M20M TLS as first plane , family travel plane , weight and balance

[Raffi]

Hi there,

I am a helicopter pilot , R44 logged about 400 hours and doing a transition to fixed wing for the moment. I am looking for a plane to travel with my family. Bonanza A36 would be ok, but they are too expensive in my opinion. I looked at a F33 bonanza , turns out that 2 adults , 2 kids and some luggage will ground you.. I want speed , a typical trip would be 450 nautical miles , from Belgium to Italy, yes there are some mountains... Would the M20M TLS do the job ( weights are 200 , 120 and the kids 90 + 90 pounds and some luggage.. ). I would like to have TKS too , weather isn't always or almost never fine here.  Is it easy to fly? How about spare parts? Thanks for helping me out !

[hubcap]

In my experience, most Mooneys have less than 1000 lbs useful load. My "K" model has 973lbs useful load, which allows me full fuel, 2 people and our luggage, which is perfect for my wife and I. The A36's will probably get you 150 - 200lbs of additional useful load.

So for your mission -

200 + 120 + 90 + 90 + 100lbs of baggage = 600 lbs leaving you enough weight for ~60 gallons of fuel. With IFR reserves that gives you about 4 hours of flying at 170kts TAS.

I believe many of the Bravos have less useful load than my K, so your mileage may vary.

[LANCECASPER]

7 minutes ago, Raffi said:

Hi there,

I am a helicopter pilot , R44 logged about 400 hours and doing a transition to fixed wing for the moment. I am looking for a plane to travel with my family. Bonanza A36 would be ok, but they are too expensive in my opinion. I looked at a F33 bonanza , turns out that 2 adults , 2 kids and some luggage will ground you.. I want speed , a typical trip would be 450 nautical miles , from Belgium to Italy, yes there are some mountains... Would the M20M TLS do the job ( weights are 200 , 120 and the kids 90 + 90 pounds and some luggage.. ). I would like to have TKS too , weather isn't always or almost never fine here.  Is it easy to fly? How about spare parts? Thanks for helping me out !

I don't know Bonanzas as well as Mooneys but useful load is most likely more in an F33 than a Mooney M20M.

With TKS full, a typical pre-G1000 Bravo would have about 900 pounds of useful load for people, baggage and fuel.

[Raffi]

thank you , the problem with the F33 is that the c of g is easily out of limits... how is this with mooney's?

[Rmnpilot]

I agree with Lance on the useful load.  My 1994 Bravo/TLS with TKS has a useful load of 968 lbs.   Its a balancing act.  Literally.  

 

[Hank]

Maybe @donkaye can shed some light on the useful load / CG question, along with transition training for a rotary wing pilot into a Bravo. He may even be available to do the training.

[Ragsf15e]

20 minutes ago, Raffi said:

thank you , the problem with the F33 is that the c of g is easily out of limits... how is this with mooney's?

Cg is more easily balanced with the mooney.  For a 450nm trip, you won’t need full tanks either, so you might be fine with a Bravo.  When you do the math think about how far an airplane can go within your weight limitations and see if that meets your needs. Obviously count ifr reserves.

Be advised that empty and useful weights are usually with empty TKS and the fluid is heavy.

[Schllc]

You would have to intentionally do something crazy to get a long body out of cg. 
play with the w & b in ForeFlight. 
Its nearly impossible. 
 

[Bolter]

1 hour ago, Raffi said:

Hi there,

I am a helicopter pilot , R44 logged about 400 hours and doing a transition to fixed wing for the moment. I am looking for a plane to travel with my family. Bonanza A36 would be ok, but they are too expensive in my opinion. I looked at a F33 bonanza , turns out that 2 adults , 2 kids and some luggage will ground you.. I want speed , a typical trip would be 450 nautical miles , from Belgium to Italy, yes there are some mountains... Would the M20M TLS do the job ( weights are 200 , 120 and the kids 90 + 90 pounds and some luggage.. ). I would like to have TKS too , weather isn't always or almost never fine here.  Is it easy to fly? How about spare parts? Thanks for helping me out !

How high do you need to climb to clear the mountains?  Keep in mind some family members do not want to use O2 masks.  An Ovation may meet your requirements, and broaden your options.

[Mcstealth]

46 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

 

Be advised that empty and useful weights are usually with empty TKS and the fluid is heavy.

I thought FIKI Mooneys were W&B'ed with full tks tanks?? 

 

[Pinecone]

For best useful load the Encore, or even better a 252 converted to Encore seems to be there.  Mine is 1119.    And Turbo, so high is good.

And more thrifty on fuel.  Mine does 174 KTAS on 10.3 GPH in the mid teens.

[Raffi]

42 minutes ago, Bolter said:

How high do you need to climb to clear the mountains?  Keep in mind some family members do not want to use O2 masks.  An Ovation may meet your requirements, and broaden your options.

Mountains in Switzerland are 10.000 to 12000 ft...

