Interior refurbishment

[cirrostratus]

Does interior refurbishment need a a&p sign off?

 

If looking to replace for example head liner, what materials is acceptable to use? Is there an aviation only approved fabric or can anything be used? What have other folks used?

 

 

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[Bob E]

Materials that make up the aircraft interior must pass certain burn certification tests. The exact test required is dependent upon the operation of the aircraft and/or the size of the aircraft. The maintenance record entry should state that the interior components – including the adhesives – meet the requirements of the appropriate regulations (14 CFR Part 25.853). In addition, a complete interior certification package should be with the aircraft maintenance records including all of the burn certification documentation for each piece of material used during the installation.

The easy way to ensure compliance (and safety) is to purchase interior materials only from aviation suppliers, who will provide "statements of compliance" for the items you purchase, to retain with the aircraft's logs.

You can do upholstery work yourself with approved materials.

[Yetti]

Kind of,   Technically Mooney are under CAR3 certification so that is what material needs to be certified to.  There is an AC for burn certification that tries to make CAR3 planes go with the higher standard.... but as we know AC are not legal.   That said work with the IA that will sign off the plane as he/she needs to sign off on the work.    I made the entry to say it conformed with the AC.   I burn tested some leather.   The same sample of leather passed 3 burn tests.   You are supposed to use new leather each time.  The burn box specified in the AC for testing in no way simulates real world of how the material in the plane would actually burn.

[carusoam]

Cirro,

Are you familiar with the list of things an owner/pilot is allowed to do on his own plane?

The FAA has a list of something like 20+ project types an owner can do…

Like any government document… it gets tested and tried and adjusted over time… AOPA does a really good job at defining these for pilots…

Lots of definitions are important…

proper materials are important…

proper procedures to finish the job is important…

Expect changing fabrics on chairs and walls to be OK…

But disconnecting flight controls to install the rug…. Needs your mechanic to be involved…

In the end… WnB needs to be updated…

 

It is really helpful to have a mechanic that you can work with to keep things on the level prior to starting your work…

This will minimize any surprises that you create for yourself…

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic…

Best regards,

-a- 

[MikeOH]

8 minutes ago, Yetti said:

Kind of,   Technically Mooney are under CAR3 certification so that is what material needs to be certified to.  There is an AC for burn certification that tries to make CAR3 planes go with the higher standard.... but as we know AC are not legal.   That said work with the IA that will sign off the plane as he/she needs to sign off on the work.    I made the entry to say it conformed with the AC.   I burn tested some leather.   The same sample of leather passed 3 burn tests.   You are supposed to use new leather each time.  The burn box specified in the AC for testing in no way simulates real world of how the material in the plane would actually burn.

While I get the need to document the burn test, why does an IA have to sign off the work?  I thought part 43 allowed owner refurbishment of interiors.

[Yetti]

2 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

While I get the need to document the burn test, why does an IA have to sign off the work?  I thought part 43 allowed owner refurbishment of interiors.

Who signs off the plane at Annual?

[Yetti]

Or put another way.   Let's say all your material is certed.   But the install of said material is not up to good workmanship.

[MikeOH]

Just now, Yetti said:

Who signs off the plane at Annual?

I'm missing your point.  Either I'm allowed to do certain tasks and sign them off, or I'm not.  Obviously, if I don't do them properly a future IA could call me on it.  But, that is NOT the same as having to have an IA sign off my work.

[MikeOH]

1 minute ago, Yetti said:

Or put another way.   Let's say all your material is certed.   But the install of said material is not up to good workmanship.

You typed faster!

[Yetti]

1 minute ago, MikeOH said:

You typed faster!

Ya I hated that my mom made me take typing class during summer on a manual typewriter.   But now I thank her.

[PT20J]

AC 43.13-1B 9-61 a. (2) If an annual inspection is performed on a CAR-3 aircraft with a new interior and there is no mention of a manufacturer's statement that the fabric is flash or flame resistant as applicable, the possibility exists that the fabric is an unapproved part. The mechanic should take the necessary steps to ensure that the fabric meets or exceeds the ASTM or national standards.

