Ordering a new starter, needs advice

[flyingchump]

So yesterday my starter pissed me off for the last time...  It decided it didn't want to work again...  I hear a healthy click from the starter solenoid but nothing else.  No starter rotation at all.  This has happened before and the starter was IRAN'ed about 10 hours ago.  It was a bad solder joint in the field winding at the terminal.  and before that is was a sticky Bendix...  and the time before that... so on.  I wanted to keep the old heavy duty starter as I thought they were bullet proof...  I guess not, its let me down too many times.

It might not have been so bad but my wife and I were on an island, no mechanic on the field, on a Friday afternoon so the FBO left early, not knowing anyone local, with no rental cars available...  Not happy.  

I tried smacking it with hammer, nothing.  I had a volt meter and checked the voltages, all good.  What the hell, lets try hand propping...  What could go wrong right?  Surprisingly nothing went wrong.  My wife operated the throttle and mixtures (for the first time) and I threw blades.  It started after 6-7 blades!!!  All checks good!  Lets go home!

So now I'm ordering a skytec starter, 149-NL (I counted teeth), but is there anything else I need to order to make the swap?  I heard about needing a longer starter cable but can't find solid info on that.  I'm tiring to avoid the plane being grounded for weeks by placing on order for everything instead of placing multiple orders to get the "unknown parts" later.

66E, IO-360 A1A

[MB65E]

Can’t comment on the exact starter cable length.  My LS starter died just prior to OSH. I installed a 149NL, and the cable length didn’t need to be adjusted. You may need to modify the fwd baffling. 
For the record. The B&C starter will not fit. It hits the fuel servo by about an 1/8”. 
I had a spare and thought hey that will work. Nope! B&C internals are far better. Skytec uses plastic parts in the starter. 
-Matt

[flyingchump]

34 minutes ago, MB65E said:

Can’t comment on the exact starter cable length.  My LS starter died just prior to OSH. I installed a 149NL, and the cable length didn’t need to be adjusted. You may need to modify the fwd baffling. 
For the record. The B&C starter will not fit. It hits the fuel servo by about an 1/8”. 
I had a spare and thought hey that will work. Nope! B&C internals are far better. Skytec uses plastic parts in the starter. 
-Matt

I'd love to have the B&C starter.  The cost of it held me back but knowing it hits the FS is more important. 

I've heard about the skytec issues but I don't see another option that's much better.

Thanks for sharing.

[M20F-1968]

34 minutes ago, flyingchump said:

So yesterday my starter pissed me off for the last time...  It decided it didn't want to work again...  I hear a healthy click from the starter solenoid but nothing else.  No starter rotation at all.  This has happened before and the starter was IRAN'ed about 10 hours ago.  It was a bad solder joint in the field winding at the terminal.  and before that is was a sticky Bendix...  and the time before that... so on.  I wanted to keep the old heavy duty starter as I thought they were bullet proof...  I guess not, its let me down too many times.

It might not have been so bad but my wife and I were on an island, no mechanic on the field, on a Friday afternoon so the FBO left early, not knowing anyone local, with no rental cars available...  Not happy.  

I tried smacking it with hammer, nothing.  I had a volt meter and checked the voltages, all good.  What the hell, lets try hand propping...  What could go wrong right?  Surprisingly nothing went wrong.  My wife operated the throttle and mixtures (for the first time) and I threw blades.  It started after 6-7 blades!!!  All checks good!  Lets go home!

So now I'm ordering a skytec starter, 149-NL (I counted teeth), but is there anything else I need to order to make the swap?  I heard about needing a longer starter cable but can't find solid info on that.  I'm tiring to avoid the plane being grounded for weeks by placing on order for everything instead of placing multiple orders to get the "unknown parts" later.

66E, IO-360 A1A

I have a Skytech LS 12 Volt Starter for a Lycoming IO360A1A.  It is the original Skytech starter, and not the NL inline starter.  It has less than 100 hours on it.  I replaced it as my as the previously installed starter acted up.   But, in late 2020 I decided to change to the inline starter as I have a J type baffling and the solenoid of the LS starter impinged upon the area where the air filter was installed.  The LS starter looks and acts like new.  I will take pictures if anyone is interested, otherwise I will post it on e-bay.   New Aircraft Spruce price is $677.00.  If you can use this model, I would sell it for $450.00 plus shipping.