I can not open the jpg you attached...

[MatthiasArnold]

Hi Raffi,

Traveling with my M20R O2 from Aachen (Aken, Aix la Chapelle, Aquisgrana, you name it) to Italy under IFR approximately six times a year.
Equipped wit TKS & oxygen. Cruise altitude F150/F160 (MEA over the Swiss alps).
However, only with 2 persons, luggage & tanks topped up (very often AVGAS is temporarily not available at Italian airfields, check NOTAMS).

With 4 persons plus luggage you might easily run into W but not B problems (read as weight at takeoff over MTOM, CoG should be no factor).

Comparing M20M to M20R

• fuel consumption M20M higher than M20R
• M20M can easily climb over weather, with M20R it can take some while to reach F160..
• As mentioned above useful load is a limitation of both models (no factor with 2 person on board).

General remarks

• When taking the direct route over the Swiss alps TKS and oxygen are highly recommendde/mandatory.
• IFR highly recommended 

If you have more questions to feel free to contact me directly,

Best,
Matthias

------------

For those who are curious:
Aachen is a German city located very close (some km) from Netherlands and Belgium borders.
Depending on language it is named differently

• Aachen (German)
• Aken (Dutch, Flemish)
• Aix la Chapelle (French)
• Aquisgrana (Latin, Italian, Spanish?)
• ..

 

 

 

[Fly Boomer]

35 minutes ago, Raffi said:

Mountains in Switzerland are 10.000 to 12000 ft...

I can not open the jpg you attached...

That JPG is his map of states visited.  We had an unfortunate purge fairly recently, and lost quite a few pictures.

[Fly Boomer]

2 hours ago, Raffi said:

Would the M20M TLS do the job ( weights are 200 , 120 and the kids 90 + 90 pounds and some luggage.. ). I would like to have TKS too , weather isn't always or almost never fine here.  Is it easy to fly? How about spare parts? Thanks for helping me out !

Many great answers above.  I think you are on the right track with turbo, TKS, and oxygen.  Many people fly over the mountains with a normally aspirated engine, but altitude (and the ability to get up there quickly) is priceless.  Mooneys, in general, are pretty easy to fly, but transition training with a Mooney-specific instructor is very highly recommended.  Spare parts can be a problem, but less so for newer models like the M20M.  The factory is still making parts, albeit sometimes with a wait and frequently with a big price tag.  That said, I cannot think of anything without a big price tag these days.

[Raffi]

16 minutes ago, MatthiasArnold said:

Hi Raffi,

Traveling with my M20R O2 from Aachen (Aken, Aix la Chapelle, Aquisgrana, you name it) to Italy under IFR approximately six times a year.
Equipped wit TKS & oxygen. Cruise altitude F150/F160 (MEA over the Swiss alps).
However, only with 2 persons, luggage & tanks topped up (very often AVGAS is temporarily not available at Italian airfields, check NOTAMS).

With 4 persons plus luggage you might easily run into W but not B problems (read as weight at takeoff over MTOM, CoG should be no factor).

Comparing M20M to M20R

• fuel consumption M20M higher than M20R
• M20M can easily climb over weather, with M20R it can take some while to reach F160..
• As mentioned above useful load is a limitation of both models (no factor with 2 person on board).

General remarks

• When taking the direct route over the Swiss alps TKS and oxygen are highly recommendde/mandatory.
• IFR highly recommended 

If you have more questions to feel free to contact me directly,

Best,
Matthias

------------

For those who are curious:
Aachen is a German city located very close (some km) from Netherlands and Belgium borders.
Depending on language it is named differently

• Aachen (German)
• Aken (Dutch, Flemish)
• Aix la Chapelle (French)
• Aquisgrana (Latin, Italian, Spanish?)
• ..

 

 

 

Thank you! Is there a turbo normalized version or kit?

[Ibra]

I fly M20J with similar weights, it's doable but it gets tight if you are heavy with baggages, for start you need to stay with very long runways...the useful load on most of the Mooneys is < 1000lbs, of course there are some conversion unicorns here and there (I have flown one with 1200lbs)

IFR in Alps is +FL160, unless fly Swiss airways for Helicopters  or fly Austrian side, there you will need Oxygen, there is usually plenty of time and distance to climb from Belgium, I would not worry about M20M vs M20R debates unless you are based between mountains and planning an instrument departure from 8kft flat airport (altiports in Europe are 2400ft long and have 20deg slope), also, IFR-VFR-IFR at FL100 is easy to do in Western side of Alps, ATC are used to it, it makes sense if you like valley flying in calm winds and fair weather 

FIKI or TKS are useful in approach phases in Belgium (likely useless for cruise in icing over Alps in winter) 

Sorry for our American friends flight levels may start at 3000ft amsl on this side of the Atlantic: ok to Flight Levels without turbo or oxygen 

Edited April 12, 2023 by Ibra

[1980Mooney]

1 hour ago, Raffi said:

Hi there,

I am a helicopter pilot , R44 logged about 400 hours and doing a transition to fixed wing for the moment. I am looking for a plane to travel with my family. Bonanza A36 would be ok, but they are too expensive in my opinion. I looked at a F33 bonanza , turns out that 2 adults , 2 kids and some luggage will ground you.. I want speed , a typical trip would be 450 nautical miles , from Belgium to Italy, yes there are some mountains... Would the M20M TLS do the job ( weights are 200 , 120 and the kids 90 + 90 pounds and some luggage.. ). I would like to have TKS too , weather isn't always or almost never fine here.  Is it easy to fly? How about spare parts? Thanks for helping me out !

