Engine won’t start. KOXI airport.

[billy hellcat]

My son landed to refuel and it won’t start again. Just put a new skytec on it after old one had its teeth come apart.   Trying to start it  and there is a beeping sound on overhead speaker.   I told him to check battery and that has good voltage.  Good voltage to the master as well.   Still nothing.  Had him check connections to rear solenoid and kinda tap on it.  After that it started up.  What’s the issue

 

[Bolter]

10 minutes ago, billy hellcat said:

My son landed to refuel and it won’t start again. Just put a new skytec on it after old one had its teeth come apart.   Trying to start it  and there is a beeping sound on overhead speaker.   I told him to check battery and that has good voltage.  Good voltage to the master as well.   Still nothing.  Had him check connections to rear solenoid and kinda tap on it.  After that it started up.  What’s the issue

 

I had a skytec starter that as it aged, would randomly not function for hot start.  (I replaced the starter when this became a repeating issue)  When the engine cooled, about 1-2 hours depending on ambient conditions, then it would work fine.  The first time it happened, I got a ride home, and drove back with tools, and was shocked that it just started.  It was random enough that it took over a year to identify the starter itself as the root cause.  So after lots of troubleshooting connections and voltages , don't forget to try a regular start again.  -dan

[billy hellcat]

Thanks Dan!  The starter is brand new and has less then 10 hours on it.

[Mooneymite]

1 hour ago, billy hellcat said:

My son landed to refuel and it won’t start again. Just put a new skytec on it after old one had its teeth come apart.   Trying to start it  and there is a beeping sound on overhead speaker.   I told him to check battery and that has good voltage.  Good voltage to the master as well.   Still nothing.  Had him check connections to rear solenoid and kinda tap on it.  After that it started up.  What’s the issue

 

Beeping sound over the speaker?

That's a head-scratcher....

Is your son sure that isn't the shower of sparks vibrator?  It's located beneath the panel, right side.  The sound might be more like a squeel than a beep....it does it's thing when you go to "start" on the ignition switch.

Edited August 16, 2023 by Mooneymite

[Shadrach]

If it started after tapping the solenoid (relay), my guess is that it is flaking out when heat soaked. 

[druidjaidan]

Is the prop turning and it's just not starting? If so it's not the starter and likely the SoS.  Also it's a hot start, that can be a pain if done incorrectly, not sure his experience level. Beeping on the speaker makes very little sense, it isn't like our planes have any digital controls that would do that.

 

Edit:

Saw that tapping the solenoid got it going again. And the starter is new?  Warranty it.

Edited August 16, 2023 by druidjaidan

[Ragsf15e]

2 hours ago, billy hellcat said:

My son landed to refuel and it won’t start again. Just put a new skytec on it after old one had its teeth come apart.   Trying to start it  and there is a beeping sound on overhead speaker.   I told him to check battery and that has good voltage.  Good voltage to the master as well.   Still nothing.  Had him check connections to rear solenoid and kinda tap on it.  After that it started up.  What’s the issue

 

Which solenoid/relay did he tap?  The master solenoid (if failed) should be pretty self explanatory when you flip the master and nothing comes on in the cockpit.  The starter solenoid maybe harder to identify but a tap like that might “fix” it.  The master should be right near the battery.  The starter solenoid on mine is attached to the engine side of the firewall.

[Shadrach]

7 minutes ago, druidjaidan said:

Is the prop turning and it's just not starting? If so it's not the starter and likely the SoS.  Also it's a hot start, that can be a pain if done incorrectly, not sure his experience level. Beeping on the speaker makes very little sense, it isn't like our planes have any digital controls that would do that.

 

Edit:

Saw that tapping the solenoid got it going again. And the starter is new?  Warranty it.

I'm pretty sure that he is referring to the "solenoid" located the firewall which is completely separate from the starter. The starter switch energizes the "solenoid" which closes a circuit and activates the starter.  Easy and inexpensive to replace.

https://www.aviationpartsinc.com/product/lamar-starter-solenoid-faa-pma/

 

[M20F]

2 hours ago, billy hellcat said:

Thanks Dan!  The starter is brand new and has less then 10 hours on it.

