someone who owns an "investment" of $80,000 on the LOW side upwards of a quarter million dollars and letting that

asset just sit there a rot away.

Would that same person buy a new car for $100,000 and just park it on the street and drive it an hour a month for years? Letting it rot away

the same way? 

What is it about airplanes and aviation that brings one to that frame of mind? 

Secondly, we now have a great portion of GA airplanes ( not counting experimental or LS) that are approaching easily 50 years old and many expect them 

to perform as trouble free as a new car. These are antiques to say the least. How many airplane owners are driving 50 year old cars? And yet we expect our

50 year old airplanes to operate on less maintenance than our new cars.  Always looking for the quickie cheapest annual and never actually fixing EVERYTHING

that fails to work correctly.

And at the same time we launch off into the sky- NIGHT OR DAY- CLEAR SKIES OR CLOUDS with nary a thought to the consequences

It boggles the mind.

Every day the "fleet" gets smaller as we fiddle while Rome burns. 

[201er]

@carusoam might have an enlightening insider perspective

[Shadrach]

5 hours ago, cliffy said:

Having been around this flying business for over 60 years it always amazes me when I look around at any airport and see what is parked there.

You will see pristine examples of what is "aviation art" and you will see derelicts rotting away.

What I can't figure is someone who owns an "investment" of $80,000 on the LOW side upwards of a quarter million dollars and letting that

asset just sit there a rot away.

Would that same person buy a new car for $100,000 and just park it on the street and drive it an hour a month for years? Letting it rot away

the same way? 

What is it about airplanes and aviation that brings one to that frame of mind? 

Secondly, we now have a great portion of GA airplanes ( not counting experimental or LS) that are approaching easily 50 years old and many expect them 

to perform as trouble free as a new car. These are antiques to say the least. How many airplane owners are driving 50 year old cars? And yet we expect our

50 year old airplanes to operate on less maintenance than our new cars.  Always looking for the quickie cheapest annual and never actually fixing EVERYTHING

that fails to work correctly.

And at the same time we launch off into the sky- NIGHT OR DAY- CLEAR SKIES OR CLOUDS with nary a thought to the consequences

It boggles the mind.

Every day the "fleet" gets smaller as we fiddle while Rome burns. 

I have thought about this a lot and think I have some insight. I think in most cases this behavior is fundamentally driven by airplane ownership remaining a large part of the owner’s personal identity long after the practicality of ownership has passed.

My dad stopped exercising his privileges in 2018. He was flying so little in the years prior that currency would have been a concern for a mid lifer much less someone with 8 decades behind them. We had the talk. Insurance challenges only exacerbated the issue. What’s telling is that 6 years later, his certificate is still visible in his bill fold opposite his driver’s license.  No great hardship to keep your certificate front and center, but I’m not sure what would have happened if he were the sole owner of the plane.  What made it even more difficult for him is that there are several octogenarians at our drome that do stay current and fly regularly. So the possibility of “getting current” seems real even when the path is long overgrown.

I think it’s the same mentality that keeps a small business going long after it has declined beyond its mature phase. We’ve all seen businesses that are not generating enough cash flow to maintain their assets or previous service levels. It’s a downward spiral of reduced pricing to hang on to ever diminishing sales and margins…with the owner sometimes loaning the company money to make up for shortfalls. Even though the decline is obvious, the owner just can’t see themselves doing anything else.

[N201MKTurbo]

What really amazes me are the derelicts sitting on the ramp or in hangars. and the owners refuse to sell it to someone who wants to put it back in service. The ones in hangars are crazy, some of the owners have paid more in hangar rent than the airplane is worth and still won't sell it.

[Schllc]

There is a lonely soul on my ramp that used to belong to the university of wisconsin.  It is an ovation and  the owner apparently bought it for his son to train in and when he finished it was left on the ramp.  
It went four or five years into arrears on ramp fees with the city and they threatened to auction.  At this point the tires were flat, the cover had literally rotted off the plane and it was sitting, baking in the sun for 7 years at this point.  
I tracked down the owner and talked to him about buying it, he told me they were selling for 500k on controller so he would take that….(eye roll)h

He then let it sit another three years without paying rent and the city got on him again, so he pulled into a shop on the field where they dropped a new engine and  prop. 
He then refused to pay the shop and they fought for another 2 years, while it was on the ramp.  This all concluded about 5 years ago, and it has been sitting on the ramp rotting since then, and has never flown.

