More questions

[dmc]

Ive just started looking at a Mooneys but still have some questions.  I'm looking at adds for planes for sale for less than 50k.  I'm a student pilot so I'm really just looking at this point.  But it seams that every plane has had a gear up accedent at some point.  Is this mainly pilot error or is there something else going on?   

I think that for the price I'm looking at the M20C is the realistic choice.  Can 4 people actually fit in one for a couple of hours?  What is a average useful load. 

I'm trying to decied between the Cessna 172, Cherokee 180, or the Mooney.  This will be my first plane and I would rather get something that I will keep for a while.  But like everyone I also want to get value for my dollar.  The Mooney will cost me more in insurance, and I imagine the annuals will also run more.  But it is faster, and from what Ive read well built.  But they all have the same brand of engine. 

I'll be using the plane mostly to visit family, most live within 300 miles, and a few trips a year in the 1000 to 1500 mile range.  At least this is what I hope to do.  My wife and I are both retired so we have the time. 

I'm training in the Cessna, and it wont be any trouble getting some hours in a Cherokee.  Ive seen a few Mooneys around and hopefully I'll be able to go up in one also.  I wont be buying anything soon and I wont be buying anything without some time in one.  I'm just trying to narrow down my search. 

Should I hold out for a E or F?  Are they a big step up?  I'd really rather spend closer to 40K in case something comes up. 

Is there someone that I could hire when the time comes to help look for a Mooney if I decied thats what I want.  Someone who is familer with the brand and what to look for so I don't buy someone else's problem.  What would this cost?

 

 

[gregwatts]

Join MAPA,

Get flight time in all of the aircraft you mentioned.

For the missions you mentioned, sounds like a Mooney may be a reasonable choice. If the majority of your flights will be with 2 people, a C or E model will be fine. If you will be carrying 3 or 4, then an F model would be better.

Read all of the posts on this site......sift thru the opinions and take notes.

The 172 is easier to get in and out of....but have a built in headwind. The Cherokee 180 is a great plane, also. It is kinda like buying a car....some like Ford and some like Toyota.....I drive a Volvo.

I would get the liscence first, rent for a few missions, then start figuring out what you need.

My opinion only!

[garytex]

To decide between Mooneys, look at the MAPA site and see the E F and C flight tests. they are wonderful info sources.  Join Avaition Consumer and look at their multitude of airplane reviews.  

I just completed my complex rating, transitioning from 400 hrs in a 170 taildragger and 600 hrs in a Cheetah to an M20 F today.  I made the transition, but there is lots going on in the cockpit, it's all happening fast, as all the speeds are faster, and the consequences for being a little off attitude, gear, flaps, manifold pressure or speed are all harder to cure than in simpler airplanes.  I was frequently behind the airplane but by the end of the day took the plane home and made the most soul satisfying landing I've made in a long time.  The Mooney is harder to land but easier to fly, stable in pitch and heading, and goes like the hammers of hell on surprisingly little fuel.  If you decide on a complex airplane, you might want to learn the basics well in a simple airplane, then transition.  You don't want to beat your complex airplane up doing touch and goes, do you?  Alternatively, if you have the time, (because it will take longer) learn in a plane you own and intend to keep.  I learned in a taildragger at an airport on top of a high hill, with roiling air and down drafts on approach and roiling updrafts off the other end.  It took longer, but I didn't care, and after that I could land anything with great finesse.  And that was very satisfying.

Have fun

Gary 

[scottfromiowa]

Like anything, you get what you pay for.  Lots of posts discuss your questions.  Read and learn.  $40k WILL buy a Mooney, but it will also likely be buying a plane without updates and that will likely require maintenance $.  Get some time in a Cherokee, or BUY one as you can get a better Cherokee for the money you wish to spend than Mooney.  If you prefer (Cherokee) or don't dislike vs. the Cessna you will be fine in a Mooney.

[flight2000]

You didn't mention the size of the 4 people flying (kids versus adults), but my advice in addition to the above would be to get a hold of some weight and balance figures for any aircraft you are looking at.  Running some of your typical mission loads may surprise you with what you can carry in the cabin versus fuel in the tanks.  

Brian

[danb35]

A 1000+ mile (one way) trip is going to be a very long trip in any vintage Mooney, at least if you intend to do it in one day.  They're great planes, but this might be a bit much.

[dmc]

Thanks, the longer trips will just be the wife and I.  With the need to stop every 2 hours or so for the wifes bathroom breaks, we could always choose to stop if the longer trips wear to much on us.  As to the 4 persons, it would be my son and his wife along for the shorter trips, 200 miles or so.  All of us together would weigh around 700lbs. 