It is not difficult to source material with the proper burn certs. CAR-3 requirements were pretty minimal. Why wouldn't you want the safest materials that meet current standards?

Skip

[BKlott]

1 hour ago, Yetti said:

Or put another way.   Let's say all your material is certed.   But the install of said material is not up to good workmanship.

Then when you go to sell your airplane with the “new interior”, the potential buyers will think to themselves “yeah, another cheap, homemade interior job”. 

[mike_elliott]

8 hours ago, PT20J said:

AC 43.13-1B 9-61 a. (2) If an annual inspection is performed on a CAR-3 aircraft with a new interior and there is no mention of a manufacturer's statement that the fabric is flash or flame resistant as applicable, the possibility exists that the fabric is an unapproved part. The mechanic should take the necessary steps to ensure that the fabric meets or exceeds the ASTM or national standards.

It is not difficult to source material with the proper burn certs. CAR-3 requirements were pretty minimal. Why wouldn't you want the safest materials that meet current standards?

Skip

back in CAR-3 days, a lot of people actually smoked and flew at the same time. My old F even had an ashtray. Flame resistant materials were far more important in reality than they are now simply because of this. Getting materials that meet CAR-3 is easy enough, but a whole lot of energy is spent on compliance verification in todays flying environment and conditions. From an installation standpoint, most A&P's do not have the skillsets your grandma does when it comes to making it look like a professional job fabric wise, but they sure outshine grandma on log entry skillsets. It would be interesting to see how many NTSB reports list "a contributing factor was the owners failure to insure all interior materials meet or exceed ASTM or national standards" in their final reports.

[cirrostratus]

Appreciate everyone’s feedback!

I’m sure at least a few of you have done an interior refurb, like a headliner replacement on your own? If I may, where did you get the approved material from? Any suggestions or recommendations for where to shop?


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[mike_elliott]

Back when I did mine, I found a nice grey leather on Ebay and asked the seller if he had burn certs ... and he did! He happily forwarded them to me. The late great Bob Bellville sent his off to a lab for testing at the cost of about 150 if memory serves me right. 

[Igor_U]

45 minutes ago, cirrostratus said:

Appreciate everyone’s feedback!

I’m sure at least a few of you have done an interior refurb, like a headliner replacement on your own? If I may, where did you get the approved material from? Any suggestions or recommendations for where to shop?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I recently bought carpet from Airtex and it came certified with paperwork. 
When I covered the interior panels with Ultraleather, i sent samples to Scandia labs for a burn test. IIRC, it cost $20-30 but that was 15y ago

[DCarlton]

Hard to get your head around some of the requirements.  The airplane is full of fuel and oil, but if you refurbish an arm rest or trim piece on a plastic interior panel, you appear to need burn certs...  

[LANCECASPER]

2 hours ago, DCarlton said:

Hard to get your head around some of the requirements.  The airplane is full of fuel and oil, but if you refurbish an arm rest or trim piece on a plastic interior panel, you appear to need burn certs...  

That's sort of the point. If anything inside the airplane burns so fast so that you can't put it out with the small fire extinguisher on board, there's a lot of fuel that you're carrying which will eventually burn.

[Yetti]

 

[DCarlton]

4 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

That's sort of the point. If anything inside the airplane burns so fast so that you can't put it out with the small fire extinguisher on board, there's a lot of fuel that you're carrying which will eventually burn.

Didn't M20s have ash trays and cigarette lighters as original equipment?  Would be interesting to know what year those were removed from the design. 

Edited October 19, 2021 by DCarlton

[LANCECASPER]

7 hours ago, DCarlton said:

Didn't M20s have ash trays and cigarette lighters as original equipment?  Would be interesting to know what year those were removed from the design. 

Somewhere in the 90's. My '93 had an ashtray in the armrest before I updated the interior.

