Insurance provider recommendations

[Balckbird]

I hope all is well. Does anyone have any insight or suggestions on insurance providers for a low time pilot looking to continue instrument rating training on its Mooney? Also, should I approach underwriters directly for a quote or work with a broker? If so, any suggestions on broker(s)? I appreciate any input. Thanks.

[Hank]

I've been using @Parker_Woodruff and Airspeed for several years. Great service.

[dzeleski]

^^^ What he said. Parker is easy to work with and will take care of you.

[AdamJD]

27 minutes ago, dzeleski said:

^^^ What he said. Parker is easy to work with and will take care of you.

Third endorsement for Parker (and Jack Stanley).  Helped me out this year.  Found the best price, provisions, etc.

[Marc_B]

I'll be the contrarian and say that if you're a low time pilot that AVEMCO may be your best bet.  When I was purchasing my M20K, AVEMCO was half ($4700/yr...yes, the policies I was quoted from everyone else were 10-11AMU/yr).  I would love to work with Parker due to the recommendations here, but I haven't quite hit the magic spot where rates "normalize."  @Parker_Woodruff where is the break point (hrs/ratings/etc.) where AVEMCO isn't a significant amount cheaper?  Of course I do understand the differences in policies and provisions.  I was actually surprised the last time I reached out now that I have 300+ hrs, IR and close to 200 hrs in type...of course this could be just the current climate and market??

[DonMuncy]

Parker is knowledgeable and will steer you right. He will probably tell you to contact Avemco as well. He has access to all the insurors except Avemo, who doesn't go through brokers.

[PT20J]

Avemco deals only direct. I believe all the other underwriters require you to go through a broker.

[Parker_Woodruff]

On 11/1/2022 at 10:46 AM, Marc_B said:

I'll be the contrarian and say that if you're a low time pilot that AVEMCO may be your best bet.  When I was purchasing my M20K, AVEMCO was half ($4700/yr...yes, the policies I was quoted from everyone else were 10-11AMU/yr).  I would love to work with Parker due to the recommendations here, but I haven't quite hit the magic spot where rates "normalize."  @Parker_Woodruff where is the break point (hrs/ratings/etc.) where AVEMCO isn't a significant amount cheaper?  Of course I do understand the differences in policies and provisions.  I was actually surprised the last time I reached out now that I have 300+ hrs, IR and close to 200 hrs in type...of course this could be just the current climate and market??

 

Based on your pilot experience, we'd probably do pretty well on an M20K.

300/400/500 hours and instrument rated can be good thresholds for us.  Sometimes even 200 hours and IR (as long as there's good RG hours).

Newer planes are doing better than older planes in this market.

We should have a new insurance carrier formally entering the light personal aircraft market around the first quarter of next year.

[redrider54]

4 hours ago, Marc_B said:

I'll be the contrarian and say that if you're a low time pilot that AVEMCO may be your best bet.  When I was purchasing my M20K, AVEMCO was half ($4700/yr...yes, the policies I was quoted from everyone else were 10-11AMU/yr).  I would love to work with Parker due to the recommendations here, but I haven't quite hit the magic spot where rates "normalize."  @Parker_Woodruff where is the break point (hrs/ratings/etc.) where AVEMCO isn't a significant amount cheaper?  Of course I do understand the differences in policies and provisions.  I was actually surprised the last time I reached out now that I have 300+ hrs, IR and close to 200 hrs in type...of course this could be just the current climate and market??

I too tried to go that route when I bought my Mooney 2 months ago but it was about double too. I settled with Avemco and it was a killer deal compared to all others.

For reference I bought my Mooney with 270 ASEL with IR, HP and 18hr Complex.  Maybe upon renewal they will be close or less but also Avemco will over a discount on renewal. 

[Jpravi8tor]

Avemco told me they wouldnt offer insurance coverage to me because the aircraft is registered to my LLC!

What say you @Parker_Woodruff

[1980Mooney]

6 hours ago, Marc_B said:

I'll be the contrarian and say that if you're a low time pilot that AVEMCO may be your best bet.  When I was purchasing my M20K, AVEMCO was half ($4700/yr...yes, the policies I was quoted from everyone else were 10-11AMU/yr).  I would love to work with Parker due to the recommendations here, but I haven't quite hit the magic spot where rates "normalize."  @Parker_Woodruff where is the break point (hrs/ratings/etc.) where AVEMCO isn't a significant amount cheaper?  Of course I do understand the differences in policies and provisions.  I was actually surprised the last time I reached out now that I have 300+ hrs, IR and close to 200 hrs in type...of course this could be just the current climate and market??

Ouch!

1 hour ago, Jpravi8tor said:

Avemco told me they wouldnt offer insurance coverage to me because the aircraft is registered to my LLC!

What say you @Parker_Woodruff

Just to be clear -

• so you have your plane in an LLC (maybe with other partners?)
• and you note you are an IA/A&P so I assume you are the LLC partner that will have primary responsibility for maintaining the airworthiness of the aircraft (i.e you are personally liable to the LLC for any claim in which maintenance played a role).
• so you must be personally leasing the aircraft from the LLC when you act as PIC and fly yourself or others 
• and if/when you preform maintenance on the aircraft then you personally are billing the LLC.

1. Are you trying to get "Renters Insurance" from Avemco to protect your liability when, as lessee, you will be the PIC and operator of the aircraft and be in “operational control” of the flight.  You will be held personally liable for all actions attributable to your own negligence or other unlawful conduct during that flight apart from the LLC.
2. Or are you trying to get Hull (and Liability) insurance for the LLC from Avemco?  This will protect the LLC regardless of who is PIC.
3. Are you trying to get these as separate policies or one policy together?
4. Do you have a separate A&P insurance policy which the LLC will claim against in the case of an incident attributed to maintenance? (or are you doing work bare so that the LLC will have a claim against you personally?)