You can contact me at (617) 877-0025, here or e-mail me at john.breda@gmail.com

John Breda

[ArtVandelay]

I just replaced my Skytec after only 500 hours…I would go with B&C if it fit, I will pay more for better quality.

[mike20papa]

Have been utilizing a 149NL for 10 yrs and no regrets.

[jetdriven]

1 hour ago, ArtVandelay said:

I just replaced my Skytec after only 500 hours…I would go with B&C if it fit, I will pay more for better quality.

If you don’t have a core for trade, the B&C is actually less. 

[hammdo]

I did replace my sky-tec  with a new one but also did the relay - as the relay had excessive resistance when hot -- kept doing the 'click' thing on me...

-Don

[DXB]

3 hours ago, flyingchump said:

So yesterday my starter pissed me off for the last time...  It decided it didn't want to work again...  I hear a healthy click from the starter solenoid but nothing else.  No starter rotation at all.  This has happened before and the starter was IRAN'ed about 10 hours ago.  It was a bad solder joint in the field winding at the terminal.  and before that is was a sticky Bendix...  and the time before that... so on.  I wanted to keep the old heavy duty starter as I thought they were bullet proof...  I guess not, its let me down too many times.

It might not have been so bad but my wife and I were on an island, no mechanic on the field, on a Friday afternoon so the FBO left early, not knowing anyone local, with no rental cars available...  Not happy.  

I tried smacking it with hammer, nothing.  I had a volt meter and checked the voltages, all good.  What the hell, lets try hand propping...  What could go wrong right?  Surprisingly nothing went wrong.  My wife operated the throttle and mixtures (for the first time) and I threw blades.  It started after 6-7 blades!!!  All checks good!  Lets go home!

So now I'm ordering a skytec starter, 149-NL (I counted teeth), but is there anything else I need to order to make the swap?  I heard about needing a longer starter cable but can't find solid info on that.  I'm tiring to avoid the plane being grounded for weeks by placing on order for everything instead of placing multiple orders to get the "unknown parts" later.

66E, IO-360 A1A

I replaced my Skytec with a B&C BC315 Lycoming Starter -  https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/bcstarterlyc.php  Supposedly more bulletproof.  Weighs 1 lb extra.  Costs extra $100 or so (negligible as aviation expenses go). I don't think special parts needed but they have good customer service - just call to make sure.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, DXB said:

I replaced my Skytec with a B&C BC315 Lycoming Starter -  https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/bcstarterlyc.php  Supposedly more bulletproof.  Weighs 1 lb extra.  Costs extra $100 or so (negligible as aviation expenses go). I don't think special parts needed but they have good customer service - just call to make sure.

I have one on my IO720, it works really well.

Clarence

[MB65E]

I’ll check what model didn’t fit on my airplane. I was surprised. Talked to the B&C rep at Oshkosh. I said I had a fit issue… he responded with “was it on a Mooney?” Lol.

-Matt

[drapo]

18 hours ago, M20F-1968 said:

I have a Skytech LS 12 Volt Starter for a Lycoming IO360A1A.  It is the original Skytech starter, and not the NL inline starter.  It has less than 100 hours on it.  I replaced it as my as the previously installed starter acted up.   But, in late 2020 I decided to change to the inline starter as I have a J type baffling and the solenoid of the LS starter impinged upon the area where the air filter was installed.  The LS starter looks and acts like new.  I will take pictures if anyone is interested, otherwise I will post it on e-bay.   New Aircraft Spruce price is $677.00.  If you can use this model, I would sell it for $450.00 plus shipping.

You can contact me at (617) 877-0025, here or e-mail me at john.breda@gmail.com

John Breda

When I replaced the starter on my M20E with a Lycoming IO360A1A, the approved model from Skytec was #149NL as the #149LS was not recommended for our engines.

I was curious that you installed a #149LS in your F, so I had a look at the Skytec portion of the Hartzell site (They bought Skytec back in 2016) and, on the main page, it shows that #149LS can be used on our IO360A1A. But it also says that the list is not the official one and the PMA list should be used. On that list, the #149LS isn't approved for IO360A1A but for O360A1A, the B, C, D and G engine: (https://hartzell.aero/pma/149-12ls/) . The #149NL (https://hartzell.aero/pma/149nl/) is the one that is PMA'd for IO360A1A equiped  E and F.