I'm not locked into the 40k price, just looking at what that will buy at this time.  I would rather spend more now and get what I want instead of settling for something and then having to trade latter.  I hate dealing with selling cars and I guess I generally sell cheap as I don't want to fool with it.  I recently sold some old Porsches that I had.  Sold them all in a day,  guess I had them priced right.

[jax88]

I've got a '75 F and routinely make longer trips (Texas to Las Vegas, Texas to North Carolina, Texas to Florida - ironically enough they all work out to around 1,200 NM) with the wife.  We have discovered that aside from fuel, our biggest limitation is biology, not spacial comfort.  If you're a restless person, you will be restless in any aircraft.

[carusoam]

"Is there someone that I could hire when the time comes to help look for a Mooney if I decied thats what I want." - dmc

This is often called a broker.  It adds some cost to your transaction.  Does not often add value to your transaction.

My favorite is All American Aircraft in San Antonio.  You can go there and see, touch and feel 20 different Mooneys, tire kick and help identify what is best for you.

Be careful, it's like going to a puppy store, it's easy to take one home.

In your short list of 172, 180 and M20C... The 172 is underpowered.  The 182 is the more apples to apples comparison (I think).

Best regards,

-a-

[GeorgePerry]

Quote: dmc

Ive just started looking at a Mooneys but still have some questions.  I'm looking at adds for planes for sale for less than 50k.  I'm a student pilot so I'm really just looking at this point.  But it seams that every plane has had a gear up accedent at some point.  Is this mainly pilot error or is there something else going on?   

 

[flight2000]

Quote: dmc

Thanks, the longer trips will just be the wife and I.  With the need to stop every 2 hours or so for the wifes bathroom breaks, we could always choose to stop if the longer trips wear to much on us.  As to the 4 persons, it would be my son and his wife along for the shorter trips, 200 miles or so.  All of us together would weigh around 700lbs. 

I'm not locked into the 40k price, just looking at what that will buy at this time.  I would rather spend more now and get what I want instead of settling for something and then having to trade latter.  I hate dealing with selling cars and I guess I generally sell cheap as I don't want to fool with it.  I recently sold some old Porsches that I had.  Sold them all in a day,  guess I had them priced right.

[Hank]

I've put four adults into my C a few times. The longest was flying the length of the NC Outer Banks, 1500' agl in August with two adult males and two boys in college. For that flight, 200 + 220 + 160 + 180 = 760 lbs, leaving 210 lbs ¸  6 = 34 gallons of gas, or 3 hours plus reserve. But we all wanted to go to Kitty Hawk, so I fueled carefully and we went; then I refueled at Manteo and we went back.

Long XC takes time in anything that's not a jet. 1000 nm makes for a couple of days without being too tired. I once took the wife 1320 nm in 3 days each way, and had time to go sightseeing at our stops along the way in both directions.

In my experience, I usually run out of space in the back well before I run out of useful load [except for the one trip above]. My wife enjoys taking half of our house with us when she travels . . .

I also bought the plane six weeks after my PPL checkride, much of that time spent checking out the plane and talking to the bank. It's very doable for a conscientious new pilot with a CFI who KNOWS Mooneys. I also attended a MAPA PPP the month after my required dual instruction. Check out www.mooneypilots.com for lots of good information, a couple of free reviews and information on the Pilot Proficiency Program. It's the best way to learn your new Mooney, even if it hasn't been "new" for several decades.

[jetdriven]

We've done a 1000 NM day in our J once. Took off at 6:30 from Erie, landed at memphis 2M8 (recommended) for fuel, and was in Houston by 1:30 PM.  65% power, total trip fuel was around 65-68 gallons IIRC.   Just leave real early. 

[rbridges]

check your insurance quotes.  It's probably going to be in the $12-1500 range, but it would be good to get an idea before the purchase.  With insurance, being a low time pilot is like being a 16 year old wanting to buy a car.

[MARZ]

My expreience with insurance - Newly minted PPL  95 hours I bought my 67 F - paid right around 2400 for the first year of insurance - This year it dropped to 1200. 

I bought my plane right so the hull value the first year was < 40K   I increased that with the improvements I've put in over the last year.  So I actually got higher coverage for less money.  

[rbridges]

Quote: maropers

My expreience with insurance - Newly minted PPL  95 hours I bought my 67 F - paid right around 2400 for the first year of insurance - This year it dropped to 1200. 