 

While you are thinking about family load hauling, don't forget that the "2 kids" will be growing probably rather rapidly - and the "adults" will also probably add lbs,, albeit more slowly, over time..  Maybe things are different in Europe but most teenagers I see nowadays, girls included, are bigger and heavier than I ever recall.   

Also, not sure who told you that "a F33 Bonanza, turns out that 2 adults , 2 kids and some luggage will ground you..".  When you say "grounds you" that means Useful Load is consumed by PAX and junk  - no weight left for fuel - right?  2 Adults  + 2 Kids won't "ground" any Bonanza ever built.  Someone must have mixed up Kg. for Lbs. Bonanza's will handily out-haul any Mooney built.  

F33 Bonanza was only built in 1970.  Only 20-25 were built . It kept the old Debonair 225 hp. IO-470.  Even so Useful Load was 1,065 lbs.

F33A Bonanza built 1971-1990.  Over 1,500 built.  285 hp. IO-520.  Useful Load out of the factory up to 1,467 lbs.  UL of 1,200 - 1,350 lbs is pretty common.  Additionally many GAMI modifications include GW increases (different improvements with different combinations of improved baffles, injectors, tip tanks, IO-550).  Turbo normalizing can take GW even higher.  https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/1998/september/pilot/bonanza-f33a https://gami.com/prgamitatgwi.pdf  https://taturbo.com/gwipr.html

 

[Ragsf15e]

1 hour ago, Mcstealth said:

I thought FIKI Mooneys were W&B'ed with full tks tanks?? 

 

I have asked that before and I got several different responses.  Actually it was unclear to some folks from their factory w&b.  However, they would “normally” be weighed with empty fuel and empty tks, but with oil.  It is a big difference, maybe some tks owners can comment?

[Bolter]

2 hours ago, Raffi said:

Mountains in Switzerland are 10.000 to 12000 ft...

I can not open the jpg you attached...

That is a range where a turbo may be nice, but not required.  Compare the performance of both Bravo and Ovation. 

My signature had a graphic which was lost from the file server.  Now it shows a dead link.

[Mcstealth]

4 hours ago, Pinecone said:

For best useful load the Encore, or even better a 252 converted to Encore seems to be there.  Mine is 1119.    And Turbo, so high is good.

And more thrifty on fuel.  Mine does 174 KTAS on 10.3 GPH in the mid teens.

There are no FIKI converted 252 to Encore. Just inadvertent. 

[Mcstealth]

2 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

I have asked that before and I got several different responses.  Actually it was unclear to some folks from their factory w&b.  However, they would “normally” be weighed with empty fuel and empty tks, but with oil.  It is a big difference, maybe some tks owners can comment?

@LANCECASPER

Lance, help... 

 

[larryb]

For 4 people on a regular basis you need a 6 seat airplane.

[1980Mooney]

1 hour ago, larryb said:

For 4 people on a regular basis you need a 6 seat airplane.

With 4 adults you are right.  But with 2 adults and two (2) 90+ lb. and growing children ( I will assume young teens) it can work for @Raffi for a window of time.  I have done it successfully.  

However, the good news/bad news reality is that as they get into their older teens the odds become more likely that they will either want to bring a "friend" (which is a "no-go" 5th pax in a Mooney) or they will conjure up semi-legitimate reasons/obligations to opt out of the family trip and stay home.  (The occurrence of the first situation will precipitate the second.)

Even if you buy a bigger plane, eventually 4 will become 3 and 3 will become 2. Buy the plane (4 seat or 6, Mooney or Bonanza), and enjoy it while you can.  

Edited April 13, 2023 by 1980Mooney

[carusoam]

M20M TLS… most have been updated to Bravo. Oil cooled heads are good for improved TBO….  Make sure to ask.

M20R… Many have been updated to 310hp from the original 280… If climbing into the teens often Go 310 HP.

There have NOT been any after market STCs to add a pair of TNs to the M20R yet….

For best performance…

M20TN… AKA Acclaim…

 

If you find M20U and M20V… they are the latest versions of the Ovation and Acclaim Ultras…. Complete with the latest avionics, some composite skins, and a spare door…

Best regards,

-a-