I agree, i don't understand where these peoples heads are.  he still wont sell it.....

[Echo]

I experienced this recently with a local M20E owner.  He has lost his medical, but refuses to sell the airplane.  The same maintainer I have used also services his aircraft...It goes out of annual for a couple years and then "appears on the ramp" (a 15 minute flight).  I offered to purchase, but he refused saying his brothers son was getting his license and would be co-owning with him.  I watch and the plane has not flown since it's annual.  His hanger is full of motorcycles, a BD5 kit, etc...There is a LOT going on in the hanger for stuff, but zero going on for use of his Mooney.  All of "it" is between the ears for reasons.

I agree 100% that many are so attached to the concept of "ownership" as identifying "who" they are.  The actual act of flying/using is secondary.  Being an airplane owner is "part of them" and they don't want to detach from it.  They are one and as each ages and father time impacts their airframe they die together and leave others to sort it out...

My 31 year old son is interested in becoming a pilot.  I didn't learn to fly until I was 40.  I hope that he can take over the plane at some point and enjoy it with a zero cost of admission.  I will be able to continue to enjoy hearing about his adventures.  More than enough for me.

[PeteMc]

I had a Mooney near me on the ramp at FRG just becoming a giant birds nest.  Airport does have a clause in the lease about the planes being airworthy, but that's a last resort.  This particular plane was apparently being kept by the wife, who know very little about flying or owning a plane, because it was her late husbands and he loved to fly.  So she wanted to keep it. 

It did eventually go away and hopefully it could be made airworthy again.  I think the airport might have pushed the issue when they leased a big section of that ramp to an FBO and the Tie-Down list started to getting pretty big. 

 

[Shadrach]

A lot of times there are multiple generations of bad decision making.  First the owner stops flying it. At some point it ends up in probate and the heirs are either not knowledgeable or not realistic about what comes next.  This J model sat at VKX  for a decade.  It was in an executorship for most of that time.  I bet it left the airport in pieces.

 

[wombat]

There is a plane at my home airport that has been sitting unused and untouched since at least 2016....    Apparently sometime around 2014 someone aired up the tires and rolled it out and washed it then rolled it back.. The owner was furious, was talking guns and lawsuits if he found out who did it.

But in the last 3 months there have been some people working on it.   Local A&P whose shop got destroyed in a windstorm, and his GF's son, who is the nephew of the owner.   The son is a PPL from across the state, his plan is that once it's flying he'll take it 'home' and have a plane that was very low cost.

 

I talked to the A&P and he said he's probably put $25k in labor into it already, and they'll probably be that much more in labor, plus $25k in parts before it's actually legal & safe to fly.    But they are doing it!!!! 

[OR75]

I have an example of a J that's been sitting there not flown in several years because the owner "could not get the right price" for selling it ....

past that much past the annual inspection, the value quickly decline and any return to airworthy would cost $$$$ ... probably the cost of an overhauled engine at least

 

[OR75]

2 hours ago, Echo said:

I experienced this recently with a local M20E owner.  He has lost his medical, but refuses to sell the airplane.  The same maintainer I have used also services his aircraft...It goes out of annual for a couple years and then "appears on the ramp" (a 15 minute flight).  I offered to purchase, but he refused saying his brothers son was getting his license and would be co-owning with him.  I watch and the plane has not flown since it's annual.  His hanger is full of motorcycles, a BD5 kit, etc...There is a LOT going on in the hanger for stuff, but zero going on for use of his Mooney.  All of "it" is between the ears for reasons.

I agree 100% that many are so attached to the concept of "ownership" as identifying "who" they are.  The actual act of flying/using is secondary.  Being an airplane owner is "part of them" and they don't want to detach from it.  They are one and as each ages and father time impacts their airframe they die together and leave others to sort it out...