[JoeM]

Bruce Jaeger used and recommended Douglass https://douglassinteriorproducts.com/. I have ordered from them but they require you go through an interior shop (doesn't have to be an aviation shop so I used a car/boat guy). Their fabrics come with burn certs. 

[Yetti]

1975 had ashtrays

[cliffy]

If one digs into the prevailing AC-    AC 43.13-1B 9-61 a 1  it shows the following-

(1) If fabric is bought in bulk to refurbish the interior, seats, and ceiling liners for a CAR-3 aircraft used in part 91 operations, a manufacturer’s statement, declaring that the material meets the American Society for Testing and Materials (ASTM) or similar national standard for either flash resistance or flame resistance, would be acceptable, but only for a CAR-3 aircraft installation. (Refer to 14 CFR part 43, section 43.13(a).) A manufacturer’s statement is acceptable due to neither the Civil Aeronautics Administration (CAA) nor the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) having published an FAA fire standard for either flash or flame resistance for interior materials for CAR-3 aircraft. Since the FAA would accept and recognize a national standard, the mechanic would reference the manufacturer’s statement and the national standard that the material meets in the aircraft’s maintenance records.

ALL fabrics and carpets sold for residential or commercial use in the USA have had to meet a national standard for flammability for decades now. One only has to query the fabric manufacture for its fabric standards for the particular fabric (most of the time it is on a website somewhere). It is not that hard to find what "national" standard they meet. Both vinyl and woven fabrics meet these standards. Automobile fabrics meet flammability standards.  You just have to find what they meet and include that in the sign off for the interior. 

There is also a spray on treatment available to make an interior meet Pt 23 flammability standards. 

Pilot/owners are allowed to replace the cabin surface coverings in their airplanes with the proper sign off in the airframe log book. 

Weight and Balance restrictions apply,  + or- 1 pound difference requires an A&P W&B sign off. 

Getting "Pt 23 burn certs" is an easy way to comply as mentioned above if one wants to go that way. 

Finding "approved " Pt 23 burn cert fabrics is not that hard to do either. Nor really much more expensive. 

I caution you on your headliner change if you have never done one before. Its not as easy as it first appears. But its no different than a 1952 Chevy headliner.

The sidewalls and baggage compartment are lots easier to do.  Get a kit from AirTex for the seats unless you are a professional auto trimmer and really know how to use a walking foot sewing machine.  

[47U]

On 10/17/2021 at 11:25 AM, cirrostratus said:

If looking to replace for example head liner,

2 hours ago, cliffy said:

I caution you on your headliner change if you have never done one before. Its not as easy as it first appears. But its no different than a 1952 Chevy headliner.

Words of wisdom from Cliffy, at least for my ‘63 C.  The Airtex headliner I installed was top quality.  It turned out great, but my skill set is not upholstery-shop quality.  After I was finished, I told my comptroller that I should have requested funds to have the shop install it.  There’s lots of measuring and trimming and the retainer strips around the cabin and baggage door frames are evil.  If you have overhead panels, your experience will be different, I’m sure.  I watched (and rewatched) a couple YouTube videos on vintage car headliner installation.

Once the old headliner is removed, inspect the vinyl hose connection between the fresh air box drain fitting and the drain tube.  And inspect the drain tube for splits where water may have been trapped and frozen.  The vent box fresh air hoses and fiberglass insulation might also need upgrading.  My fresh air hoses were original and had exceeded their service life.  The drain connection was petrified.  (Previous owner carried electrical tape in his fly-away kit and if parked on the ramp would seal the fresh air scoop seams with the tape.)

Once the headliner is hung from the bows, the real fun begins.  I sat on a bleachers seat (placed on a piece of plywood between the spar and baggage floor) to save my back.

It does look a lot better than the old headliner.  I painted all my interior royalite parts and replaced the cabin/baggage door windlace, too.  

It’s a job that’s not beyond the average CB’s abilities, if you do some research and take your time.