 

[jghyde]

I am in the same situation as the OP right now. '64 M20C O360 A1A.

I started having starter problems exactly as described in March 2021. I replaced the starter relay. The problem went away for 8 hours of flight time or so and reappeared. So, I replaced the starter with a bad ass Star-Tec. The problem went away for a few hours and then came back with a vengeance. I got stuck at the first hop out of Oshkosh. Removed the cowl, traced all the wires, tapped on the starter. Finally, a guy on the caravan said it was a stuck bendix (on a brand new starter!) Doused it with WD40 (because that's all I could find at BFE Wisconsin). Got the starter to turn sorta. Kept dousing it. Finally starter started.

Took it back to the A&P who applied spray-on grease on the bendix. Seemed to fix the problem.

Now we are about 10 hours of flight time after the grease of applied and I'm stuck here in east Texas with the starter once again doing the same thing. I doused it with WD40 again. Still no turn. 

The symptoms are when you turn the starter switch right and push it to start, you can hear the ignition field energizing but the starter does not engage and the prop does not turn. I am sick of this GD Mooney. 

[jghyde]

5 minutes ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

 

What model “bad ass Star-Tec” did you install?  I ask because the preferred one, the 149-NL, doesn’t even have a bendix, so that is not where your problem lies.

Good luck with it. It is incredibly frustrating being grounded due to a mechanical problem when you are away from home.  
 

Jim

I don't even know the brand I am so frustrated. It's a Sky Tec that is correct for the plane (it does, after all, work when it works). The little gear that comes out of the starter and connects with the flywheel is called bendix, correct? I can turn it with my index finger and douse it with WD40 when I'm stuck. It provides little comfort.

I am sorry I am not an A&P. Just a CFII. lol

Edited September 6, 2021 by jghyde

[flyingchump]

8 hours ago, jghyde said:

I am in the same situation as the OP right now. '64 M20C O360 A1A.

I started having starter problems exactly as described in March 2021. I replaced the starter relay. The problem went away for 8 hours of flight time or so and reappeared. So, I replaced the starter with a bad ass Star-Tec. The problem went away for a few hours and then came back with a vengeance. I got stuck at the first hop out of Oshkosh. Removed the cowl, traced all the wires, tapped on the starter. Finally, a guy on the caravan said it was a stuck bendix (on a brand new starter!) Doused it with WD40 (because that's all I could find at BFE Wisconsin). Got the starter to turn sorta. Kept dousing it. Finally starter started.

Took it back to the A&P who applied spray-on grease on the bendix. Seemed to fix the problem.

Now we are about 10 hours of flight time after the grease of applied and I'm stuck here in east Texas with the starter once again doing the same thing. I doused it with WD40 again. Still no turn. 

The symptoms are when you turn the starter switch right and push it to start, you can hear the ignition field energizing but the starter does not engage and the prop does not turn. I am sick of this GD Mooney. 

I saw your post on FB.  Sorry to hear about your situation. When my bendix stuck I used a pick with a 90 degree tip to pull the bendix forward just a bit.  It was enough to get it unstuck.  Good luck.

[Yetti]

I have a B and C on my F Mooney. IO 360.

[jghyde]

Here’s an update on my 1964 M20C “starter won’t engage” problem.

I jumped the starter by holding a wire from the red terminal on the battery to the outbound lead on the solenoid that has the wire to the starter connected.

Bypassed the solenoid because we noticed a 3 volt drop (12.5 in v to 9.4 v out ) from the solenoid. Solenoid is new.

After starting, buttoned it up and flew it 2.3 hours home. After landing I shutdown normally. Then figured I’d see if the problem persisted. It cranked back up normally.

Btw, I did all of this with the help of the Mt pleasant airport manager. He’s a great guy!!

Now looking at either lose wire on starter switch, bad starter switch, or bad solenoid (that is brand new). I suspect switch wiring.

The starter is fine.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[jetdriven]

13 hours ago, jghyde said:

Here’s an update on my 1964 M20C “starter won’t engage” problem.

