I was wrong (MSC vs Local IA)

[ilovecornfields]

So, when I bought my Ovation I INSISTED that the prebuy could only be done by The Best MSC (located in a state where they wear big hats) and that my annuals could only be done by MSCs. A lot of it was based on what I read here about the clear superiority of some shops compared to others. Overall, things went fine, but some stuff always got missed (sometimes big, sometimes small) and they were always $6k-$12k (without accounting  for the “missed items.”)

I have a friend with a Bonanza who insisted that his IA was meticulous and would do a great job on an annual but I resisted because as we all know, Mooneys are special. I eventually approached him about doing the annual and acknowledged that I knew many mechanics didn’t like working on Mooneys because they were so difficult to work on but he made a comment that it was more the owners than the airplanes that made mechanics want to stay away.

Long story short, did my post-annual test flight today and the plane has never run smoother. I almost over rotated because the control pressures were so light without all the extra friction. He showed me several areas where “required” items had either never been done or hadn’t been done in a long time, despite the last 4 annuals being done at highly respected MSCs. He said some of the stuff was a pain in the a$$ to get to so he wasn’t surprised that it had been skipped, but he also said he wasn’t impressed (or surprised).

I have to admit, I was an “only an MSC gets to touch MY plane” snob and I was completely wrong. The sad part is that my new mechanic is going to retire soon but he promised to keep a few of his clients around so he doesn’t get bored. 

Oh, I forgot to mention this annual took less than half as long and cost half as much as my fastest and least expensive annuals. He had a procedure coming up so he worked through the weekend because he doesn’t like the annuals to take more than a week.

I also don’t mean to imply that all MSCs are bad or a waste of money - it’s just that It seems the supervision at some of these shops isn’t the best and a good mechanic is a good mechanic, regardless of where they work.

I wonder what other aviation ”facts” I’ve been wrong about? Maybe I should be doing the initial climb at Vx after all…

[chriscalandro]

Good luck with that.  Just like I ONLY take my El Camino to the finest Chevrolet service centers, I ONLY take my 67 Mooney to the finest of Mooney Service Centers.

 

Nobody else has the knowledge or experience to work on this assembly of aluminum, most widely used engine in the world, or magical pushrod system.

[cujet]

As Director of Maintenance in a very high end Corporate Flight Department, we do use factory service centers when it's smart. Almost universally, Gulfstream service centers "can" with proper oversight, provide excellent service, with no squawks on departure and a year of trouble-free operation. As we go on down the line in aircraft prowess, each subsequent step is a step down in overall quality. The Pilatus and it's service center is far less capable than Gulfstream, and squawks upon departure are the norm. The Eurocopter service centers are the places to go if you want your lead-acid battery drained flat, your fire bottle blown, the wiring shorted by a careless young tech, parts changed due to misunderstanding of the "regs", parts on backorder for 18 months and so on. Move down to the piston stuff and the low-paid tech uses shop air to clean the composite elevator drain holes, blowing it up like a balloon through delamination. The small service centers nearly always damage something and try to hide it. 

However, over the last 25 years, when I do in-house maintenance with my IA and small crew, we have never missed or overlooked a required task, use 3 sets of eyes on each airworthy R-II item, every squawk is handled and the aircraft leave our hands squawk-free. In fact, I can't recall ever having to "fix" anything after the fact. I'm sure my day is coming, but 25 years is a great run, and the polar opposite of my service center experiences. 

 

Edited October 19, 2021 by cujet

[EricJ]

Many of us have stories of taking airplanes (of differing brands and models) to the most highly acknowledged service center for that particular aircraft and coming away with issues or missed items or just bad work.   Often the work is done, at least in part, by hired hands that might be less than stellar for whatever reason and work insufficiently supervised.   Sometimes stuff just gets missed, and human error is essentially unavoidable.

For all these reasons I've never hesitated to just have "competent" hands do work when necessary, and I think having local competent talent is better than far-away "expert" talent.    It's also why I went back to school to get A&P ratings myself.

When you find a good doctor, lawyer, mechanic, A&P, or IA, you do what you can to keep them because finding them is often hard.

 

 

Edited October 19, 2021 by EricJ

[PilotX]

I take my Mooney to the mechanic I have known for 7 years who worked on my last plane. I did all of the service items myself even replaced my own tires. It was the first annual since I purchased the Bravo. When I had a pop-up issue right before a flight, he came over on a golf cart, to my hangar and resolved it. I asked for a bill, they said bring donuts.  I have heard mixed reviews from MSCs, my dealings - mainly parts and advice - have been great but I go with who I trust and who is local because they are just frigging awesome.