My 31 year old son is interested in becoming a pilot.  I didn't learn to fly until I was 40.  I hope that he can take over the plane at some point and enjoy it with a zero cost of admission.  I will be able to continue to enjoy hearing about his adventures.  More than enough for me.

your maintainer is very brave, I would not want my signature anywhere near that writeup saying that that plane is airworthy  

[Echo]

34 minutes ago, OR75 said:

your maintainer is very brave, I would not want my signature anywhere near that writeup saying that that plane is airworthy  

Had a prop strike a few years back. He does a legit annual that is paid for. Then it sits. Just a damn shame. I was very frank with the owner. He, in my opinion, based on hanger, has a lot of plans.  None seem to come to fruition. I said I would help him sell some of the stuff.  Nope…Sigh. Is what it is. 

[Echo]

Cut bait is not in their vocabulary. We all know these people. I know a guy with 30 ‘57 Ford retractable cars. He does a complete redo and they sit in a pole barn and get dusty. I asked if he ever sells one. His reply: “They won’t pay what they are worth “. Alrighty then…

[Hank]

2 hours ago, Echo said:

Cut bait is not in their vocabulary. We all know these people. I know a guy with 30 ‘57 Ford retractable cars. He does a complete redo and they sit in a pole barn and get dusty. I asked if he ever sells one. His reply: “They won’t pay what they are worth “. Alrighty then…

Some people just don't understand that "stuff" is only worth what people will pay to buy it . . . .

[phxcobraz]

Much of this adds to the ongoing shortage of hangers in many cities. People will fill their rented hanger with non-airworthy aircraft eventually intending to get them running again but never do. I bet half the hangers at my airport are this way. That or there are a few airplane parts in there but the rest is cars/motorcycles etc.

On a similar vein, I inherited a nice Harley from some family that passed away. I have always ridden and they decided I was best to take it and maybe keep it in use, maintained, and in the family. I recently approached some family members about selling it, as work/family/airplane life doesn't leave lots of time for that bike to get used. Apparently some family still has heavy sentimental ties to it, as they were appalled and suggested I put it in their shed, to which I stated would just end up in it rotting away. I finally got them to agree we donate it to a veterans charity, but they were perfectly content putting it away in a shed to get dinged up by lawn equipment rather than let someone else enjoy it.

[Shadrach]

53 minutes ago, wombat said:

There is a plane at my home airport that has been sitting unused and untouched since at least 2016....    Apparently sometime around 2014 someone aired up the tires and rolled it out and washed it then rolled it back.. The owner was furious, was talking guns and lawsuits if he found out who did it.

But in the last 3 months there have been some people working on it.   Local A&P whose shop got destroyed in a windstorm, and his GF's son, who is the nephew of the owner.   The son is a PPL from across the state, his plan is that once it's flying he'll take it 'home' and have a plane that was very low cost.

 

I talked to the A&P and he said he's probably put $25k in labor into it already, and they'll probably be that much more in labor, plus $25k in parts before it's actually legal & safe to fly.    But they are doing it!!!! 

You have tot do something in your free time...if you have any.  I don't value my sweat equity time in things I enjoy the same way I do my professional time. I could be swinging a golf club or back packing or any number of other interests one might have. Restoring a forlorn aircraft would be as gratifying as any, likely more.  

 

We never did finish our talk about WA backpacking. I did find my way to Stehekin late last summer for four days in the back country.  The Enchantments are on the list for a future trip if we can get organized early enough to commit to dates before permits are gone. 

[wombat]

1 hour ago, phxcobraz said:

Much of this adds to the ongoing shortage of hangers in many cities. People will fill their rented hanger with non-airworthy aircraft eventually intending to get them running again but never do. I bet half the hangers at my airport are this way. That or there are a few airplane parts in there but the rest is cars/motorcycles etc.

On a similar vein, I inherited a nice Harley from some family that passed away. I have always ridden and they decided I was best to take it and maybe keep it in use, maintained, and in the family. I recently approached some family members about selling it, as work/family/airplane life doesn't leave lots of time for that bike to get used. Apparently some family still has heavy sentimental ties to it, as they were appalled and suggested I put it in their shed, to which I stated would just end up in it rotting away. I finally got them to agree we donate it to a veterans charity, but they were perfectly content putting it away in a shed to get dinged up by lawn equipment rather than let someone else enjoy it.