I made it 3hrs on my first one Maxwell put on.  Landed and nothing.  Whacked it and got home.  Next day same thing.  Just swapped it.  I would guess it’s infant mortality.  

[jamesm]

Don't rule out a CB going bad or intermittent.  A long time ago I had the ignition/ Cigar lighter CB go intermittently bad. I took a while believe that CB since I rarely  get good connections through the cigarette lighter connectors. So I automatically assume it was just bad connection. I broke out a meter a found that CB didn't  have a hard fail  but an intermittent one. I took a while to figure it out still annoyed and embarrassed me that  it took me so long to find the root cause of my problem. I still stings a bit to this day.These  were the OLD red button style CB the part/model/series number Kilxon escape at the moment they are big in comparison  later Kilxon model 727x-x-x series that are about 3/4" tall 2" long.

Hope this  helps,

James '67C

 

[jamesm]

Not sure if Mooneyspace  has a section for  troubleshooting tips ...

Skytec,  PlanePower , SureFly and Zeftronics  has some of the best troubleshoot guides.  To my knowledge are almost spot on and informational.

The only problem is that "they" (proverbial they)   who are on the web someone who is irrational and has  OCD  are always in charge organizing internet links. so when you really really need them you can grantee that they have move them on you. rendering bookmarks useless.

https://skytec.aero/aircraft-starter-performance-issues/

by off chance in the Mag

https://www.aircraftmagnetoservice.net/magneto-troubleshooting-guide

here is one Alternator probably doesn't apply to your situation  but in the future someone else does  search on Mooneyspace  it might take them to expired hyper links adding to their frustration level since someone has moved the hyperlinks

https://planepower.aero/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/Troubleshooting-Single-Engine-Externally-Regulated-Alternators.pdf

by off chance Surefly Mag

https://www.surefly.aero/_files/ugd/712b87_36ba3f9bb0054363ac1baff6002b5f8b.pdf

Looks like Zeftronics you have email to get the troubleshooting guide or something or their web site UI sucks.

Somewhere I have downloaded their troubleshooting  guide(s)

 

rant OFF

[billy hellcat]

6 hours ago, Shadrach said:

If it started after tapping the solenoid (relay), my guess is that it is flaking out when heat soaked. 

It was super hot there today he said

 

[billy hellcat]

6 hours ago, Shadrach said:

I'm pretty sure that he is referring to the "solenoid" located the firewall which is completely separate from the starter. The starter switch energizes the "solenoid" which closes a circuit and activates the starter.  Easy and inexpensive to replace.

https://www.aviationpartsinc.com/product/lamar-starter-solenoid-faa-pma/

 

He whacked the solenoid by the battery which is located in the fuselage section.   They relocated it there.

 

[Shadrach]

24 minutes ago, billy hellcat said:

He whacked the solenoid by the battery which is located in the fuselage section.   They relocated it there.

 

Hmmm. I would have guessed that the starter solenoid would remain on the firewall. Putting it in the fuselage would needlessly create a mess of wire.

[LANCECASPER]

19 hours ago, billy hellcat said:

My son landed to refuel and it won’t start again. Just put a new skytec on it after old one had its teeth come apart.   Trying to start it  and there is a beeping sound on overhead speaker.   I told him to check battery and that has good voltage.  Good voltage to the master as well.   Still nothing.  Had him check connections to rear solenoid and kinda tap on it.  After that it started up.  What’s the issue

 

I'm not a Skytec starter fan. They do spin fast, but their failure rate is high. They do not hold up well  under heat. The older style heavy duty starters are much more durable.

[EricJ]

19 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

Hmmm. I would have guessed that the starter solenoid would remain on the firewall. Putting it in the fuselage would needlessly create a mess of wire.

If they relocated the battery to the tail avionics area there's likely a master relay back there with it.   That may be what got whacked.   It'd be unlikely to relocate the starter relay back there as well.