I jumped the starter by holding a wire from the red terminal on the battery to the outbound lead on the solenoid that has the wire to the starter connected.

Bypassed the solenoid because we noticed a 3 volt drop (12.5 in v to 9.4 v out ) from the solenoid. Solenoid is new.

After starting, buttoned it up and flew it 2.3 hours home. After landing I shutdown normally. Then figured I’d see if the problem persisted. It cranked back up normally.

Btw, I did all of this with the help of the Mt pleasant airport manager. He’s a great guy!!

Now looking at either lose wire on starter switch, bad starter switch, or bad solenoid (that is brand new). I suspect switch wiring.

The starter is fine.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Check the p/n of the solenoid.  Battery master solenoids look the same but may not be rated for the amps of a starter 

[M20F]

My first Skytec starter lasted a fuel stop.  Thankfully a rubber mallet fixed it.  My second is going on 12yrs.  I carry a spare in the hat rack.  The day I take the spare out I suspect will be the day the current one fails. 

[Yetti]

We used solenoids to isolate the 2 way radios in the cabs of mixer trucks.  fleet of 200 trucks.  Lots of heat and vibration.    We had some metal can solenoids.   They all failed and replaced with bakeolite solenoids.  Just say no to metal can solenoids.

[jghyde]

1 hour ago, Yetti said:

We used solenoids to isolate the 2 way radios in the cabs of mixer trucks.  fleet of 200 trucks.  Lots of heat and vibration.    We had some metal can solenoids.   They all failed and replaced with bakeolite solenoids.  Just say no to metal can solenoids.

We changed out the starter switch in the cockpit with a new one. The problem still exists. Checked all wires and connections... Now we are back looking at the solenoid that was installed in July 2021 (2 mos ago).

 

[M20F-1968]

On 9/5/2021 at 10:56 AM, drapo said:

When I replaced the starter on my M20E with a Lycoming IO360A1A, the approved model from Skytec was #149NL as the #149LS was not recommended for our engines.

I was curious that you installed a #149LS in your F, so I had a look at the Skytec portion of the Hartzell site (They bought Skytec back in 2016) and, on the main page, it shows that #149LS can be used on our IO360A1A. But it also says that the list is not the official one and the PMA list should be used. On that list, the #149LS isn't approved for IO360A1A but for O360A1A, the B, C, D and G engine: (https://hartzell.aero/pma/149-12ls/) . The #149NL (https://hartzell.aero/pma/149nl/) is the one that is PMA'd for IO360A1A equiped  E and F.

 

When I did my rebuild, I sent the engine to Penn Yan.  They chose and installed the starter.  They would not have used the starter if it was inappropriate.  I have an approved modification on the engine and have a J Cowling and a J style air filter.  That is why I changed the starter.

John Breda

[drapo]

18 hours ago, M20F-1968 said:

When I did my rebuild, I sent the engine to Penn Yan.  They chose and installed the starter.  They would not have used the starter if it was inappropriate.  I have an approved modification on the engine and have a J Cowling and a J style air filter.  That is why I changed the starter.

John Breda

I have the original E cowling and installed the 149NL that was the PMA from Sky-Tek, I guess PennYan erred this time, they're not perfect! If you do a search, you'll see that those that have installed the 149LS on the injected IO360 are having problems with hot and very cold starts. 

[M20F-1968]

2 hours ago, drapo said:

I have the original E cowling and installed the 149NL that was the PMA from Sky-Tek, I guess PennYan erred this time, they're not perfect! If you do a search, you'll see that those that have installed the 149LS on the injected IO360 are having problems with hot and very cold starts. 

Never had an issue with either.  

John

[jghyde]

Starting problems checklist

I have been through hell and back fixing a persistent starting problem on an M20C. Here's my checklist of how I'd handle the situation next time and save money.

1. Symptom - propeller will not engage. Likely a power issue. Change the battery even if your 3- to 5-year-old battery seems to be otherwise normal. Change the battery. I recommend Concorde RG-35 AXC.

2. Symptom - Propeller still will not engage after changing battery. Lube the bendix wheel on the starter. Use silicon.

3. Symptom - Propeller will turn with starter but engine will not fire, especially during hot outside temps. Change the spark plugs. 99% of the time it's the old spark plugs. I use Fine Wires.