In about 2006 I bought my mother a quite nicely restored 1972 Mercedes  350 SL.    She took it back home and never got into it again.  It rotted away with ethanol gas in the tank that eventually rusted out the tank, pump, and fuel lines and all the hoses are dry rotted and mice chewed up the brand new leather seats and for a while it was worth maybe $20k.  Now it's probably worth $3k.

 

@Shadrach If you are in shape, there are no permits required for day-hiking the enchantments and you can do a loop.  It's pretty tough though.   There are a lot of amazing hikes that can be done around here that don't require permits....  The way I see it, the permitted hikes are maybe 5% better than the non-permitted ones.    So if I want to go and don't have a permit I'm not losing much.

 

I do a lot of sweat equity tasks.  In the last month I've replaced a home electric panel (Quote: $10k, my cost: $1k) and poured a footing for a new hot tub (Quote: $12k, my cost, $1,500, and that includes flying to Seattle twice to get my step-son to help and then take him back after)    On-going is installing a shop heater (New: $4,500 plus $5k install and about $5k in other expenses like propane tank but my total cost will be about $900).....     I live above my means in some ways by doing this.... I can't afford all of this stuff if I just pay for it to be done.   But if I do it myself, I can afford it.

[EricJ]

1 hour ago, phxcobraz said:

Much of this adds to the ongoing shortage of hangers in many cities. People will fill their rented hanger with non-airworthy aircraft eventually intending to get them running again but never do. I bet half the hangers at my airport are this way. That or there are a few airplane parts in there but the rest is cars/motorcycles etc.

The City of Phoenix does a good job with this, and requires airworthy aircraft in a hangar, or a limited schedule to get a project flying.   e.g., for an experimental it has to be flying in X years, similar with any "project" airplane.    Yes, you can have something non-flying in the hangar, but it has to be an active projet and actually fly within a certain amount of time.    They seem to be enforcing it, which helps a ton with moving the hangar wait list along and keeping the airport more vibrant.   I appreciate it, but some of the deadbeats definitely don't.

A local private field that doesn't take fed money has a couple rows of hangars, and several of them when they're actually open are jammed floor to ceiling with crap.   Furniture, boxes, cars, whatever.   If there's an airplane in there somewhere, you can't tell, because there's so much crap.   If there is an airplane in there it obviously hasn't moved in a LONG time and it'd take a pretty significant effort just to get it out.
 

1 hour ago, phxcobraz said:

On a similar vein, I inherited a nice Harley from some family that passed away. I have always ridden and they decided I was best to take it and maybe keep it in use, maintained, and in the family. I recently approached some family members about selling it, as work/family/airplane life doesn't leave lots of time for that bike to get used. Apparently some family still has heavy sentimental ties to it, as they were appalled and suggested I put it in their shed, to which I stated would just end up in it rotting away. I finally got them to agree we donate it to a veterans charity, but they were perfectly content putting it away in a shed to get dinged up by lawn equipment rather than let someone else enjoy it.

I think people don't want to let go, and an artifact of some loved one's life is just a symbol of what's left of them.   It's pretty natural to want to hang on to stuff like that, which is why it's such a powerful thing.   It's emotional, not logical or rational, so the hurdle to overcoming it can be very high.

[Shadrach]

9 minutes ago, wombat said:

In about 2006 I bought my mother a quite nicely restored 1972 Mercedes  350 SL.    She took it back home and never got into it again.  It rotted away with ethanol gas in the tank that eventually rusted out the tank, pump, and fuel lines and all the hoses are dry rotted and mice chewed up the brand new leather seats and for a while it was worth maybe $20k.  Now it's probably worth $3k.

 

@Shadrach If you are in shape, there are no permits required for day-hiking the enchantments and you can do a loop.  It's pretty tough though.   There are a lot of amazing hikes that can be done around here that don't require permits....  The way I see it, the permitted hikes are maybe 5% better than the non-permitted ones.    So if I want to go and don't have a permit I'm not losing much.