I'm just speculating based on the descriptions.

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, billy hellcat said:

He whacked the solenoid by the battery which is located in the fuselage section.   They relocated it there.

 

Agreed, but given that he had power and was getting feedback through the speakers, one can discern that the master relay was closing and was not the reason for the starting problem. 

[Shadrach]

15 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

I'm not a Skytec starter fan. They do spin fast, but their failure rate is high. They do not hold up well  under heat. The older style heavy duty starters are much more durable.

Just a data point. I have a pre Hartzell Skytec that's been in service for 15 years.  It started to get tired and noisy about 5 years ago. I replaced the battery which had no affect on performance, so I sent it to Hartzell. To mine and Hartzell's surprise is had been operating with a broken shear pin for nearly a year. They installed a new pin and sent it back gratis.  I traced the shear to a kick back that occurred at Republic Airport.  Sure glad it continued to operate (though I don't know why).  

[M20F]

16 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

I'm not a Skytec starter fan. They do spin fast, but their failure rate is high. They do not hold up well  under heat. The older style heavy duty starters are much more durable.

I got 3hrs out of one in 2009 and its replacement is still going strong.  I carry a spare one around with me so really not as weight savings either….

The world does seem to think they break a lot  and I believe the internet (hence the spare in the hat rack) but knock on wood still going. 

[jamesm]

Well you could leave the old prestolite  starter in if it is an earlier model Mooney's should be plenty of them on ebay or where ever  along vacuum pumps and Magneto, tube Narco radio's.

[Yetti]

B&C makes a Mooney starter,   Just saying

[ArtVandelay]

B&C makes a Mooney starter,   Just saying

FWIW, Spruce shows B&C not in stock, but SkyTeks are.

Anyone have firsthand experience with them?

[Yetti]

On 8/21/2023 at 5:48 PM, ArtVandelay said:

FWIW, Spruce shows B&C not in stock, but SkyTeks are.

Anyone have firsthand experience with them?

Go to the B&C website.  Count the teeth on your fly wheel.   I have had one for 4 years.   Not an issue.  Apparently they use bearings where Skytech uses a bushing.   The B&C starter has a 2000 TBO.   It was such a pain to change it out I did not want to do it again.  Great warranty is not worth having to change it out.

[A64Pilot]

On 8/16/2023 at 1:26 PM, billy hellcat said:

My son landed to refuel and it won’t start again. Just put a new skytec on it after old one had its teeth come apart.   Trying to start it  and there is a beeping sound on overhead speaker.   I told him to check battery and that has good voltage.  Good voltage to the master as well.   Still nothing.  Had him check connections to rear solenoid and kinda tap on it.  After that it started up.  What’s the issue

 

Going just off this, the issue is the solenoid of course, because he tapped on it and it worked. I’m not sure which solenoid he tapped but most times if something doesn’t work and you tap a solenoid, wiggle a wire whatever and it works, your action found the cause, within reason of course.

It doesn’t sound like a bad starter to me.

But what was the beeping noise? Something not getting enough voltage to work and beeping?

It’s a pretty common fault, from dirty / corroded contacts, they are physically touching but not transferring power through them due to the corrosion, tapping often makes enough contact to work, it’s not uncommon at all for enough current to get through to power low amp devices, but when you ask for high amps like a starter it can’t. Think loose battery connection, everything works until you hit the starter.

Very often when a solenoid starts this it’s time to replace it, largely because the dirty connection is most likely high resistance and that means high heat. I had a starter solenoid on a car weld itself shut and I had to snatch off the battery cable to make it stop once because of course a car doesn’t have a Master solenoid.

Back in the day you took the solenoid apart and cleaned the contacts, I don’t recommend that because it’s a temporary fix and most solenoids now aren’t made to be taken apart.

[Fly Boomer]

4 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

Back in the day you took the solenoid apart and cleaned the contacts, I don’t recommend that because it’s a temporary fix and most solenoids now aren’t made to be taken apart.

I can take anything apart.  That said, I often have trouble putting things back together.