It seems to me if you get one policy together (instead of separate policies) that will highlight the LLC as a sham.  What am I missing?

What say you @Parker_Woodruff

Edited November 1, 2022 by 1980Mooney

[Jpravi8tor]

I am an ATP A&P IA aircraft owner who solely owns the aircraft in question which is registered to my LLC which I am the sole owner.

i was told by the Avemco representative since the aircraft was registered to a business they would not insure for hull and liability.

I believe the young man (read inexperienced) wasn’t quite knowledgeable about the subject. Maybe I’m wrong I will follow up Tomorrow.

[Vance Harral]

Avemco does not have a blanket policy against insuring an aircraft owned registered to an LLC.  I can say this with confidence, because I hold in my hand at this very moment a letter from Avemco addressed to the LLC that owns our partnership airplane, thanking us for insuring our aircraft with Avemco this year, and offering to renew the policy for next year.  Either the person you spoke with at Avemco is misinformed, or there is something more to the situation than just the fact your aircraft is registered to an LLC.

[carusoam]

Welcome aboard Bb!

+1 for having Parker on the speed dial…

Nobody can explain how aviation insurance actually works… better than Parker…!

Go Airspeed Insurance! (Parker’s business name…?)

Best regards,

-a-

 

[Parker_Woodruff]

15 hours ago, Jpravi8tor said:

Avemco told me they wouldnt offer insurance coverage to me because the aircraft is registered to my LLC!

What say you @Parker_Woodruff

I have heard that happening but I don't know if that's their policy nationwide or state-by-state.  Someone above might be onto something as to whether the aircraft is for business use or just a holding company.

[Jpravi8tor]

I spoke to an Avemco representative and he quoted me as an LLC owner Hull and Liability, I'm thinking the previous agent had a misunderstanding.

 

[tcal780]

My 70C is also registered to an LLC, and insured by Avemco. They had the best deal for me, a year ago, when I purchased the bird. Then, I had 80hrs TT, 0 complex, nor an instrument rating.

Since May of this year, I've earned my instrument ticket and logged 130 hrs in the Mooney. Avemco gave me a discount at 75hrs in type and another with the IFR cert. Based in Eastern PA, it has a hull value of $80k, it's hangared, and I pay around $2900/yr.

I'm told to expect another discount when I reach 175 hrs in type. Maybe in the spring, after I get my Commercial, I'll shop around again.

[Keith20EH]

Avemco wouldn’t wouldn’t touch my E based on a grass strip.  12,000+ hour pilot and high RG time didn’t matter.

[Pinecone]

FYI, I am through Falcon for both my renter's insurance and my plane.

But I am USAA for house and cars, and they have an agreement with Falcon.  From what I was told, there is a group in Falcon that only deals with USAA customers.

[KLRDMD]

On 11/1/2022 at 8:46 AM, Marc_B said:

I'll be the contrarian and say that if you're a low time pilot that AVEMCO may be your best bet.

Even if you aren't a low time pilot, AVEMCO may be the best option. My broker of 20+ years couldn't meet the AVEMCO quote for the last three years but for the previous two years I stuck with her since the difference was a couple of hundred dollars and I valued the long term relationship. But this year AVEMCO was well over $1,000 less than my long time broker could do, and with better terms. AVEMCO offered $0 deductibles for in motion and not in motion versus $2,500/$250 as an example.

And I'm not exactly a low time guy with over 2,500 hours, CFI, CFII, MEI, ATP and close to 200 hours time in type.

[carusoam]

1 hour ago, Pinecone said:

FYI, I am through Falcon for both my renter's insurance and my plane.

But I am USAA for house and cars, and they have an agreement with Falcon.  From what I was told, there is a group in Falcon that only deals with USAA customers.

if you are military… or son of military…

You know USAA….

USAA doesn’t insure planes… so they introduce you to Falcon…

Falcon tries pretty hard and does a good job getting insurance for GA planes….

 

Now… for the interesting details….

You know Parker?

Did you know he used to fly an M20K?

He went through the efforts of upgrading it with the 252 performance package….

Parker started working at Falcon a long time ago….

Before starting AirSpeed insurance… and getting married….   

 

Soooo…. If you need an insurance guy who knows GA Mooney flying….   and Mooney upgrades….
 

Find Parker….

No military experience required…. 
 

Best regards,

-a-

[Pinecone]

I will be talking to Parker when renewal time comes.

[kortopates]

Even if you aren't a low time pilot, AVEMCO may be the best option. My broker of 20+ years couldn't meet the AVEMCO quote for the last three years but for the previous two years I stuck with her since the difference was a couple of hundred dollars and I valued the long term relationship. But this year AVEMCO was well over $1,000 less than my long time broker could do, and with better terms. AVEMCO offered $0 deductibles for in motion and not in motion versus $2,500/$250 as an example.
And I'm not exactly a low time guy with over 2,500 hours, CFI, CFII, MEI, ATP and close to 200 hours time in type.

But where they really comparable in limits and geographical coverage?
Avemco doesn’t offer smooth limits and I recall they didn’t include CENAM; perhaps just Canada, Mexico, Bahamas and US.


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[Jpravi8tor]

++ @Parker_Woodruff Parker is your guy!

[MikeOH]

Another consideration: AVEMCO limits liability to $100K per person, both in the aircraft (typical of most policies) AND for anyone on the ground (normally the $1MM would apply to those injured on the ground).  IOW, AVEMCO's wording is a bodily injury liability limit of $100K per PERSON (regardless of passenger or other), whereas my policy states bodily injury liability limit of $100K per PASSENGER, and $1 million per OCCURRENCE.