I bought my plane right so the hull value the first year was < 40K   I increased that with the improvements I've put in over the last year.  So I actually got higher coverage for less money.  

[Hank]

Quote: rbridges

check your insurance quotes.  It's probably going to be in the $12-1500 range, but it would be good to get an idea before the purchase.  With insurance, being a low time pilot is like being a 16 year old wanting to buy a car.

[MATTS875]

I only had 200 hours and was debating on buying a comanche 250 or the mooney. I am a private pilot with no IFR and for the comanche was 4600 for a year and the 1966 mooney m20e I bought was only 1330 a year with a value of 50k.I thought that was very reasonable having no retract time.

[DaV8or]

My advice would be to finish your PPL and your IR (you will really need this for your stated missions) in rental planes. Then take your family on a flying vacation in a rental plane. If all goes well, your family really enjoys it and everybody can tollerate the flexibility in schedule that is required cross country flying, then I say go shopping. By this time, you'll really start to form your own opinion on which airplane is best for you. 

[Seth]

The M20C is a great plane for your mission considering price point - I had an F and the extra space, useful load (1017lbs), and 10 extra gallons make make a bit more sense - probably one of the best Mooney Values for the money.  The M20C however may be the best bank for buck you can get in avation.

George noted some great aircraft availalbe for low cost as well - C-172, PA-28, AA-5 - all lower cost fixed gear more simple aircraft (AA-1 is two seats, I'd get something with four if you are indeed going to take mutltipe passengers up - but you'd be suprised how often you fly alone or with one passenger).  Another choice for you may be to get a 1/2 share of a 182 - Great plane for carying people, just flying around, and cross country.  Fixed gear, similar speed to a C, maybe a tad slower depending on the model, burns more gas, but very sturdy, and more or less the SUV/Pickup Truck of GA - an all around good plane.  I personally decided on the Mooney (but a 182 is a great plane).

Take care,

-Seth

[jkb458]

Quote: maropers

My expreience with insurance - Newly minted PPL  95 hours I bought my 67 F - paid right around 2400 for the first year of insurance - This year it dropped to 1200. 

I bought my plane right so the hull value the first year was < 40K   I increased that with the improvements I've put in over the last year.  So I actually got higher coverage for less money.  

[MARZ]

Quote: jkb458

 

Best regards,

Jeff

[Z W]

In my experience, the C model is a great plane for flights with one passenger. Two adult passengers is not bad - the one in the back seat can sit "side-saddle" and has adequate leg room. It works perfect for me, my wife, and our one small child. Four big adults makes for an uncomfortable ride for everyone involved - even the front passengers are crammed up next to the dash. You also can't carry more than a couple hours of fuel with reserve, but then again, everybody will be more than ready to get out after 2 hours.

Useful load on mine is 950lbs, and unless you're packing in 4 big adults, you won't have any trouble staying under.

The other non-Mooney models people list are fine alternatives, but you will be going slower or burning more GPH.

You can find very nicely equipped C models right now in the $40-50k range. Best of luck with the PPL.

Zane, N6811N, 1968 M20C Ranger

[DrBill]

I'm a new Mooney owner (3 months).  I flew for 4 years before becoming an owner of a Beech Sundowner.  I flew that plane all up and down the East coast and primarily bought it for my Instrument Rating.  When my partner wanted to get out I used that an a reason to upgrade. I have over 500 hrs TT and 300 of that in the Beech which I flew for 7 years. I bought the Model E based upon a recommendation from a pilot and C owner at my airport.  I am NOT disappointed. The E is a BIG change from the Sundowner which is very similar to the 172, Cherokee 180 and others.

If I had to do it over again, I would do the same thing.  Get some experience in a fixed gear A/C, get your instrument, and work into the complex aircraft (Arrow, Mooney, etc).  Then buy one with everything you want. or think you want.

Worked for me for < $50K

BILL

 

 

[dmc]

Thanks everyone,  there is a short bodied Mooney tied down at the FBO where I'm taking my lessons.  Hopefully I can get a good look at it and talk to the owner some.  I'm sure there are others hid away in the hangers.  And there are several other airports nearby.  We probably won't be hauling 4 very often, but the wife is big on having a 4 seater.  The only thing I have been in is a 172, so I have nothing to compare with.  I looked at the Pipers today, but didn't get in one to see how much room there is in the back. 

We are going to Florida for a few weeks in January and maybe I can get her to go look at a few planes when we are down there, to get an idea on size.  And I can look at our finances to determine how much I really want to spend.