[Dream to fly]

Been a mechanic for 30 years ASE certified 28 of those 30.  I have made mistakes and so have my friends at the dealerships.  At the end of the work week we swap stories and drink a beer talking about all those smart customers who pick sides.  Reality is a factory service center or an independent has the lazy challenged mechanic and the efficient and super talented mechanic all working under the same roof.  All the places have human interaction and sometimes mistakes happen.   Go where you feel the most comfortable and where you get the warm fuzzy you feel you deserve.  No matter what path you pick someday it will happen and the repair you get will be stellar or a disaster.  It is how you handle it will determine whether or not the outcome continues.  I have personally had experience on both sides in the transportation industry and its a crap shoot.  But if you don't own a Mooney and drive a Ford I am not impressed

[cujet]

I'd like to add the following thoughts. While aviation is not cheap, and neglect has traditionally been a real problem,,,, let's assume we don't neglect things and repair/inspect properly,,,,, It's still up to the owner whether maintenance is $4,000 or $40,000. The easiest example I can give is the not uncommon mid-time Lycoming 4 cyl camshaft problem. It is absolutely acceptable to replace the cam and lifters on an otherwise healthy engine. The parts are $1K, the labor can be as low as $3-4K. The result is an airworthy engine with (for example) 800 of hours remaining time before overhaul (which could be 10 years or more). And we get our investment out of the original engine. Or we can simply exchange the engine for a factory overhaul, and $40,000 later we have a healthy zero time roller cam engine, which may not be statistically safer. 

 

My point is this, your local IA is very likely more qualified and experienced than the low pay tech at the service center. He is not likely to try to make a big profit on selling you new parts you don't need. He also has a personal interest in your safety, as it's his signature in the logbook. 

 

But here is the reality of the situation:

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 19, 2021 by cujet

[Amelia]

Amen, brother! My hometown mechanic is splendid, even without the fancy logo. He did an annual on a Mooney that had just had a prebuy from a Very Famous Mooney Shop, and was appalled at the stuff that was skipped, or done poorly. It turned into a much bigger job than it ought to have been. I believe it must be easy to outgrow your capabilities, become too big to supervise a large staff, too tempting to simply rest on laurels. My airplane may back go to a MSC one day, just for a second set of eyes,  but it will be a much smaller place, much closer by, with superb workmanship to match its good reputation. 

[Niko182]

Would you mind sharing the info of the IA? For my next annual id love to do owner assisted and I'm somewhat local to you.

[jetdriven]

I’d be curious to know what kind of quality control, continuing education, and certification/recertification standards it takes to call yourself an MSC. 
Cause I just fished these rags from a MSC oil change less than an hour after it was done.
He brought it to me for an oil leak they quoted 20hr labor to find.   It was easy to find. And they just changed the oil they could have found it too. 

Edited October 20, 2021 by jetdriven

[Ragsf15e]

To be fair to some of the MSCs do outstanding work, have great reputations, and even take their time helping others on this site (@M20Doc @AGL Aviation).  I’d take my airplane to either of those in a heartbeat.  It’s just like anything else, some good, some not.  Same with owners.

[Guest]

I don’t think it makes a difference whether you go to an MSC or not.  It comes down to the mind set of the maintainers, if they care about their work you and your plane will benefit.  Regardless of where you take your plane there are things you can do as well.  Bring your plane to the shop clean and tidy, if you appear to care about your plane your maintainer will as well.

Clarence

[eman1200]

 

SAY IT ISN'T SO!!!! You'll give some of the elder mooneyspace statesman a heart attack!  Soon you'll be tracked in a spreadsheet so 10 years from now when you need to get something fixed they can say "see we told you so!"

 

also, it's time for me to schedule my annual with @AGL Aviation  I don't think they do IFR checks, does anyone know offhand?

 

[kpaul]

36 minutes ago, eman1200 said:

 

SAY IT ISN'T SO!!!! You'll give some of the elder mooneyspace statesman a heart attack!  Soon you'll be tracked in a spreadsheet so 10 years from now when you need to get something fixed they can say "see we told you so!"

 

also, it's time for me to schedule my annual with @AGL Aviation  I don't think they do IFR checks, does anyone know offhand?

 

They do not do the IFR checks, however, they have a couple of folks that will come to KMRN to complete the checks.  Make sure you let them know and hopefully it can get scheduled during your annual.   That is what I had to do in the past.

[GeeBee]

I use a local IA, who does a great job and knows Mooney's well. However, I have about 5 shops I frequent for different reasons, some MSCs, and I often give them some work that will put a different set of eyes on my airplane. Every shop has their points of emphasis, it is human nature that it is so. I find a different set of eyes will often point up an issue which another shop is more sanguine about. (If you don't believe me change doctors and see what happens)

As for lubrication, I do it my self using the Mooney manual as a checklist. I find most mechanics more than willing to hand off the mundane work of spraying Heim bearings with Trim-Flow and greasing jacks screws and push rods. It is a great way to get to know your airplane. Just make sure you have a really comfortable creeper

[JimB]

1 minute ago, GeeBee said:

I use a local IA, who does a great job and knows Mooney's well. However, I have about 5 shops I frequent for different reasons, and I often give them some work that will put a different set of eyes on my airplane. Every shop has their points of emphasis, it is human nature that it is so. I find a different set of eyes will often point up an issue which another shop is more sanguine about.