 

I do a lot of sweat equity tasks.  In the last month I've replaced a home electric panel (Quote: $10k, my cost: $1k) and poured a footing for a new hot tub (Quote: $12k, my cost, $1,500, and that includes flying to Seattle twice to get my step-son to help and then take him back after)    On-going is installing a shop heater (New: $4,500 plus $5k install and about $5k in other expenses like propane tank but my total cost will be about $900).....     I live above my means in some ways by doing this.... I can't afford all of this stuff if I just pay for it to be done.   But if I do it myself, I can afford it.

I am similar but I need to be better about choosing my battles. just when I think I'm ahead, fate says "nope"... 

"In shape" is relative.  I'm not in the shape I'd like to be in but still did 33mls and 6500' of vert with a 45lb pack in 3 days and a wake up.  It was close though. One of our guys had knee issues and I thought we were going to miss the Sunday boat back to Chelan.

[AH-1 Cobra Pilot]

Depending on the Admiralty laws in your state, you may be able to get a judge to grant you an abandoned airplane.  If the registration is expired, taxes are not paid, ...

I knew a guy who did this.  His first plane was from a guy who was wanted for murder and disappeared.  He said while he was working on it one time, the wanted guy actually talked to him, although he did not know who he was at the time.

BTW, marinas are just as bad for this as are airports.

[Ron McBride]

I had a neglected C320 next to me for years.  Rumor had it, the owner bought it as management for a company.   About the time the company did not need it, the engines went bad.  The company said oh well.  Owner did not have the money, but to protect his credit paid the payment.  Rent was a headache for all.  I looked at it, figured $150,000 plus to make it jive, for a $50,000 plane.  How many owners are in the same shape?

[Shadrach]

3 hours ago, phxcobraz said:

Much of this adds to the ongoing shortage of hangers in many cities. People will fill their rented hanger with non-airworthy aircraft eventually intending to get them running again but never do. I bet half the hangers at my airport are this way. That or there are a few airplane parts in there but the rest is cars/motorcycles etc.

On a similar vein, I inherited a nice Harley from some family that passed away. I have always ridden and they decided I was best to take it and maybe keep it in use, maintained, and in the family. I recently approached some family members about selling it, as work/family/airplane life doesn't leave lots of time for that bike to get used. Apparently some family still has heavy sentimental ties to it, as they were appalled and suggested I put it in their shed, to which I stated would just end up in it rotting away. I finally got them to agree we donate it to a veterans charity, but they were perfectly content putting it away in a shed to get dinged up by lawn equipment rather than let someone else enjoy it.

This is indeed true.  I am at the airport nearly every week and often more this time of year. There are at least 30 hangars that I have never seen open and I have been there for two decades.

[Shadrach]

30 minutes ago, AH-1 Cobra Pilot said:

Depending on the Admiralty laws in your state, you may be able to get a judge to grant you an abandoned airplane.  If the registration is expired, taxes are not paid, ...

I knew a guy who did this.  His first plane was from a guy who was wanted for murder and disappeared.  He said while he was working on it one time, the wanted guy actually talked to him, although he did not know who he was at the time.

BTW, marinas are just as bad for this as are airports.

Absolutely...I have seen some dilapidated boats paying $450 a month slip fees...  The reasons for the neglect are the same.

[dkkim73]

4 hours ago, Shadrach said:

 

We never did finish our talk about WA backpacking. I did find my way to Stehekin late last summer for four days in the back country.  The Enchantments are on the list for a future trip if we can get organized early enough to commit to dates before permits are gone. 

At much as much younger, fitter age, I recall doing a quick trip via Aasgard pass to Prusik peak, 7 pitches of reasonable rock climbing for a novice. 

It was magical, that basin. Hope you get a pass!

[Shadrach]

35 minutes ago, dkkim73 said:

At much as much younger, fitter age, I recall doing a quick trip via Aasgard pass to Prusik peak, 7 pitches of reasonable rock climbing for a novice. 

It was magical, that basin. Hope you get a pass!

Thanks!
At fifty, I’ve been done with climbing for a while. I still have what’s left of my rack hanging in the attic as a reminder of those times.  These days I’m in it for the vistas and reconnecting with he boys.