Using a different shop or IA every so often is excellent advice. I do my own annuals but I also have some other guys that I know look at my plane every 2-3 years. Anyone can miss something and having a fresh set of eyes look things over every once in a while is a really good practice. 

[Bob - S50]

It's not the name on the door that makes a difference, it's the people inside that make the difference.  The name that used to be great may not be so after the owner retires and sells the shop.

Like a wife or husband, it's sometimes hard to find a good mechanic.  But once you do, never be the one responsible for ending that relationship.

[Bob - S50]

• •  

 

•  

 

 

But here is the reality of the situation:

 

 

However, keep in mind that those graphs may be misleading if they show actual number of accidents rather than accident rates per aircraft in each category.  For example, if I start with 200 aircraft and 60 of them have an engine failure in the first 500 hours of life, there are now only 140 aircraft left while the 60 that had the problem and got fixed go back into the pool with less than 500 hours.  If 40 of the 140 that have 500 - 1000 hours have an engine failure, there are now only 100 aircraft left to continue while the 40 get fixed and go back into the pool of under 500 hours.  As you continue along with that logic, there are fewer and fewer aircraft actually flying that reach those higher hourly totals.  That, by itself, will reduce the number of engine failures.  And each one that does fail and gets repaired goes back into the 0 to 500 hour pool.  Many of those engines may never fail because they get pulled and overhauled and then go back into the 0 - 500 hours pool.  If those graphs showed failures/number of aircraft meeting the criteria, I think the graph would be much less skewed.  That of course means that while we may not need to pull engines early for an overhaul, it also means an engine may fail at any time and we must always be prepared.

Edited October 20, 2021 by Bob - S50

[mike_elliott]

18 minutes ago, Bob - S50 said:

Like a wife or husband, it's sometimes hard to find a good mechanic.  But once you do, never be the one responsible for ending that relationship.

Kind of like Lynn and Tamara Mace at AGL or JD and Laura Casteele at SWTA. Both sets of couples are A$P's and place honesty at the top of their deliverables. Honorable mention also to Paul Beck and Eric Rudningen of Oasis Aero..but they aren't married

Full discloser: all of the above great MSC shops are sponsors of the Mooney Summit and give back to the Mooney Community like Clarence

 

[A64Pilot]

It’s the individual mechanic that does the work, whether they work for themselves of a company doesn’t  really matter, some are good and some aren’t.

Any company with several employees will have some better than others. So don’t blame the MSC necessarily, other than maybe their failure to supervise etc.

Different mechanics can explain why some have excellent service, and others don’t from the same shop.

However if you work with a one man shop, we’ll then you know who should be blamed, or congratulated and thanked.

[Guest]

6 hours ago, JimB said:

Using a different shop or IA every so often is excellent advice. I do my own annuals but I also have some other guys that I know look at my plane every 2-3 years. Anyone can miss something and having a fresh set of eyes look things over every once in a while is a really good practice. 

So following this guidance, I’ll have to farm my annuals out to the guy across the ramp.  I don’t think my wife will go for it.

Clarence

[MisfitSELF]

I used to take my Toyota MR-2 only to Toyota Dealerships for Oil Changes and Maintenance....you know, because they are the experts, right?  That stopped on the day the Toyota certified grease monkey needed my help finding the engine...

[DXB]

Related thoughts: 

1. Nothing matters more than the specific individual turning wrenches on the plane.  After a couple of sketchy (albeit partly positive) MSC experiences, the non-MSC shop that I subsequently grew to trust for annuals did excellent, fairly priced work for me 4 years in a row. The 5th year, their work was complete trash, as was the subsequent customer service to remediate - turns out it was only a particular IA there who deserved my trust (BTW thanks Jeff Vamos), and he didn't do the annual the 5th year.

2. A shop that lets me talk to the actual person doing the work at every step is vastly preferable to a place that forces me to communicate with a service manager.  I will flat out refuse to deal with outfits that do the latter going forward. 

3. No matter how good the A&P doing the work is, there is no substitute for the customer developing a more than superficial understanding of the item being addressed and congenially engaging the A&P in discussion about it.  

4. The landing gear, control rigging, and trim system deserve someone who knows the Mooney specific details intimately. There are people at some MSCs who are total nincompoops with this stuff.  And there are some very knowledgeable people outside MSCs who do this Mooney-specific stuff well - e.g. @jetdriven who did my annual last year.

5. The people you need to do the stuff under #4 may sometimes not be the best people to do some other types of work, and there is no single individual who has stellar skills to address every possible issue with your plane. The very best A&Ps have idiosyncratic blind spots and misconceptions like the rest of us, and so it's worth changing up who does the annual periodically.  Fresh eyes do make a big difference, and when they catch stuff, that doesn't mean the person who regularly works on your plane is bad necessarily.

Edited October 21, 2021 by DXB

[JimB]

14 hours ago, M20Doc said:

So following this guidance, I’ll have to farm my annuals out to the guy across the ramp.  I don’t think my wife will go for it.

Clarence

I'd be happy for you to look my aircraft over if you wanted me to inspect yours.